Hi,

I've installed my 990 and am awaiting a set of speaker cables. In the mean time, I've been playing with the settings via an old pair of head phones. So far, I'm pleased with the 990 and with it's capabilites, although I'm far from exploiting them all.

My question is this: for a surround sound setup, what is the best DVD/CD player option? Will a blu-ray or Toshiba High Def player produce also the best in 5.1 sound? What are the choices and most practical options here, given I also have a 50" plasma and am looking for high definition.

Any and all information appreciated &

thanks,

John

A Blu-ray or HD-DVD player will give you access to one of the new formats and will give you access to CD and standard DVD (except for Sony's BD player, which doesn't play CD's), but you're looking at more money ($400 or more for HD-DVD, closer to $1000 or more for a decent Blu-ray player, or $500 to $600 for a PS3 plus $25 for a remote control that isn't a game controller). For either format, you'd want to get a player with multichannel analog outputs (which rules out the Toshiba HD-A2 and the PS3 but leaves all of the others in play) to get access to the new audio formats.

Another option is to get a good upscaling DVD player now as a DVD and CD transport and wait for the HD format war to move a bit farther forward. Under that approach, good players can be had for $150 to $250. One that is often mentioned online is OPPO (either the $150 970HD or the $230 981HD that I\'m using these days ). Players like this will give you access to DVD-Audio and SACD and will help wring the most possible potential out of your existing DVD library. With LG starting to sell a combo HD-DVD/Blu-ray player (assuming they can get the iHD support to the point that the DVD Forum will let them officially claim HD-DVD support), we can expect our options to improve on the HD front this year. A combo player (or even a combo/universal that included support for DVD-Audio and SACD) would help provide some protection against getting on the wrong side of the current format war.

Gonk, that OPPO 981 is very appealing, especially considering the price, in light of its capacities.

I read the review; thanks for the link. Did you write it?

I did not know that Blu-ray will not play cd's; this is tragic.

This OPPO may do the trick, for now.

Thanks, Gonk!

John

P.s. as a side note, I've been turning off my 990, at night, from the rear, as I do my computer. I've noticed I lose my FM presets. I assume, therefore, that it's alright to leave the rear master switch on, all the time?

Also, there are no filters for the radio section of the unit; correct?

Again, thanks,

John

I purchased a first generation hd dvd player, the hd-a1, in August 2006 for $364 shipped. If cost is an issue, I would tend to agree with Gonk that, waiting a bit for things to shake out between the two formats and combo players, might be the smartest thing to do...but I would compare the cost of any sd upscaling player you might purchase, to what you can get a hd-a1 for now. Some are finding them relatively cheap, at times under $300, and if you are paying $150-$250 for a sd upscaler, why not get an hd-a1 that will play hd dvd's on your plasma? Most people have reported it upscales sd dvd's pretty well, comparable to most sd upscalers in the price range we are talking about, and it will play 2 channel audio CD's better than sd upscalers....comes down to heavy duty design (the exterior was built like a tank), and some high end (for sub $1k players) audio components. The other advantage of a hd-a1, over even the G2 entry level hd-a2, is that it has analog outputs....5.1, not 7.1, but they are still a great advantage. If I were going to lean toward waiting, it would be to get a player that had 7.1 outs, especially important given the 990's lack of hdmi....I think I read one of the new/recent BR players was supposed to have 7.1 outs, but it is a lot more expensive. Don't get me wrong the hd-a1 does come with some widely published warts, slow loading times, occasional playback glitch, sometimes maddening hdcp quirks, possible lack of updates now that toshiba has the G2 players, but it does produce outstanding audio and video playback, and has been a particularly good match with my outlaw 990.

john

I did write the review for the 981HD (I've accumulated a few of them over the last four or five years). Not all Blu-ray players are lacking CD support - the PS3 will play them (necessary for legacy PS support, I believe), as will the Panasonic and Samsung.

It's perfectly fine to leave the master power switch on all the time - that's the intent, actually.

The HD-A1 does apparently do a very good job with scaling regular DVD's, but most comparisons I've read have indicated that it's not actually better than the OPPO 971/981 players - some actually prefer the OPPO to the Toshiba for standard DVD's. Also, the HD-A2 does not have any multichannel analog output (5.1 or otherwise) - you have to go to the XA2 in the second generation players to get multichannel analog output.

Thank you both for your responses.

Forgive my naivety, but, with the digital interconnects, co-axle and optical, why would analog outputs be an issue or a desire, at all?

Also, is there any chance that the XA2 upscales better than the Oppo? Also, does the XA2 have all the audio format features and functions of the Oppo?

thanks,

John

guess "any" was a little too much. In this case "any" meant those I have read about...big difference than all. Modified the post.

The short answer to why the analog outs on a High Definition player are important is that you can't get the full benefits of the new HD audio formats on coax or tosilink cables, not enough bandwidth is the reason most often given for why they won't work over them. You can hear the formats with hdmi connections, but the 990 does not have hdmi. Analogs can be used to send the new formats to your 990. In the case of the toshiba's, you can still get improved audio compared to sd dvds, on the coax/tosilink because of a conversion "trick" done by the player, I think it was labeled something like a "surprise" DTS mode.

Multichannel analog are required for certain formats - specifically DVD-Audio, SACD, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS HD. DVD-A and SACD are restricted to analog or a few digital connections (the proprietary connections like DenonLINK and industry standards IEEE-1394 and HDMI). DD Plus, TrueHD, and DTS HD take more bandwidth than SPDIF (coaxial/optical) can offer, and thus can only be passed digitally using HDMI (either as multichannel PCM using HDMI v1.1 or as digital bitstreams using HDMI v1.3) Check out my HDMI FAQ for some of the nasty details. For regular DVD and CD activities, you'll want to stay digital.

The XA2 is likely to upscale much like the other Toshiba players. They've already got a good solution in place, and with HD-DVD being the main purpose I doubt they've invested much in making improvements there. The XA2 does not support DVD-Audio or SACD.

Dr_JB

You will need the 5.1 or 7.1 to take advantage of the multi channel audio formats (DVD-A, SACD, Dolby True HD, DTS-HD). Since there is no digital standard for those, multi channel audio (analog) is your only choice.

Hope that simple explanation helps.

I agree that the Toshibas have been well-regarded in their ability to upscale. They've had their problems (load times being the one that the G1 players simply were stuck with, others that Toshiba has done a good job of trying to work through with firmware updates), but the misfortune of Samsung's first BD player highlight the fact that Toshiba did a pretty good job with a first-generation player for a new format.

Of all the choices, then, the Oppo at least does all the audio formats, up to 5.1? I see that none of the Toshiba HD formats are 7.1 capable?

Thanks for your responses!

I've been away from all this stuff since the mid 80's and while there have been definite improvements, they've all come with a price: complexity!

John

Yes, the OPPO does all of the audio formats offered by CD and DVD (plus a few others, like MP3 and Divx), and those are all 5.1 or less.

The only Toshiba HD-DVD player that supports 7.1 is the HD-XA2 ($1000), even though the new HD formats allow for 7.1. (EDIT: the A20 will also do this, but I'm not sure when it'll be out.)

I think that the complexity of HDTV and surround sound have been a significant problem for the average consumer. There are countless stories of people with HDTV's who will go months or years thinking that simply having an HDTV means that you are getting HD broadcasts. There are also plenty of surround sound setups in homes that have never been calibrated and/or that have incorrect bass management settings. Fortunately, sites like this one can help provide a balance to the complexities and waves of technical jargon surrounding home theater.

Yes, and why I agreed that Gonk's advice on waiting until things shake out a bit, and more brands get out there is probably the smart way to go if you are looking to purchase your last HD player. If I were going to purchase a HD player now, it would as an interim player, be the least expensive one I could find, and it would be because I "just need to see hddvd/BR" on my high def display....oh yeah and if I had an outlaw 990 it would have analog outs, cuz no way I am givin up my 990 for some rcvr with hdmi 1.x

john

but still only 5.1 analog outs right? Won't help with the 990 will it?





amen to that...this forum, and you in particular Gonk, have helped me get a grasp of bass management, and blending my sub in smoothly....the 990's bass matrix is rather complicated, and it took a while for me to get things to where they are now.

My bad - even with the XA2, Toshiba still only offers 5.1 analog output. I guess the only HD player to provide 7.1 analog output is still Panasonic with their Blu-ray player...

Gonk,

I get the sense that you're a bit of a sage, here, on this site, the home theater guru. That Panny Blu-Ray's a beauty, but it's $1,500cnd and lacks SACD support.

At this time, would you still recommend the Oppo 981? I thought I'd put the question straight to you, before I actually go out and make the purchase! John's idea about the first generation Toshiba HD player isn't a bad one, either. Which is the more practical of the two choices and why?

Thanks in advance,

John

The current crop of Blu-ray players are a tough sell (unless you want to get a PS3). In my mind, there are two options. If you want to start exploring HD-DVD, don't care about DVD-A and SACD, are in a position to spend around $400, and don't mind the slow load times, the Toshiba has a lot to offer. If, on the other hand, you want to wait a bit to get into the HD format war, then the 981 is a mighty nice value: good upscaling, DVD-A and SACD support, support for an assortment of other audio and video formats, and customer service that is hard to beat. Which choice you make is not for me to decide (it's too dependent on your needs and interests), but personally I'm sticking with the 981 for the time being. In my case, it's two-fold: I already have a smal library of DVD-A and SACD, and I am unwilling to invest in either of the new formats until they mature a bit more. My plan is to wait, hopefully for a combo HD-DVD/Blu-ray player with support for DVD-A and SACD.

Gonk,

all my cd's are ten years or older and so I'm assuming I don't have SACD's.

The other problem is that as I'm in Canada, the HD-A1 doesn't seem readily available and the border issues make purchases more complex and costly.

I'm all for a good, practical deal and the 981 seems like a good stop gap.

Thanks for your reply and for the information.

John

SACD's are specifically marked (and don't play in CD players unless they're hybrid), so I'm really sure you don't have any either. I'd definitely agree that the 981HD should provide you a really good stop gap.

Gonk,

after all I've read and given the situation, I'm leaning towards the 981.

thanks for your help!

John

I am an audiophile. May I ask you look at Denon and not Oppo. Albeit Oppo costs so litte yet the performance in the new 30 series Denon DVD players (2390Ci and 3930ci) are a big difference due to their design. The Oppo uses cheap Op amps in the output stages.

For vide, both of these two Denons use the Silicon Optix Realtex HQV processor. The 3930ci uses teh best one and these players upconvert DVD to 1080p over HDMI better than Oppo can .

I'm not sure that's appropriate in this case. Since Dr_JB doesn't have any SACD's and likely no DVD-Audio discs either, he'll be using the digital output only. At that point, the extra cost for a more robust analog section is not going to be used at all - not to mention that a 2930 or 3920 will cost more than the HD-DVD player he had also be contemplating. The Realta chip is a more powerful chip than the Faroudja that the 981HD has, but the differences are going to be minor at the video performance level that both players offer (OPPO has tweaked the software for the Faroudja chip about as far as it can be taken). If he's only going to be feeding a digital bitstream to his 990, he's probably best going with the 981HD now and waiting for the format war to clear up before investing more.

I agree with Gonk. Not having enough money to be Lizard King's kind of audiophile, I have to turn my back on the best there is and just look for the best I can afford. I guess that, plus eagerness, is why I have a $150 Pioneer universal player feeding the 990's DACs. Alas, I'd never heard of Oppo when I bought it.
BTW has anyone had any experience with Mapleshade interconnects? They're unusual in having very small-caliber bare wires insulated by loose-fitting plastic film sleeves; they look fragile and weird but of course the maker claims they're the greatest thing since bottled beer. There's a digital coax cable which at $42 for a meter is about at the top of my affordable range.

I'm in the same situation as psyprof1; although I thank everyone for their input, especially gonk. I know the Denons are a favourite of the audiophiles, but at this time, perhaps it is better to wait, even if the Denons can be afforded (which, as Gonk explained, are more money than the High def players).

I think in my case, for now, the most practical choice is the Oppo 981, as gonk suggests.

Again, thank you all.

John

Gonk and psyprof1,

my Totem Hawks are now mostly broken in and so I've been playing with my system a little more.

I have a Panasonic S29 DVD/CD player and while the video quality is really quite good, for 480p, the sound is just terrible, even from my very best cd's. While I only have stereo speakers (waiting for my DQ10's rebuild), when watching movies, conversation is overshadowed by sound effects; it makes it difficult to enjoy or even experience a movie (I've been using an old pair of Sony digital head phones, instead).

I guess the reason I'm writing is because I'm a bit concerned about sound quality, after experiencing how bad it is with my S29. Will the Oppo 981 be a major upgrade, in the audio department?

In your sage opinions, how long will it be before a decent HD DVD player is available, with the highest audio capabilities, for somewhat reasonable money?

Thanks,

John

Having used my dad's Panasonic S35 some, I suspect that the 981HD would be a nice video upgrade to boot - Panasonic's DVD players at that time were not up to the standard that Panasonic set with players like the RP91 and RP82.

How do you have the S29 connected to your Model 990? If you are using analog cables, that's going to be a significant factor in your problems. If you are already using a digital audio cable (either coax or optical), we may want to take a look at how you have the 990 configured - there may be an issue with speakers being turned on that shouldn't be or some surround mode problems.

In considering an HD DVD player, are you thinking specifically about the HD-DVD format, the Blu-ray format, or a combo player supporting both formats? HD-DVD players can be had for under $500 today that will support Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD (especially if you are willing to settle with the lower boot and load times of a first-gen player, since HD-A1's are being cleared out under $400 from what I've heard). If you want a combo player (which is what I'd prefer to hold out for), it'll probably be at least a year before a good-performing player at a decent price is possible.

Gonk,

yes, I'm using a digital coax cable.

How would the audio section of the HD-A1 compare to the Oppo981?

thanks,

John

Gonk,

I opened the manual (always a good idea) and started reading; wow, this pre/pro is a powerful and versatile unit (I had no idea). There are so many setup options that it makes my head spin. The advantages are obvious, but the complexity is a little overwhelming, at least at this point.

I will play with the settings to see what affect the choices have, on all my listening experiences, DVD, CD, Tuner and Sat box. Wow!

I have one problem, though, with speaker setup. I know I chose to set my main speakers to large (Totem, floor standing, Hawks) and while I have all the other settings at “none,” it won't allow me to turn Surr L/R to the “none” position, despite the fact that I don't have these speakers. It will allow me to change this setting between small and large, but not to “none.” And, now, for some reason, it won't let me change the main speakers back to small; it stays at large. Do you have any idea why this is happening?

thanks,

John

The HD-A1's analog audio section is at least as good as the 981HD's, but it doesn't support DVD-Audio or SACD - and for regular DVD viewing and CD listening you'll want to use the digital output from either player anyway, at which point the two will be basically indistinguishable since the analog work will be handed off to the 990.

There's definitely a lot of processing power packed into the 990, and the manual is good about presenting it in a pretty accessible manner. I offered some comments on your speaker setup issues here just a minute ago - the dialog problems you have been having could have been the result of having the center channel turned on even though there wasn't a center speaker present. You might want to set things up as I described in that other thread and re-visit those DVD's a bit to see if the dialog intelligibility improves.

Gonk,

there's an outfit nearby, that has the HD-A1, on sale for $299. If it works out, I may pick one up and if not, no matter. I think the priority, at this time, is to get my DQ10's rebuilt, a process that will take at least a couple of months. I figure the longer I wait, the more options I'll have; however, if I can get the HD-A1 for this price, I might bite; would you?

Thanks for the setup guidance. I'll make the changes in the menu. I had it as you describe, only the Surr L/R were/are at Large and not at small (which might account for the emphasis on the background sounds, rather than on conversation?). I'll make the switch now. Sorry to learn there’s a glitch, although once I have all the speakers, it shouldn’t be a problem; correct?

I sure am enjoying all this, Love It!

Thanks for your help.

John

For me, I'd still get the 981HD, but I make use of the DVD-Audio and SACD support offered by the 981HD (plus the HD-A1's load times would drive my wife nuts). That's purely me, though - the $300 price for an HD-A1 does offer a nice value: good upscaling of regular DVD's plus a chance to get your feet wet with one of the new HD formats.

$299 is a good deal on the toshiba...if that is $CAN, then probably better than you could even pick one up on ebay. You may want to look at this link for more information on the audio side of the hd-a1. As Gonk said the load times are slow when compared to regular dvd players...and there are some other quirks to the player. You have to decide, but if it were me, I would buy the player because I wanted to view HDDVD movies on your plasma. If you don't need HD now, or will get frustrated by an occasional playback glitch, even at the great price you probably won't be happy with a hd-a1.

mm_half3,

thanks for the response. I assume the HD-XA1 is plagued with the same problems as the HD-A1? It's also available, for slightly more money.

The more I think about it, given that it'll be at least two more months before I have all my speakers, I may as well just wait. These days, a lot can change in a few months.

Again, thanks for the response.

John

The HD-XA1 is basically the same as the HD-A1 aside from a few upgrades (fancier faceplate, backlit version of the same remote, and a serial port). As far as quirks and load times, it's going to be the same sort of situation as the HD-A1.

I'll wait.

This pre/pro is amazing.

Sorry, not to digress, but I value your judgment, Gonk, given you’re knowledgeable and so helpful. I figure you're going to read this and so:

Given I'm currently only driving a pair of speakers, either side of my TV, is there any harm in choosing DD+DVS S-SP Wide for tuner listening? The effect seems to suit the setup very well, but I'm only driving a pair of speakers (I don't know if this is the intent of the mode, or not, as the manual’s outline doesn’t elaborate any further)?

I can't get over the near limitless ability to adjust for sound. Whenever I test a system, I take my very old, Led Zeppelin cd, "Houses of the Holy," to play "Ocean," given the wide sound spectrum. I played around with the settings, fine-tuning to the point where I was satisfied with what I was listening to. I'm very pleased with this pre/pro and can't get over its power to price, ratio! How much better can you get than this; seriously?

Thanks,

John

That mode should be a fine fit for running two speakers.