OK! I have the 990 and 7125 and am in the process of looking for a DVD player and front projector and screen. Here's the issue, what is the best way to hook this all up, considering the DVI connections on the 990.

What are you guys doing? Are you using a DVI to HDMI adapter and running the audio separately? Or do you have all DVI equipment? I am debating whether or not buying a projector or DVD player with HDMI is an advantage or disadvantage, considering the DVI connections on the 990.

I am looking at the Oppo DVD players, and have narrowed my choices for front projectors down to either the Optoma HD72 or the Sanyo PLVZ5. The Sanyo has HDMI and the Optoma has DVI. The same goes for the Oppo players, one has DVI the others have HDMI.

What are the advantages/disadvantages here. It seems the more I learn the more confused I get. Maybe that what the industry intended?

Sorry if this seems like endless rambling, but I am getting confused.

My main mode of use will be DVD's and stereo music.

Help Please!

Thanks Again,

Tim

Hi Tkolody,
The only thing you must really be careful with is the HDCP thingy ...
make sur your projector has it...
I have a HDMI dvd player and a DVI HTPC going through my 1070 to a DVI projector
and the only fussy component is the DVD player...
Someone likes to be turned on last
Damn HDCP!

Seems to me that the most prudent thing to do at this point in time is to buy nothing unless it is fully HDMI 1.3 capable. If that means waiting a few months or more - so be it.

1080p projectors with HDMI 1.3 connectivity will be reasonably priced by the end of the summer.

Outlaw will finally get its act together with its next generation pre/pro - which will no doubt support the full suite of HDMI capabilities. I'm guessing some time in 2008 at the latest.

Once the dust settles over the HD-DVD vs BlueRay debacle - the player you buy will be HDMI 1.3 compliant.

Be patient. If everyone stops buying the non-compliant stuff right now it will only speed up the supply of properly-equipped units.

HDMI is a mess, and stuff like this (or the issues that created a need for this, to be more precise) doesn't help. Check out the HDMI FAQ in my sig, it may help a bit...

I am using DVI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-DVI cables for video and then using SPDIF (coaxial or optical) for audio except for DVD-A and SACD (which are coming from my Oppo 981HD via 5.1 analog).

The only times that HDMI really has an audio advantage are DVD-A/SACD (it can eliminate the 5.1 analog if both the universal disc player and the receiver or processor do HDMI v1.1+) and the new HD formats (HD-DVD and Blu-ray). For DVD, HD cable, HD satellite, and even the PS3 (as a game console) the audio you get via HDMI is the exact same thing you get via SPDIF (coax and optical).

Thanks Gonk. The cited article supports exactly what I have said.

"Wait a few months from now": the article talks about compliance testing to be in place by the end of the first quarter 2007.

"Fully HDMI capable" and "support the full suite of HDMI capabilities": the article talks about the problems with handshaking and how not all products with HDMI 1.3 will provide the full feature set. My caution is to wait and to only buy those products that meet the specs AND provide all of the available features (like "greater video resolutions and color depth" as well as "uncompressed surround sound formats.")

My advice remains unchanged: wait a few months (to as much as a year) and only buy those products that are fully compliant AND which offer the full range of HDMI 1.3 capabilities. Do your reasearch before buying - and don't settle for less. Retailers will get the message and pass the word quickly to the manufacturers - as the article says - and why I said "it will only speed up the supply of properly-equipped units."

Jeff Mackwood

Good point Jeff,
but I still don't see the point of sending audio (digital or not) to my projector
as far as I know some DVI projectors are 1080p ready...
and one can squint at a 20inch screen and wait...
for the dust to settle...
or enjoy a screen you can measure in feet...
with roughly the same price tag as a decent size plasma or lcd
uncompressed digital video is awesome...
but 720p in analog component can be just as jaw-dropping on a well adjusted ''beamer''...
Being there already...I can easily wait
but I know I can never go back....

Okay! It seems HDMI is in the same boat as VESA was for the computer a few years back. SO waiting and or investing "lightly" seems to be the best thing to do. Or is there another option.....?

Does anyone make a switching box to connect DVI and either digital or analog audio in and HDMI out? If so can someone post a link! Hmmmm...seems like a good product for Outlaw? I am sure everyone who already owns a 990 with DVI would be interested!

Tim

Are you talking about a device that would combine DVI video and some sort of audio into HDMI? No such device exists, and I'm not sure how useful it would actually be - HDMI sources include other audio outputs anyway.

Just some FYI I found on Sanyo's website regarding HDMI 1.3. Some of this has been posted already, but some I haven't seen.



HDMI L.L.C. released the final specifications for the HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) 1.3 standard this past June. Previous versions of HDMI supported resolutions to 1080p and high-bandwidth audio. Now, HDMI 1.3 has a few more "tweaks" to it:


Single-link bandwidth is now increased to 340 MHz from 165 MHz, allowing data rates as fast as 10.2 gigabits per second (Gb/s)


HDMI 1.3 now supports 30-bit, 36-bit and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification


The xvYCC expanded color space is now supported, allowing the display of colors that exceed standard SMPTE-C or REC.709 color gamuts

Other enhancements include a new "mini" HDMI connector, lip sync error (latency) correction, and support for new, lossless compressed digital audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD.

HDMI COMPATIBILITY ISSUES

In a Cedia Expo meeting with representatives of HDMI Licensing L.L.C. it was revealed that numerous interfacing problems have been documented between the new blue laser DVD players and current model projectors, rear-projection HDTVs, and flat panel HDTVs.

Some of those problems have included incorrect set-up of the player's output resolution, frequent crashing or locking-up of the player as inputs on a display are changed, or no signal at all between the display and the player.

To date, none of the new blue laser DVD players have been submitted for certification by Simplay Labs, currently the only HDMI-licensed test center. At least one player manufacturer has responded that their own software updates should fix the HDMI signal compatibility issues.

Products that support HDMI 1.3 won't be widely available until the spring of 2007, at which time it is hoped that most of these HDMI compatibility issues will have been resolved.



TIm

Gonk,

Please explain what other audio outputs are included.

Let me also explain my background so everyone is aware where I am coming from.

I have been an avid two channel stereo enthusiast for some years now. I build my own DIY speakers and am in the process of starting a build on a set of three-ways(8", 4", 1" tweeter) which will eventually be every speaker in a 7.1 set-up.

I am a mechanical designer by occupation, currently working in the appliance industry, though most of my background is in automated medical equipment.

Some of my current mismash of equipment is:

(2) NAD C350 Integrated Amps
(1) Marantz 2270 vintage receiver
(1) Adcom 5002 amp
(1) Vintage Kenwood Pre-amp
(1) Vintage Kenwood tuner
(1) Yamaha tuner
(1) Sony XA1ES CDP
(1) Vintage Fisher studio series integrated amp
(1) Pair of A/D/S L710 speakers
(2) Pair of vintage KLH 17 speakers
(1) Pair of DIY two ways
(2) 15" DIY IB subwoofers
Various drivers which will end up in speakers some day.
(4) 250 watt PE plate amps

And of course a 990/7125 combo which I just bought.

An an array various other CDP's DVDP's and other stuff of various brands.

Some of the above equipment will end up in the Home theater I am currently building. Most of the equipment will be new though.

Tim

All of the information about v1.3 is true, and is briefly summarized here in my FAQ . Of course, we haven't seen any sources that can use the greater color depths, so it's debatable when that change will actually be utilized by hardware. The mini connector also hasn't shown up, although we should see camcorders using it at some point.

The compatibility issues have been a problem for years, and HDCP issues (which are the source of most of the problems I've heard about) have existed since HDCP was introduced on DVI. Spring of 2007 will probably still only see a few HDMI v1.3 products on the market (I'd guess no more than half a dozen or a dozen receiver models at the most, assuming even that many have begun shipping, and hopefully a few HD-DVD or Blu-ray players) - at the moment, about the only HDMI v1.3 device is the PS3. To say that HDMI's compatibility issues will be resolved by then seems to be to be a severely optimistic statement. HDCP problems were already old news when I bought my HDTV in spring 2004, after all, and they're still around 2.5 years later.

I just stumbled across this thread and it's good to see some rational dialogue going on about the merits and the flaws of HDMI. Several months ago I posted some comments on both the AVS forum and my home forum (HTF) regarding Outlaw's decision several years ago to wait for HDMI to mature to the point where it was prudent to add it to a receiver. Outlaw was taking some cheap shots from some know-it-alls regarding the use of DVI video switching rather than succumbing to the lure of HDMI and I was defending them. After all HDMI was changing quicker than one changes their sheets and it was a moving target. Although I took a lot of heat on this (I'm used to this - after all, I beta tested the 950!) I still contend that Outlaw made the right choice at the time. HDMI was a complete mess, with various companies interpreting the HDMI standards on their own resulting in some handshaking knightmares. HDMI itself was not completely blameless in this because even though their specs were quite clear, little was being done to assure that manufacturers followed those specs. I'm glad to see that the industry is trying to add some HDMI certification to the process, as gonk pointed out in his reference, and now that some "major retailers" are insisting on all the HDMI products they carry meeting some HDMI criteria this can only help the situation. And for those who constantly insisted that HDMI was just fine with no problems at all it's a wake up call when retailers begin to realize that there has to be some order out of chaos. Time for those people to drop the pollyanna attitude.

That said, HDMI has reached the point where it will in all probability be an integral part of the next Outlaw Pre/pro. There are a number of reasons for this. For one thing there are now some serious products out there (like HD/BR players) that incorporate HDMI output so the need for HDMI switching is greater than in the past. Add to that the fact that the latest firmware versions of both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players now pass the new audio codecs (decoded via PCM) through the HDMI jack and it now becomes important for any receiver from this point forward - especially one capable of handling 7.1 audio - to include HDMI. And while the next generation pre/pro will in all likelihood include HDMI 1.3 it's important to note that even with HDMI 1.1 inputs on a pre/pro you can accept all the latest audio codecs since the decoding is done within the player and not within the processor. I know this for a fact because I own both a Toshiba XA1 (firmware 2.0) and a PS3. Both pass the 7.1 audio codecs just fine into my (temporary) HDMI pre/pro. When the first Outlaw pre/pro with HDMI is released, I'm there.

A couple of other points. Part of the problem with HDMI happens to be with the many misconceptions floating around. One of the biggest errors is thinking that in order to handle 1080p video you must have HDMI 1.3. This is completely wrong. 1080p video as been part of the HDMI spec since version 1.0 and any HDMI jack can handle 1080p. Yes, HDMI 1.3 has added some additional video functionality with greater color depth and bandwidth, but the industry is just catching up with 1080p at this point so I seriously doubt we will see many practical displays (read: consumer) and sources that go beyond "standard" 1080p for a decade or so. Another misconception is that you need HDMI 1.3 to listen to all of the new audio codecs (those out on HD/BR discs and those in the hopper). Yes, it is true that each new generation of HDMI increased the audio capabilities of the previous one (see gonk's excellent FAQ on this) but that is only important if you want to pass the raw audio data - unprocessed - to the pre/pro. As long as the player does the decoding of the audio codec (as the Blu-ray and HD-DVD players now do) then any modern 7.1 pre/pro equipped with even HDMI 1.1 can handle the resulting PCM bitstream. There's no need for 7.1 analog outputs and inputs to get the unprocessed audio into the pre/pro. (Your SACD and DVD-A discs need not worry about having to relinguish their analog inputs to new audio codecs.)

Yes, HDMI holds a lot of promise of being a "one wire solution" if everybody plays by the rules. But it certainly was not the case (and still is fraught with potential pitfalls) back when the 970 and 990 were being designed so Outlaw can't be faulted for taking a wait and see attitude on HDMI. I've followed this situation closely (including many discussions with Jano Banks, the co-inventor of HDMI, whom I met at CEDIA)and I stand by my position that Outlaw made the right decision at the time regarding an emerging technology. All is not a bed of roses, but at least now someone is tending the weeds so things will get better. I look forward to outlaw products with HDMI now that this is the case.

RAF! Good to see you! I agreed wholeheartedly with your HTF post a while back, and I agree that the misconceptions about HDMI are rampant.

The next generation of Outlaw processors and recievers will have to include HDMI, as it is becoming too prevalent and will need to be there. It will probably need to be v1.3 to satisfy market demands, even though for all intents and purposes v1.1 will suffice for most people for a very long time to come. Until then, the DVI switching offered by Outlaw's current generation is a very effective solution while we wait for the necessary tools (HDMI chipsets, DSP chips, and the like) to appear and be available in quantity such that companies can even attempt to build receivers and processors.

I tried keeping it simple by just going HDMI to DVI with the DVD....WRONG! Is there a sequence to turning the gear on?? I don't know! I was unsuccessful in getting any of my HDMI gear (i.e., projector, HD SAT or DVD) to talk to the 990 via DVI. Frustrated, I went component and digital audio throughout my system.

It's frustrating I can't use the full potential of every component yet they're equipped. I think the Simplay HD Testing Program is a GREAT idea that will shake the trees and flush out all wanna bees.

That said, in my short years (15) of dealing with HT, the 990/7700 combo are the best audio electronics I've ever bought. No matter what your budget, if you're in the market for a BIG-TIME Pre/Pro & Amp, you will be over-joyed with these two.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox :-)
Happy New Year Outlaws