So even though I told you specifically you were misspelling it and you continued to spell it as you did in boldface.... nevermind, apology accepted! Truth be told, it's not my real name. And if I might say, if "Bestbang4ABuck" is not your real name, I suggest you change it. As a username, it really sucks. It's really more of a motto than a name. Even "Sluggo" is better, although it's hard to come up with a name that makes you sound any stupider than "Sluggo". Anyway.

Whether you take it or not, you and you aloneare responsible for your reactions. I find there is a hell of a lot of "blame shifting" going on here, with people not taking responsiblity for their actions and reactions. People blaming others for the fact that they are making libelous and fallacious accusations against manufacturers and others here.
People even blaming me for them coming into this thread. If read people's words, it even sounds like they are blaming me for them being too stupid to read anything that is longer than 3 lines. No, *blame yourselves*. It's only fools that blame others for their actions and reactions. I did not force anyone to mock and ridicule Hifisoundguy/GoodSound for 300+ messages, did I? Nor am I forcing anyone to mock and ridicule me. Nor should anyone whine about it if they receive the same disrespect from me that they offer me or others.

As for being "unwilling to attempt debate", I believe you did. Like the others, you never saw it through. Not that I expected anyone to actually declare "Yeah Delius, I guess you're right and I was wrong about all this Belt and CLC stuff! Uh, color me stoopid! Sorry about the derision and contempt and all! I think I see your point about us being mindless sheep, now! Who knew you were right all along!".

Well... I did. Which is why I know that any attempt to debate from anyone here is an insincere one, since you are only trying to "debunk" me in the name of all that is holy and righteous about audio, and will never let your runaway ego's admit that you really don't know doodly about alternative audio products.


Correct. There is in fact a PWB product that addresses this concern, called the "CC Tie Pin" I believe. It is meant to be worn on the person at live events, to enjoy an enhanced sense of perception at that event. I have not yet experimented with "outside onsite Belting" myself, so I won't say how well that works. But I have no reason to believe it doesn't, because I have experimented with Belting fabrics, and that's basically what that does. It's a product that reduces the adverse energy on your clothing, which translates to better sensory perception. Another area I've not experimented with, but read a tiny bit about, is the treatment of musical instruments. I would expect that you can Belt instruments as well, but I don't know how well that would work. Another interesting proposition is to treat an entire recording studio, from mics to cables to mixing board to recording equipment. Then see what effect that has on the recording itself.

Since Delius has graced this thread once again, it might be a good time to post some thoughts that I had while making a long drive to a short meeting earlier this week. Delius has criticized many of the posts in this thread as being libelous toward Geoff Kait and Machina Dynamica (MD). While rolling down I-40, I got to thinking a bit about this issue and the reasons that I personally have found myself unwilling to place any faith in MD or their products. Part of my reason does trace back to a lack of faith in Belt devices, but it goes beyond that. Let me offer a fictional series of events as an example, then I'll explain why I do not trust MD as a company.

For our analogy, I am going to look at another company. Perhaps I'll use Outlaw Audio, the company that hosts this forum. Outlaw makes well-regarded home theater equipment (receivers, surround processors, amplifiers, subwoofers, and the like) and sells that equipment directly to consumers over the internet at very competitive prices. In that regard, they share a few things in common with MD - different products, certainly, but same distribution model. They offer a 30-day money back guarantee, as does basically any internet-direct company (in fact, Outlaw was one of the first to employ this model back in 1999). They offer good products at very competitive prices, and they place a great deal of value on customer service. As a result, they have a customer base that includes a number of repeat customers and they benefit from a good deal of "word of mouth" marketing. As someone who has been using various Outlaw products since the fall of 2000, I am just such a customer. What would happen if I were to see evidence of Outlaw demonstrating a grievous lack of respect for their customers? Specifically, imagine someone who was considering or had recently purchased an Outlaw surround processor or receiver. Imagine that person calling Outlaw and getting Scott (our forum moderator and a pretty senior Outlaw employee) on the phone, then asking Scott what set Outlaw's products apart from similar products offered by companies like Rotel, Denon, Anthem, Emotiva, and the line. Imagine Scott responding by saying, "Well, dear caller, our competitors simply buy their DSP chips and DAC's from companies like Cirrus. We instead purchase the design for those chips, at which point we contract with Santa's elves to hand-craft the chips using flying reindeer antler as the substrate rather than the normal silicon. These precision-crafted, flying reindeer antler chips are far superior to their average silicon-based counterparts." Clearly, Scott would be lying to this customer. Imagine that customer believing Scott and eagerly repeating this to others in an online forum. Imagine Scott offering no explanation for this story except to tell the customer that he would have to be more careful about revealing secrets to that individual in the future. If such a series of events were to take place, I would be far from the only Outlaw customer who would no longer be willing or able to provide Outlaw with my business or to recommend Outlaw to others. Even with an excellent product at a good price, such disdain for the customers simply wouldn't deserve our business.

How does this (admittedly very crazy, if fittingly festive) analogy relate to MD? In the case of MD, we have a company with an assortment of products that provide reportedly remarkable capabilities with no clear explanation, at prices that seem excessive based on the lack of information available. The consensus opinion appears to be that these clocks (and jars of pebbles and foil) are based on Peter Belt's concepts. Cue the can opener, because that would open an all-to-familiar can of worms. But wait, there is the possibility that the clock uses Orgone energy, in which case we need that can opener to open a different can of worms. Before we open either can, though, we need to take a look at an old old post from mid-March , which provided a source for HiFiGoodSoundGuy's claim that the clock served as a time travel device. That source honestly believed that the CLC operated by minimizing the time difference between the time captured on the recording and the current time, thus adding realism to the music. Where did he get such a hair-brained notion? After all, even delius agreed that the idea was ludicrous. Well, Geoff Kait offered an answer to that question: he had disseminated the information to the poster over the phone "in confidence" that the information would remain their little secret. He told a customer this! Even worse, he simply scolded the customer for sharing this information - he didn't say, "Come on, you know I was joking around since nobody seems to be willing to accept the real story" or "Sorry you took me seriously, it is actually a Belt device not a time travel device." So we have a company that is either unwilling to admit how the device works or has so little respect for its customer base that the boss will concoct crazy stories just for the hell of it. The fact that Geoff may be be a smart, well-educated individual doesn't change anything in this case. So delius tells us that he's worked for NASA? OK, he's intelligent - just like the thousands of other engineers who have worked on projects relating to the space program (and I've known a few of those engineers, including a couple college classmates and a professor who worked for Thiokol). None of that directly correlates to whether or not he is a reliable, trustworthy businessman with a good-quality, fairly-priced product. Even leaving the Belt "can of worms" unopened (at least for the moment), I wouldn't feel comfortable giving MD my business or recommending that others give MD their business simply because the company seems to have no respect for its customer base.

I'll probably drop back into this thread later to comment on one bit of research that I am still working on, maybe shortly after Christmas...

Go on Delius...
One is better getting lost within his passion than to simply lose it...
Happy Holidays or ranting which ever suits you best

and thank you gonk for injecting a bit of much needed sanity here...once again you're ''the man''...I'm looking forward to see what kind of results your research will bring you...
anything to enlighten this theology discussion...

Consider it my "Xmas gift" to Outlaw members...

And this too:

http://us.share.geocities.com/soundhaspriority/lshape.zip

Merry AA Xmas! Yo Ho Ho!

Nice, but what you and the other sheep here fail to realize time after time after time after time (after time!), is that you don't HAVE to have "faith" in audio products. Who said you did?? Outlaw, MD, PWB.... what do they all have in common? That's right, money back guarantees! That means "no risk and no faith required!". NO audio products works on the long term because you have "faith" in it. I never had "faith" nor "lack of faith" when I started experimenting with Peter Belt's products and ideas. I simply had an open mind. Something I can't say for a single soul here, as you have all proved to be prejudicial bigots.
(With the exception of either "Bang4ABuck" or "Gonk" who did make a half-assed attempt to listen to a couple of mp3 files before happily declaring the entire Belt phenomenon null and void right afterward....).

Really? PWB has been offering money back guarantees on their products for 25 years. Only had 4 return them in that time, I believe. They must be doing something right....


I'm sure they do. So does PWB

I'm sure they do. So does PWB


So what if he was? Or does the quality of sound not matter to you people? (That's a serous question, btw). Can't the customer determine for himself whether the product has good value by listening to it? Didn't you say a return money guarantee was in place?

Not hard to imagine, since HifiSoundGuy eagerly repeated some twaddle he heard somewhere about the CLC running on "orgone energy". How would that have in impact on Outlaw, is what I don't get? You guys post and exchange false information between you every single day here. I can probably find something that's BS in nearly every single post here (that isn't mine). Oh I'm sorry, you guys actually believe you're right all the time, don't you? I hope I didn't shatter anyone's illusions...

I'm glad you're not basing this on any reality, because in the case of Geoff Kait and MD, the "disdain" was clearly on the part of the customer, who's intention was to hold Kait up to ridicule for the generous time he took to try to explain his products to a mere potential customer, and who disrespected Kait's request that he keep the privileged conversation private. You're reasoning here is a joke, because while I can't speak for Outlaw products, in the case of MD's products, you're the one who's gonna suffer here with that snobby attitude of yours, because your system will crap out without the CLC's in place.

You might as well invite friends over for a twisted "crapfest" with your audio system as the main attraction.

Clearly, it doesn't. Except for the part about the flying reindeer antlers in place of the silicone. I hear that's what the GSIC chips are made of.

False. Why do you _always_ feel a need to posit strawman arguments, Gonk? Can't you make a New Year's resolution to stop doing that in these discussion forums? That's a lie that Machina Dynamica does not have any clear explanations of their products. How about this one called "How the Intelligent Chip Works - The Definitive Explanation":
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina64.htm

Now if you don't understand even the basics of quantum mechanics, or if you're "Sluggo" or "Jason J" or "R. Mackey", then I don't suppose a word of it is going to be "clear" to you. That's not his fault that his products work on complicated principles that dumb people figure is bullshit because they're too dumb to even begin to understand them.

I don't recall anyone saying the jar of pebbles is based on Peter's concepts. Can you point out to me who did? No, I didn't think you could, strawman. I've tried ordinary jars of ordinary pebbles in my listening room, it had an effect on the sound (albeit not a particularly great one). I believe it has enough of an influence on acoustic pressure waves to not be Beltian.

I'd like to tell you what you can do with your can opener but.... since it's Xmas, I'll just say that no, I don't believe there is the "possibility" that the clock uses Orgone energy. What I recall about that is HFSG regurgitated a joke someone wrote about the CLC. You idiots beleived it was MD theory simply because you believe all that you read on the internet. Like good sheep . However, you're also bad sheep because I already mentioned this here and yet you regurgitate the same false information because it suits your agenda. Not very honest of you, is it. Speaking of Orgone energy, I have yet to see any concrete evidence from you or anyone else that it does not exist, despite the claims made that it is bogus.

Quote:

Before we open either can, though, we need to take a look at an old old post from mid-March, which provided a source for HiFiGoodSoundGuy's claim that the clock served as a time travel device.
That source honestly believed that the CLC operated by minimizing the time difference between the time captured on the recording and the current time, thus adding realism to the music. Where did he get such a hair-brained notion? After all, even delius agreed that the idea was ludicrous.

You see, that's the problem with simple-minded sheep, I mean "people". They simplify everything because they have no choice. It's the only way they have of understanding the world. So to elaborate my simple slack-jawed friend, what I consider to be "ludicrous", is the idea that a Timex travel clock has been modified to somehow allow you to travel back and forth in time. That's is how everyone here and on Audiogon was interpreting that explanation. That is, however, NOT how I interpreted what Kait's customer had said (probably because my head isn't filled with hatred and fear of change, as it is with most).

I know Kait well enough to know he isn't mad, and I do not believe he said what people interpreted he said from what his customer wrote. I believe he may have been using time travel as an abstract to explain a hypothetical function of his device, in order to make it easier for the layperson to understand. Not having been privvy to that conversation, **along with you and everyone else on the internet**, I can't know exactly what he meant by that. Or if he even said what was claimed he said in the first place. But apparently, it wasn't simple enough and the idiot customer interpreted it to mean the clock can whisk you back and forth in time.

Quote:

Well, Geoff Kait offered an answer to that question: he had disseminated the information to the poster over the phone "in confidence" that the information would remain their little secret. He told a customer this!

No, there is NO evidence that he told the customer this. I already addressed this issue too in a previous msg, btw. There is only evidence he was not happy about what one of the customers who spoke to him was saying. I read that exchange, and it appeared the customer was mocking what Geoff Kait had told him about the CLC. Just as most others on the forum were mocking Kait and his products. We don't know exactly what Kait explained to the guy since it was a private conversation on the phone. It appears the customer may have taken Kait's words out of context, and after using those words to mock Kait on a web forum, this prompted Kait to say that he could not trust that customer again with private information.

Quote:

Even worse, he simply scolded the customer for sharing this information - he didn't say, "Come on, you know I was joking around since nobody seems to be willing to accept the real story" or "Sorry you took me seriously, it is actually a Belt device not a time travel device."

Again, that's YOUR biased, prejudicial personal interpretation of some very brief and unclear comments on a discussion board. Kait himself has neither officialy or unofficially confirmed or denied the clock is "a time travel device", or what is meant by that, if that is at all what he said about it. It's what you WANT to "believe", because it helps to not change your understanding of things. You have far greater adherence to your religious "faith" than you care to admit, "science guy". This little witch-hunt of yours against Kait is very scientific, btw.

Quote:

So we have a company that is either unwilling to admit how the device works or has so little respect for its customer base that the boss will concoct crazy stories just for the hell of it.

That's YOUR personal biased conclusion, that's not a fact. The only one that seems to be concocting crazy stories here is YOU. And no, it's not a 100% fact that Kait is unwilling to admit how the device works. I have read somewhere from Kait that a proper explanation is forthcoming.

Quote:

The fact that Geoff may be be a smart, well-educated individual doesn't change anything in this case.

Why would it, when your "case" is only supported by your personal prejudices and interpretations, and not a shred of concrete factual verifiable evidence?

Quote:

So delius tells us that he's worked for NASA? OK, he's intelligent - just like the thousands of other engineers who have worked on projects relating to the space program (and I've known a few of those engineers, including a couple college classmates and a professor who worked for Thiokol). None of that directly correlates to whether or not he is a reliable, trustworthy businessman with a good-quality, fairly-priced product.

True. But who said it did? I think the 30 day money back guarantee he offers on the clock correlates more than enough to whether or not he is a reliable, trustworthy businessman with a good-quality, fairly-priced product. Oh, I forgot... that's the part you Newtonites never like to talk much about when you're busy slamming companies like MD and PWB...
Doesn't help further your agenda much, does it?

Quote:

Even leaving the Belt "can of worms" unopened (at least for the moment), I wouldn't feel comfortable giving MD my business or recommending that others give MD their business simply because the company seems to have no respect for its customer base.

Yet you probably wouldn't think twice about buying a Sony product, despite the fact that they showed so much respect for their customer base, they had them install their own rootkits. I'm sure you don't shop at Wal-Mart either, for the degrading drug testing they force on their employees, or their anti-union stance. I'm also sure you don't own any products made in China, for their inhuman torture, abuse and murder of Falun Dafa practitioners, who may be murdered simply as a means of profit for the organ trade industry, in order to exploit their living organs. Or perhaps you think Kait is worse than the cold-blooded murdering Chinese, for condemning a rude and disrespectful potential customer/potential asshole?

I'm sure I would never find any products in your home that were purchased from countries or companies with questionable practices, Mr. Conscience. Because in your warped mind, a rude-ass customer who mocks the company president and violates an agreement of trust between him and the president who was gracious enough to take the time to talk with the whiny little shmuck on the phone to explain the products he helped design, is not at fault here. No, its the president who states he won't continue to share private, proprietary information with that "potential" customer, because the customer clearly violated their agreement that he not reveal what was said about the product. Wow, not a lot of hatred and prejudice against Kait on your part, is there?

Quote:

I'll probably drop back into this thread later to comment on one bit of research that I am still working on, maybe shortly after Christmas...

Ah yes... the L-shapes. Do tell us how that's going for you... don't forget to stick one at the top of the tree!

Well, I finally figured I would try these Belt thingies, I found the leather ones muddled my soundstage, the web type made the sound harsh and the best listening experience came from plain drawstring sweatpants.

bouhou...
If you guys don't believe in the clocks or the mustard...
I'm not playing any more....

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yep, drawstring sweatpants work best, tried elastic waistband, but it was too constricting,best sound came with a t-shirt with mustard and cream stains on it also while eating a hotdog wrapped in foil

Geez! What has happened to this forum?