I spoke to someone yesterday (I probably shouldn't say whom) who was trying to talk me away from the 990/7500 combo and trying to sell an upcoming bel Canto model that uses a digital powersupply as well as a digital amp. We talked all morning about how good a digital amp was and how bad a conventional amp is, like 2 watts power needed to produce one watt sound. That may or may not be true, nonetheless what my REAL point is is that we got to talking about the balanced outputs. Though I have TONS of electronics in my basement I hear no discernible sound/noise in my LSi speakers. But HE said that the 990 is not truly balanced because it would require dual circuitry inside. He did however say that the 7700/7500 were fully balanced.

His point being that "digital" is clearly the way to go at this point. Now I am balking at the 990/7500 purchase my wife ok'd yesterday. Music is the most important thing to me, and his setup basically had me using the Bel Canto S300i (http://www.belcantodesign.com/prodmain_integrated.html) as a music only system with an HT passthrough that would still use my Denon 2105 . . . which I dislike very much.

Thoughts?

I can't speak to the merits of the Bel Canto amps but I have the 990 with an ATI 2005 (same as Outlaw 7500) and I couldn't be happier. I made a move much like you are considering; I replaced a Pioneer Elite receiver with the 990/2005 and the difference was stunning. The ATI has more than enough power to cleanly drive my 4ohm M&Ks and the 990 sounds great plus it is very flexible. Your Polk speakers have some loyal followers in the Saloon so hopefully you will get some opinions on driving them with a 7500/7700.

Before I got the 990/2005 my system was used about 80% of the time for movies/hdtv and about 20% music. Well that flipped around to 80% music and 20% movies/hdtv shortly after the 990/2005 was installed. I found my appreciation for stereo again with the new gear. May I suggest that with Outlaw's 30-day return policy you have the opportunity to test drive the 990/7500 combo in your home with only shipping cost at risk. If you can get a Bel Canto to compare at the same time all the better.

I don't think I have a lot of electronic noise near my HT gear but I still use the balanced connections. The debate running in this forum and in others seems to be whether balanced connections are warranted over unbalanced. If there is a difference in sound quality because of the 990's internal workings I don't remember any discussions about it. So I took a "belt and suspenders" approach by using balanced connections for a modest cost increase. Maybe Gonk can weigh in on the balanced vs unbalanced issue since he just replaced an older Outlaw unbalanced amp for a new 7500.

Bottom line from me is that I think you would be very happy with the 990/7500 combo.

Digital amps can be very effective, but they are new technology that is still maturing. The benefit is appealing: less waste heat, which also means less power consumption (perhaps not enough to see on the utility bill, but still helpful), fewer heat sinks (less material cost and less space needed for the amp), and a smaller power supply (less copper to have to buy). To say that traditional amps are "bad" because they produce almost as much heat as they produce power for sound (it's not necessarily a one-for-one relationship unless you're talking about class A) seems dubious to me.

Your friend was correct about the 990 and 7700's balanced designs. The 990 is not balanced all the way through, from what I've heard (there are few surround processors that are). The 7500 and 7700, on the other hand, are fully balanced.

Having never heard the Bel Canto, I can't speak to how it compares to the 990 for music, but the 990/7700 would be a sure-fire step up from the ol' 2105.

The thing is, Outlaw likely wins out because of the 30 day return policy. The person, and his web company of whom I speak, does not offer such a deal.

knownalien,

Spending anything near the $2500 for the 990/7500 combo without a good return policy and a high level of customer service would make me nervous. Outlaw has both fortunately. Let us know if you order the 990/7500 and then what your impressions are of them with your setup.

I can say that the Bel Canto amp is way overpriced, IMHO. I actually know the approximate pricing of the class D amp sections, and the Outlaw markup is much lower then the 300i for what you get.

You have to realize that very few companies in the world make good Class D type amps (half dozen or less), so most of these companies just buy modules from these few companies and package them. Then mark them up because of the "hi-tech" product. However, you might prefer the sound, but you'd have to audition the various ones out there. At least you should before you spend that kind of money. If you can't hear the difference yourself, then why spend the money. Your heating/electric bill might be a little different though.

that's just it. I can't audition them. That's unfortunate. I think I will wait until after I get back from Brazil in 3 weeks.

@knownalien
Basically, your friend is correct.
However I resent the idea that class A, B or AB as biasing methods is BAD, as very many excellent designs have proven.
Class D still has to prove its aural merits!
As Gonk comments, the 990 has balanced outputs only, which helps battling cabling hum pickup problems when connected to the 1770.
But for true balanced operation you would need a CD/DVD player with balanced outputs (my Jungson SACD player has them) as well as fully balanced circuitry inside the preamp.
But I doubt whether balanced processors exist, maybe from the likes of Integra or Krell?
As for class D (digital final amps) I agree these aren't fully matured yet; I know Sony has some, and some highend companies too; however I find them all unnecessarily expensive, considering the greatly reduced power supply and hardware (cooling) costs.
I agree that class D is the way to go in the near future.

In fact in the fall I'll be building a 7*240W @ 8 Ohms final based on 7 Coldamp modules and 2 switched mode power supplies, and test that against the 7700.

Also I will be restructuring my 7700 to have the AC power supply (the mighty transformers) in a separate box; for an eternal tweaker like me the 7700 as it comes is really too heavy to schlep around...and my rack would go to pieces I'm sure.

The 7700 is indeed fully balanced, holding one of the 7 amps in my hand right now, and it IS fully balanced!

Awaiting the completion of these two battleships I am currently using an Arcam P7 7x150W which, sadly considering the price, has no balanced inputs, but managable weight: 31 kg.

Thank you very much for your informative post. To be perfectly honest, and I may sound like an idiot, going digital to someone like me so into the tactile like this: though we currently have mountains you can walk up to and climb, I have this new method which allows you to hold a picture of it in your hand and still be able to touch its surface.

In other words, having dreamt of the day I could own components such as the 7500 and 990 and knowing that "weight" was usually on par with raw power, it is hard to think of digital intergrated amps that weigh only 10 pounds each. In any event, if it IS the "future" then I will wait in the future to buy them . . like say 5 years from now. Right now I am looking at proven technology with the 990 and 7500 (I am having great difficulty seeing why I need the 770 when I still have the two 2200 mono blocks).

I think that amp manufacturers really need something new to get people to buy new amps. If you think about, it the amplifier portion of our systems is the one thing that really does not need upgrading. New bells and whistles, surround technology etc. has not really applied to the amplifier - one of the reasons separates are so appealing. The fact that the industry has come up with something 'new and improved' just makes me suspicious until it is way proven.

I do think that we'll eventually see digital amps become the standard - the energy efficiency improvement solves a number of pesky problems (size, heat, weight, electrical consumption) too conveniently for it to not catch on at some point. On the other hand, it's still a young technology that is trying to compete with a very well-established technology. It'll be a lot of years before I expect to put digital amplification in my system since the pesky problems that it solves aren't actually bothering me at the moment and the solid state amps that I have are doing just fine. Give it a few years, though, and the prices should drop at the same time the performance consistently rises to make digital amps something I'd consider recommending to someone else who was just starting to build a system.

That's the attitude folks had when it was time to move from tubes to solid state. To this day, there are still die hards that say "tubes are better" and "there is no need to upgrade" and will spend thousands to put antique NOS tubes in their equipment. You could also make the same argument that a 1963 Corvair is just as good a grocery hauler as a Toyota Prius if you're willing to overlook enough warts. Time marches on.

Digital amplification is the next logical step. It sounds AT LEAST as good and is substantially more efficient. Unfortunately, when people hear about digital amps, they think of cheap class D designs (psst...open up your LFM and have a look at the amp) which tend not to sound that great and not more robust "audiophile" designs. If I'm going to foot the bill for the electricity, I'd rather those electrons be used to drive my speakers than to be radiated as heat by an inefficient amp. My next amp is definitely going to be digital (probably TACT or Lyngdorf).

Regards,

There are merits to Class D amps. Two brands that I have come to appreciate are NuForce-Ref9 and BelCanto-Ref1000. I wasn't completely blown away by the BelCanto but there is a place for it in systems because it is a very capable amp. (I preferred the NuForce more, although technically it isn't Class D. It uses "switching" technology.) A lot of it depends on your installation - I had to look at it from a form factor and heat POV for an install I am in the process of designing. I am not in a position to stack a lot of ClassA/B amps for 7 channels, plus I don't have the option to vent/cool the rack so Class D are a very interesting prospect. I am sure with the right amount of tuning and wall treatments, I will have the room sounding excellent whether I go with the Bel's or the NuForce. However with that said, I personally use a Rotel RMB-1090 amp with the 990 at home and am very happy with the results; based on the constraints and limitations I have to work with. I also use balanced cables from the 990 to the RMB-1090 only because I had them but using unbalanced Purist Audio cables were just as quiet. Perhaps there is a tad more air with single-ended cables but I didn't spend enough time with it to compare. If you have a long run, great use the balanced cables, but if it is about a meter apart, just pick up unbalanced cables and you should be satisfied with the results. Ultimately it does come down to listening. Pick up the 990, listen to it and if you are happy... who cares whether you have class A,B,D,K,Z... blah, blah, you know? I have a feeling that you will be very satisfied with what you got and the new 990.

yes, even SVS's sub's website says it uses a digital amp.

Class D has been a standard choice on subs for a long time now - SVS, Outlaw, Hsu, Axiom, Velodyne, and many others. Amp manufacturers have had good luck getting good performance out of class D at the low frequencies that are subwoofers' territory. It's taken a lot longer to migrate from the bottom octaves to the full spectrum, but they're getting there. While they work on it, though, I'm quite content to let my good ol' solid state amps crank out the tunes.

I agree. without getting into the aural effects inherent in the LFE territory, needless to say, it is the mid to high frequency spectrum that demands the utmost clarity. Can calss D's provide this? I have no idea. In a general sort of way, I am not sure I buy into the whole "digitized" kinda of sanitized concept. Think of MP3. I am tested at being able to hear well above 20 kHz. Maybe I am a freak, but even if not those frequencies are said to be "felt" in one way or another by concentrated listeners. Maybe "perceived" is a better word. I can also hear well below 20 hz. In short, the whole MP3 revolution, though great for disk space (which is a nonsequitor at this point) has killed off that format of music forme.

Speaking of Class D amps has anyone auditioned any of Rotel's Class D amps? I've only tried to research the 7-channel model, RMB-1077, and it got quite a good review here....http://www.guidetohometheater.com/amplifiers/506rotel/. The cost seems quite high, however, at $2500 for 100w/ch compared to Outlaw equivalents, and I don't need the small size/weight benefit.

Dave

Hello,
My apologies as part of my info above was not entirely correct. Both NuForce and BelCanto use "switching" technology. At any rate, the choice is BelCanto. I am installing two: Ref1000's, three: M300's and one: S300. (everything will be balanced, where applicable.)The room won't be ready for another month or so but will post up impressions after it is tweaked out. I can't disclose all the information on room specifics yet but if you are all interested, I can post a full listing later. The equipment in total will be valued around the six figure range. So needless to say, it should be a fun install.