And don't forget, "Step off George!"...

damn hackers , hacked my site again
it was just a scifi fan site , thats the 5th time since january,

Gad, this thread is still going? It should be shot and put out of it's misery.

Having just read this entire thread, it's easy to see the utter absurdity of the suggested tweaks (except for the most rabid believer) and the people who sell such crap are either conmen or delusional themselves.

However, other than being further (much further) out on the spectrum of the objectivist/subjectivist debate, is there anything ultimately different about this compared to the claims made about cables, burn in discs, vibration control devices, cd pens, amp shelves, pucks, isolation feet, clarifiers, electromagetic stabilizers, and so on?

How many companies sell speaker cables, power cords and/or interconnects for thousands of dollars, with a straight face? Lets face it, for better or worse, hifi audio product marketing is designed to simply separate people from their disposable money. The question is whether it is fraud or not.

Is there any difference between psychoacoustics and a scientifically measurable process if both result in a perceived improvement in sound? On the one hand, I can easily conclude that anything that is only psychoacoustics and unmeasurable by any known scientific method is fraud and anything that is measurable and independently verifiable not. On the other hand, if you hear a difference and believe you are getting the promised result, why aren't you? If you are absolutely sure you are getting what you paid for, is there fraud?

In other words, if it sounds better to you, who's in a position to tell you it doesn't, you've been defrauded and you are a fool?

Oh, and what about the "wow" factor for something that is very expensive, looks beautifully designed and made with expensive component parts, that ultimately is a true work of art and in many instances is a large component of the cost. If it looks so good and sounds good to you, where does that lie in the debate?

In general, fraud lies in the intent of the one promoting the product. However, in the high fidelity world, with consumers believing what they hear, you'd be hard pressed to prove it. Compared to snake oil medicine, where sick people can die by taking it either because it's toxic and/or by not pursuing medically valid treatments, not many people are going to complain, especially if they think they got what they paid for.

For me personally, it's a matter of degree.

• I'm not going to buy a $2,000 set of speaker cables and I find the proposed science behind them to be rather dubious, but that dubious science at least retains a passing acquaintance with reality. The signal is what a cable is concerned with, and the cable does have to transmit that signal - what weird permutations are involved in carrying that signal have been and will continue to be open for debate among those who wish to debate it.
• Vibration isolation devices are similar - it's an extreme application of technology that already exists for vibration control (we use it on the fans and pumps we include in the HVAC systems I design every day) and I don't think the audible impact of such devices is possibly going to be appreciable. There are exceptions, of course: a co-worker recently got a DVR and found that its hard drive was transmitting vibrations into his cabinet and keeping his wife awake at night. He put some Mason isolators under the DVR and the noise ceased. In most cases the devices will at least functionally isolate vibration to at least some degree. Again, what impact that isolation may have can be debated among those who wish to debate it.
• CD pens just amuse me - they're pretty absurd, but at least they're attempting to directly interact with the signal path. It's not a very convincing attempt, but at least they considered offering some inkling of credibility.
• The Clever Little Clock (and its cohort jars of rocks or sheets of aluminum foil) doesn't even attempt to integrate into the signal path. It doesn't even have to be in the same room as the system (although apparently it does need to be inside the structure, since setting it outside causes it to cease to affect the system). It doesn't come in a package made from a single chunk of milled aluminum or hand-carved hardwood. It's a cheap, generic clock with a lithium battery inside and an orange sticker on the face. The rationales offered to justify it are purposefully vague and often contradictory. I'd feel better about saying that having my persian cat in the room improves sound because his mass and fur acts as a sort of moving acoustical treatment than saying that a battery powered clock sitting in a drawer of the end table has any effect on how my system sounds. Heck, I'd feel better say that having my cat in the house dampens the acoustical signature of the conventional foundation - it's still absurd, but at least I can point at a 20-pound cat sitting on the floor and say "mass, structural system, vibrations."

I say all this not to defend the dealers of other absurd "tweaks" - it's just that, at least for me, the CLC and its companion products are such an extreme and ludicrous exaggeration of the audio tweak concept as to offend on a whole separate level. Likewise, most of the other negative responses (and the humorous ones) come from like-minded folks who are in this forum because they are interested in the practical nuts and bolts of good home theater - we're not an audience prone to the tweaks you mention to begin with.

Is it a fraud? I'll leave that to legal experts to debate. Is it a concept so "out there" as to read like a parody (until you find out they actually take money in trade for their goods)? Oh, most definitely...

I think ROOM TREATMENT gets you the biggest improvement in AUDIO.....its not your speakers or audio gear....its your ROOM! I'm sure glad I got these clever little clocks now!! WOW!!

I'm sure glad you got them too!! It just pleases me to know that YOU have helped support a person who was too lazy and sleazy to take the time to actually do something positive for the audio industry. Now he can spend the money YOU sent him to upgrade his system with REAL audio gear.
By the way, I have some old tires that have no tread left, that I would like you to buy. They actually work BETTER, now that they are BALD because without the treads, they are just like a racing slick tire. Better traction, better cornering and they would be the perfect accessory to add to your car to increase performance. AND, since there's no tread on them, once you come to your senses, and decide that the best place for your CLC's is in the driveway, right behind the tires I sold you, you can run them over knowing that there will be no pieces of CLC stuck in the treads!! How about $150.00 per tire.
Thanks,
Lonster

You know, generally I try to adhere to the personal rule "don't feed the trolls," but sometimes you see a case where the troll food is such a fun meal that I can't fault the poster for putting the food on the table...

I actually bought a few of these and there is no audible difference but I am now stuck in 1956. How do I time travel to the future. Any help is appreciated HiFi.