If you were to compare the audio and build qulity of the 990 to any other pre/pro and the 7500/7700 to any other amp, (price aside) what would you compare them to?

In what ball park do the fall? Basicly, are you buying a yamaha, rotel, sunfire, krell, lexicon etc...?

I've never heard Krell or Lexicon, but I happen to believe that there's some real merit to the concept of TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch): you can't achieve all of the features and performance of a five-figure processor for barely over four figures. How much do you sacrifice for that huge cost savings? Yeah, that's hard to quantify...

Several folks have commented that the 990 was a clear step up from Yamaha (although I don't think any of us have tried the RXZ1). The one Rotel I've heard, I didn't like as much as my 950 (which in turn couldn't match my 990, particularly for two-channel) but there are other factors there (personal taste, different speakers, different rooms). Drunkonjack used a 990 and an Emotiva DMC-1 (clone of the Sunfire) and found only a slight difference sonically between the two.

In this review they use the Lexicon MC-12B as a reference to compare to. You can read his comments on the differences. At the end of the article you can read the Outlaw,s response.

http://ultimateavmag.com/surroundsoundpreampprocessors/705outlaw/

This review influenced me quite a bit toward getting the 990 since I had a Yamaha receiver. He directly compares the 990, 970 and RX-V2500.

http://processors.dblattman.com/

i wonder if any of the review mags would be interested in doing an artical doing a side by side comparison with a few different pre/pros at different price ranges to see if there is a difference. Outlaw claims to cut the middle man which = savings for us. (or do they mean profit for them?). Emotiva is the same thing.


When compared to yamaha, i thing that its normal that there is a difference as a yamaha system is less than half the price.

Gonk, I agree that there is no such thing as a free lunch. however there is also something else that you should take into consideration, and that is why buy outlaw. we want the best bank for our buck. some people give you 80% for our money and others give you 30%. If you are not an EE and particuly into this hobbie, you will never know. I'm into manufacturing and here is something for you to think about. The people who makes the raw materials make their cut, the agents who sell the raw materials make theirs, the manufacturer makes his cut, the agent that sells the finished good makes his cut, and the retail store makes his cut. please don't forget customes, and FREIGHT from each location to another.

Given that everything else is constant(reference), do you get high fidelity with the outlaw products? You do not get that with with Yamaha. I am taking about that feeling that you get when you are listening, as if you are in the center of a movie or as if you favorate band is playing infront of you, not speakers pushing sound. Your quality speakers should disapear. There are not alot of products out there that provide that. Do Outlaw products offer that? (990 & or 7500)

I started to write a reply, but it got far too long-winded. Starting over...

Short answer: my 990 (paired with a 750 and a pair of M200's) can in fact do exactly what you are talking about - remove itself (and the other components in the system) from the equation and let me experience the source material as it was intended. It's difficult to achieve and I still have no doubt that other systems could do it more effectively (albeit for significantly more money), but in my experience the 990's capable of it.

Long answer (which I believe you've already got a handle on, but may spark some interesting debate): there are many constants in design, manufacturing, and shipping, but smaller companies (both online and dealer-distributed) have far smaller margins of error than the huge corporations because their product life cycles are longer and their target market is more demanding. How many folks do you know with a cheap Panasonic or Sony receiver (or even an expensive one) in their living room who haven't even got it set up right and are satisfied with the sound? Now, how many folks do you think own a Rotel or Outlaw processor and haven't dialed it in at least reasonably well with an interest in getting full benefit from their investment? They have to get as close to that "magic" threshold as their price point will allow. The result is that these smaller companies often focus on performance over bells and whistles - that's one reason you often see new, popular features show up in receivers before they arrive in surround processors. A cool new gadget can be added to a large corporation's receiver and debugged over a couple years (and a couple generations of product), but a processor with a three or four year lifespan needs to get the features that it offers right. That means that companies like Outlaw and their brick & mortar counterparts apportion their design and manufacturing budgets differently - skip the weird DSP modes that mimic Notre Dame, skip auto-equalization that can't prove itself to improve most users' sound, skip new video switching options that may negatively effect final video quality, skip new radio formats that may not catch on, skip complex front panel doors with spring-loaded hinges, and focus on the core functions (analog section, essential processing modes, bass management, good DACs, good power supplies). And of course, there's also customer service to toss into the mix - give customers a place to communicate (which is a great way for customers to find and pick apart any bugs that slip through to production), be responsive to questions, and listen to customer desires and incorporate them into future versions or even firmware updates to current products.

Something interesting that I noticed while writing my initial (too long) post: there have been a number of subwoofer and speaker companies appear on the 'net over the last half dozen or so years. There's SVS, Hsu, Axiom, Aperion, Onix, and several others. Electronics, however, remains a much smaller segment - Outlaw, Emotiva, and OPPO Digital are probably the only three that have really carved out or started to carve out markets for themselves online.

Well, as far as looks go, I like the Outlaw's look, although I would've preferred non-blackish.
I like gear that's "different"!
I never liked the "Fort Knox" looks of most top-end home cinema receivers much, and I also never used auto-EQ, because even in my current Marantz SR-9600 it's wide off the mark...
Not a problem an SPL meter + my ears can't solve of course.
I never understood why people who can afford expensive receivers need video switching- surely they should prefer a scaler for that purpose?

Slightly o/t- I am currently working on a 7 ch class D final amp of 7 * 240W (8 Ohms) & 7 * 400W (4 ohms) respectively, based on Coldamp modules www.coldamp.com
Using 2 switch mode power supplies SPS8.
No heat, no excessive weight!
I am sure class D is the way to go, once they mastered the sound tweaking!

I'd put the Outlaw 990 in the league of Adcom, Arcam, or Anthem processors (hey, the 'A' crowd!) and Sherwood obviously.

Of course a $7000 Krell might be a bit beefier and some some better internals...but it should at that price.

I truly understand what you are talking about. And indeed, most people find me crazy for purchasing a 990 and 7500 when my current system with a yamaha 2500 sounds several times better than anything that they would purchase. Furthermore, most people do not know what to buy in the first place and having to connect a pair of rca jacks is a too complicated task. I stopped letting them know if i changed anything unless its a fisically obvious change.

here is one for you. I have heard that the outlaw amp is made by ATI. Well there are several posts on this site regarding this. Is it the same as the ATI2005 or ATI 2007? If they are, Why such a major price difference. We are talking about a 50% difference here. If you made amps for a living, would you badge one of your best amps for another reseller to sell it that much cheaper than yours? That means that Ati's greatest competion is ATI and at the same time ATI will loose marketshare.

As far as bells and whistles, I truly don't care for them unless that they make a difference in my quality like fully balanced inputs.

I think that there are many catigories and as long as you are in a certain catigory and keep it constant you should be fine.

What i mean is if you buy a $10,000 amp, you need $10,000 speakers to match not $500 ones and vice versa.

I haven't seen any definitive info on how the 7500 and 7700 differ from ATI's amps, but I get the impression that the differences aren't significant. Since ATI manufactures amps for a number of people, I think that selling amps under their own name is probably only a small portion of their business - they presumably get the price they want from Outlaw for the 7500 (7700, 7200, 7125, 7075) and call it good.

what are microfarads per channel, what difference do they do. What about output device per channel, like the 755 is 22,600 microfarads per channel and 10 output devices per channel. how many are the 7500 and what do they mean please.

I have the ATI 2005 and from what I can tell the only difference between the 7500 and the ATI 2005 is the spacing of the individual channels within the case and the front panel. The channels in the ATI are spaced to allow the owner to add up to seven channels. ATI's web site says they will add channels at $300 each. The seven channel ATI should be identical (except for price!) to the Outlaw 7700. If you know the number of channels you need the Outlaw amps are great deals.

HEY HAS ANYONE SEEN THIS REVIEW?
http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1631

SEEMS TO SUM UP MY FEELINGS AFTER SPENDING A WEEK END WITH THE 990. Sorry for the caps...I have been comparing the 990 to my Acurus Act3. With 2 channel the units sound different, but very difficult to say which is better. For hometheater its no comparison, the 990 is clearly better. I will give more detail later, but the 990 has found a home in my rack.

I don't think I'd seen that review before. Thanks for the link, Star113. And it's always good to hear from somebody with a happy 990 in their stack.

well today I received 990, 7500 and the xlr cables. I am still waiting on my lmf1plus. So far i connected the units and played a few cds. At first I had a very boomy sound. I did not understand it at first. And then I figured out the my front speakers needed to be adjusted. they moved a bit during the intall of the 990/770. I have to say that after that my sound changed completely. Its as if there is a depth in the sound. its not flat. Every thing just sounded more clear. My electrostats SING. the amp is so powerful for my room that I cannot take advantage of its power. The bass is tight but missing something. Other than the transparncy and clarity improvement that I have in my front speakers, my center channel and rear speakers have woken up from the dead. I think its missing on the lower end though. I wonder is my bass problem may have to do with the speaker placement still, the sub, or Room acoustics.

Can anyone sudgest soom room acoustics that I can purchase at a good price that looks nice also. My froom is all concrete.

I have run into one problem though, auto setup does not work for me, when I run it, it keeps saying that My front speakers are small and that my rear speakers are large and that I should swap the speakers are rerun the test.


Here is the funny thing, I have Martonlogan Vistas in the front and klipsch surround speakers in the back. Is there a way that I can bypass this issue and still run autosetup.

I am not sure what to do. I have not yet watched any movies, I am waiting for the lmf1p first. I will let you know how that goes and give a more in depth review on the complete system.

I don't have any specific recommendations regarding room treatments but room issues can make good equipment sound horrible. There are gunslingers that have had room issues themselves; hopefully they will help you with all that concrete.

I didn't have any luck with the auto setup either. I recommend you use a Radio Shack SPL meter and a tape measure to manually set up the 990. If you don't have the SPL meter they are handy for fine tuning your setup beyond the initial time.

Most of all, enjoy your new gear. Now back to the Patriot; Mel is about to off some more redcoats!

Here's Scott's recommendation for the case where auto-setup complains of seeing "large" surrounds:

hey billy

You might try Bryan Pape at www.sensiblesound solutions.com He was very helpful when I wanted to build bass traps and direct reflection absorbers. It made a remarkable difference in the sound. I have M.L. sl3's and cinema in front.
I too was suprised how much depth the 990 created. Enjoy your Outlaw equipment.

Brad

thanks

hey brad, how do you like you cinema i? would you recomend it?

these are reasonable http://www.gikacoustics.com/product_info.html and they have good cust service.

The review Star113 gave us the link to is a pretty unique animal: the reviewer actually reports on the performance of the unit on EVERY input. Someone who actually respects the way (some) listeners in the real world use home theater equipment. How often have any of you seen that? You can bet I'm going to bookmark that site.

I also note, not so happily, that the 990's phono performance did not stack up all that well against a $120 NAD. So, Outlaws - how about an improved 990 phono preamp, maybe on a new or replacement card, since the 990 has card-slot architecture? I'd pay $200 for a good one, or maybe more for a REALLY good one. Anybody else?

I also saw in the same review that the 990's AM performance is nothing to be proud of. Well, heck, AM, who cares? would be most people's reaction, probably including mine - unless something comes up that's worth listening to, that is. I think I read somewhere that digital radio makes even AM stereo possible (at least up to a little below 10 KHz), so it may be a little premature to throw it out. But my point is, if the 990 has circuit boards that fit in slots, as a picture shows, and if there's extra space inside it, why not think in terms of future improvements and extra-cost upgrades? Computers do it all the time (desktops, anyway). Lot of possibilities here.

psyprof1 Has a good point. Open ended architecture has been around for awhile in high-end audio, but I don't think we will ever see it used much. It's just not cost effective for the small midfi companies. Just like computers, unless you build your own system it is usually less expensive to replace an aging product than to upgrade it, My experience with Acurus ACT3 upgrade offer taught me a few lessons. First the ACT3 sold for $1899, but the upgrade cost $1000. To Klipsch defense it was a substantial upgrade, Klipsch had aguired Mondial the parent company of Acurus, but my under $2000 processor was now a 3000 dollar unit. I believe the Outlaw 950 was out then and had the same features as the upgraded Acurus for under $1000. From what I can tell not to many Act3 owners took the upgrade path me included. Fixing bugs is one thing but upgrades are another animal from a profit point of view. At some point Outlaw will need to build and sell another pre/pro to rplace the 990. I'm sure they may be able to build ubgrades, but will that provide the revenue and margin the company needs to say viable and profitable? What would be cool if the 990 becomes the next Ipod, just think of all the aftermarket items and upgrades. I hated media players and detested mp3 devices as a diabolical plan to destroy America's love for quality audio. Then the Ipod. Mine is playing on my 990 right now.

On the subject of preamp/processor upgrades...

I upgraded from a Fosgate 3A to a Lexicon DC-1 in 1998. The MSRP on the Lexicon was about 4,500 bucks. A year or so later, I upgraded the Version 2.0 THX/DD firmware to Version 4.0 that also came with a new (DC-2) remote. That was another $300. Another upgrade that I didn't go for was for a DTS card -- it was $500 all by itself!

Upgraded from the Lexicon DC-1 to the Outlaw 990 a couple of months ago. I know that the DC-1 was eight-year-old technology, but the improvement in sound with the 990 was HUGE! Then there are other features like balanced outputs, DTS, a great remote and more.

The point is - the Outlaw 990 is an excellent performer and truly a bargain at its current price. The 990 will assuredly be updated or replaced with a unit that addresses the comments above, but for now we have a most excellent performer in our AV rack that has REALLY added to the enjoyment of our AV hobby. Life is good!

Card-based architectures are a great example of "cool" designs, but historically they've been relegated to high-dollar products and have often been used more as a way to let buyers customize the unit at the time of purchase rather than a way to add features later. There are exceptions of course - Anthem's AVM20 platform and D1 platform have spawned two or three generations of processors, and they have upgrade programs to allow owners to have older units upgraded to include most or all of the newer generations' features; Lexicon's MC-12 has also seen several hardware upgrades, most recently an HDMI upgrade that replaces a bunch of s-video and composite video inputs with HDMI connections - but they again tend to be on more expensive gear and the upgrades themselves tend to have significant price tags attached.

Automatic has a point: based on past products, one could argue that Outlaw's approach to upgrade cycles is not too shabby. I'd describe that cycle as building units that are top "bang for the buck" designs with good reliability - leading to very good resale value for Outlaw units in the used market. Rather than invest engineering resources extending older designs to incorporate new technology, they develop new designs built from the ground up around new technology and keep the prices in that same "bang for the buck" territory. Customers can then sell their previous generation unit if they want to and often end up only spending the equivalent of an "upgrade" to get brand new gear - a 950 owner could get $500 or more on the used market (depending on how old the unit is) for his old processor to help pay for a 990, making the 990 cost ~$600. That's not much different than the DTS card cost for Automatic's DC-1.

The one drawback to this approach is that you don't have the kind of flexibility that psyprof1 is talking about - you can't toss in an extra $100 or so when you order the unit in order to get an improved phono section or beefier tuner.

When you run the 990's auto setup, does it equalize your speakers?

There are many things that I like with the 990 and many that I think are not good. the sound quality is very good. I have some bass issues, since i have not yet done the upgrade, I will not comment about that now. As far as the video, the qaulity really sucks. I have not tried the dvi yet, but if you run compunent video through it or svideo, or composit, it degrads the picture quality. You are better off running a rca out to the tv for the menu and all your video directly to your output devices to the TV.

As for the remote, I have mixed feelings about it. I like the weight, the backlight and the feel of the buttons. its missing a button on the side to lite it in the dark. It need to be better organized. the stero dts and dvd keys shoulk be in the same area.

The other thing that I don't like about it is that its limited in what can be programed. I have a denon 2910 dvd and a directv H20 hd sat receiver and I cannot program either one. Its so depressing that I did not even bother programing my TV.


As for the sound quality, when matched with their 7500 amp, I am so impressed that I do not know how it can sound better. The dts and DD are on par with anything out their. I am sure that If you buy a MUCH more expensive unit, I maybe better, but by how much? When compared to my Yamaha 2500, the 990 makes you feel as if you are in the center of the action. The yamaha makes you feel as if its pushing the sound out of the speakers. As for the center channel, the voices come out cristal clear.

HEY BRAD225

Thanks for the info. I Am going to give them a call, because the site is still under construction.

I have a small room 2200sq ft. all the walls are concret. So the sound is bounceing back and forth.

If they made a 990 without all the video ins and outs, how much less would it cost?

The 990 doesn't include any equalization. It hasn't been ruled out as a possible firmware update, but the solution used by Sherwood's P-965 didn't seem to meet Outlaw's requirements.

Bass issues are common because of the complexity of the bass management - it can take some tinkering to get just the right settings for your setup.

I'm surprised to hear about video quality degradation - I've had excellent luck with the 990's video switching. If you haven't done so already, you might check on your cabling. Long runs, loose connections, or cables near power cords or speaker wires can all have an impact on picture quality.

Billy

I am very happy with the cinema center channel. It has no problem filling the 10' between the sl3's. At this time it is in a large cabinet along with 60' TV and all of the electronics.(It's the spousal trade off until the new house and theater is built.) I can only imagine how good it would sound not hindered by being in a box.
There are some pics of the first 2 bass traps I made in Tips & Tricks forum here in the Saloon on 3/5/06. At that point they were not covered with fabric yet.
Good luck with your concrete walls.