I was reading about the new Toshiba HD-DVD today and it mentioned that it required HDMI to connect to a pre/pro. Does this disqualify the 990? I have read NOTHING but stellar reviews of this great pre/pro but this HDMI issue is always brought up as a caveat. I want to get either a blu-ray or HD-DVD player once the winner precipitates out but I don't want a pre/pro that will not cooperate with it. BTW, the consensus is that the Toshiba may have been a little rushed to market as it has some bugs. It's half the price of the new SONY Blu-Ray player though. Thanks Partners.

Hoo-boy. Let's see...

HDMI is a fairly new standard (latest version is v1.2, but most hardware is v1.1 at best - some isn't even that - and a lot of folks are eagerly waiting for v1.3) that combines digital video and digital audio in a single connection. The digital video format was borrowed from the existing PC digital video format DVI, and the two are pin-compatible for digital video. The digital audio side will carry the same signals already carried by SPDIF (coaxial or optical digital audio), plus multichannel PCM (up to eight channels of uncompressed digital audio) DVD-Audio's MLP bitstream (v1.1) and SACD DSD bitstream (v1.2).

Whatever you were reading about the Toshiba was very deceptive (even inaccurate): both Toshiba players include multichannel analog audio outputs to support the millions of Dolby Digital receivers and processors already on the market. Blu-ray will do the same. The Toshiba clearly was rushed, and it lacks several features that the format could support.

Gonk, I think I have asked you this before but what do you think is a better speaker, the Martin Logan Vantage or the B&W 803S? I listen to half music (All kinds) and viewing movies. You have a handle on this stuff that I can hardly fathom. Do you work in the field? I'm really torn between the 803 and the Vantage but I can't listen to them side by side using the same electronics. Thanks A Lot.

Speaker buying is difficult and very dependent on the individual's preferences. I think both speakers are probably pretty comparable. I've heard the Vantage's sibling, the Aeon I, at a friend's house and was pretty impressed. B&W also makes very good speakers, although my personal experience hasn't been as compelling as my ML experience - which could be attributed to a combination of factors (listening to a lower-end B&W speaker on my system and the electronics used with the higher-end B&W's I've heard) unrelated to the actual performance of the 803. Best bet is to try to at least demo both on comparable electronics (neither really cheap or obscenely expensive) using demo material of your choosing.

Actually, my work is quite unrelated to the home theater field. I'm a mechanical engineer, and I design HVAC systems.

I think I may try to put together a comprehensive explanation of HDMI - you are far from the first to ask this question and you'll be far from the last, simply because it is such a confusing issue. I've got a couple deadlines this week, but this weekend may afford a little time to put something together...

Gonk,
let it rip .... the explination of HDMI - that is....
To bad there is not a place that has threads covering previously discussed threads over basic topics. One example is the discussion over THX. Just good information. Or the topic of Room treatments. - or cables or how much power?

Dog_lover:
I have heard both w/ good to sweet electronics. my 2 cents worth is you have to decide which sound you like. Britsh-warmer-laid back-ish sound to a refined electrostatic. you will find fans for both. And both can be set up to wow.

But you will have to live w/ your pick .... so - really - go play/demo as Gonk stated.
Have fun.

Dog_lover, if your speaker list includes Martin-Logans, which are tall curved-front rectangles with bipolar radiation (sound from both front and back, requiring them to be placed out from the back wall), have you considered Magneplanars, which are about the same size and also bipoles? The price level of Maggies is about the same as MLs and they have the same type of driver throughout their range, unlike MLs, which are electrostats in the mids and highs but use a cone woofer. A lot of us like them very much. Just a suggestion.

It'll probably be late this week or early next week before it's ready, but I've got an outline in place for an HDMI FAQ. Once it's done, I'll post it on my website, add a link to my sig, and say something about it in this thread. Much of what I'll include is already floating around the " Basics of Home Theater " section of my web site (scattered between the Terms and Technology , DVD and HD Disc Players , and Receivers and SSP\'s sections), but this will be something stand-alone that will focus specifically on HDMI.

Gonk:
If your heating and ventilation systems are anywhere near as quality as your audio reviews you should probably teach. I'm such a pussy that I would hate to buy both the ML and the B&W knowing that I'm really going to disappoint someone. My experiences with Magnolia have been stellar, I have a first rate tech/sales rep and they let me return items way past any posted expiration limits. Having said that it was while driving home I remembered another shop right up the street which sold B&W. I gave the wrong model, the one I was so impressed with is the 803D, D is for diamond tweeter. Well I'm still a couple of months away from taking the plunge so we'll see. Thanks again for your very able assistance.

In other forums, you can create "stickies" for the common faq type of recurring questions...they are at the top of the list in a given topic.

The saloon supports that, as well, although as with other forums the ability to identify "sticky" threads is restricted to moderators (which in the case of the saloon is Scott).

I've been decyphering plans on an unfamiliar job this evening, but I've also finished putting together this HDMI FAQ . I'll add links to it later (in my sig and on my site), and probably proofread it when I'm better rested.

As always, Good job Gonk.

Specs for HDMI 1.3 announced:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1975596,00.asp

Good catch, Sanjay. Looks like I'll have to update the FAQ in the next couple days. It sounds like the Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD support is being joined by some significant changes to the video signal options. There doesn't seem to be any word about changes to the connector (aside from the optional mini-plug for camcorders). Once HDMI puts up some info on their site (currently it just says "Check back soon for information on version 1.3 of HDMI"), I'll definitely be making some revisions - and in the meanwhile I'll start poking around the 'net for more details.

Yeah, I'd heard rumour that a new 'locking' connector was in the works and possibly part of the v1.3 spec. Apparently not.

Everyone should also keep in mind that this is just a description of the specs at a news site. HDMI.org hasn't even made the official announcement yet.

And then parts makers have to start producing connectors and chipsets that manufacturers, like Outlaw, can start buying to incorporate into upcoming products (with some testing and bug fixing along the way). Certainly not a quick nor easy path to new processors and receivers.

Still, the fact that the spec is finally ready is encouraging.

I agree - so many people have been in limbo because of the interest in HDMI 1.3 (every time I see first mention of an HDMI-equipped product at AVS it seems that someone immediately asks if it's using 1.3). Maybe now we'll start to see more manufacturers start to be able to more forward.

The wait may be slightly longer than people anticipate. Since HDMI 1.3 can transmit the new HD audio codecs natively, manufacturers won't miss the opportunity to incorporate new format decoder chips into upcoming receivers and pre-pros.

Are those chips ready and shipping? I know they are for players (with some limited functionality) but I don't know if chip makers have them ready for receivers and pre-pros.

If I were a manufacturer, I wouldn't just graft HDMI 1.3 capability onto my current models. I'd definitely wait for format decoding chips for DD+, DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD, etc. No sense implementing only part of the 1.3 spec. So this may take longer than people expect.

I agree with you, Sanjay. I suspect the PS3 has provided enough inertia to get HDMI 1.3 components ready for the player side fairly quickly (at least ready enough to be shipping in hardware in the next six months, although I doubt we'll see HDMI 1.3 even on the player side much before the PS3 hits in November), but to integrate it into receivers and processors is likely to take longer. If I had to guess, I'd say early 2007 at the soonest for the big guns (Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Denon) and mid-2007 or past that for smaller manufacturers like Outlaw, Rotel, and the like. After all, the spec isn't technically out yet - and once it is, it'll take time to get the chips hammered out so they can then be integrated into new designs, plus time to get decoders for the new formats working on receivers and processors (DD+ may have a head start in that regard thanks to the HD-DVD and Blu-ray players that are already doing that decoding, but even on those we haven't seen a surround-capable TrueHD decoder show up on store shelves yet).

Spec finally (officially) released on June 22:

http://www.hdmi.org/resourcecenter/index.asp

Gonk - time to update your HDMI FAQ. :-)

And

incorporating most (or all) of the 1.3 specs

970 v.2 - in July 2007 ($750)
990 v.2 - in October 2007 ($1250 - remember - now they have to put the higher quality DACs for all 8 channels)

Is this doable???? wishful thinking?????

Well, I've juste updated the HDMI FAQ to address HDMI v1.3. It seems we're both thinking about HDMI this morning...

It's possible that Outlaw will try to roll out new HDMI 1.3 processors as soon as next summer, but even if they retain the existing platforms and fit HDMI into them that would seem to be difficult. The specification was just published this week, and the main focus this year is likely to be getting 1.3 into the PS3 (so the HDMI chips for a v1.3 input may not arrive as soon as the output chips). The 990's already got the same DACs for all eight channels, so they could potentially keep the analog section of both units and try to gut the DVI sections, change up the digital audio input side to support HDMI audio inputs, change the DSP section to support the HD audio formats (something that the 49400 chip used by both the 990 and 970 will likely not support, if I had to guess), and get all of that into production. It'd be sort of cool to see them do it, but I'd be stunned to see an HDMI v1.3 Outlaw product before late 2007 and I'd rather they take the extra months to get things right (analog to digital video transcoding to the HDMI monitor output handles everything, confirmed compatibility with a number of different v1.0, v1.1, and v1.3 sources, and things like that) than see them wrangle HDMI into existing platforms just to be quick to market.

I don't want to sound negative or anything, but a small company like Outlaw can't afford to have a product generation that is only half-baked and I worry that modifying these existing platforms to handle HDMI v1.3 would run a strong risk of ending up that way. New products purpose-built to work with v1.3 (and the more complex decoding and video management issues associated with it) would be a much safer business choice as well as a better deal for the consumer in the long run, but that means more design work - and that means time. I'd be quite happy to be proven wrong by Outlaw if it meant products with effective v1.3 support shipping in 12 to 14 months, but if I had to guess today I'd honestly not expect an Outlaw HDMI v1.3 product coming out before December 2007 or early 2008.

Gonk:

Great update to the HDMI FAQ.

Agree that the changes are complex and that we shouldn't expect to see Outlaw HDMI equipped receiver and processors before end-2007.

Two years after the release of HDMI 1.1 spec, there isn't a single pre-pro under $3000 that is capable of doing 1.1 audio. That is really sad...

(I know that some receivers in the $1000 range do 1.1 audio, but I can bet that their audio quality is nowhere close to that of the Outlaw 970 or the Emotiva LMC-1.)

Outlaw and a couple of other companies developed products that allowed some of us to enter the "separates" world (lower price). I just hope that we won't have to wait 2+ years for a <$800 processor that supports HDMI 1.3...

SB

I think the absence of surround processors with HDMI v1.1 support can be linked directly to the inevitable arrival of v1.3, with some secondary responsibility going to the confusion surrounding the HD format war. If v1.1 had been a long-term standard (rather than one that was current for just over one year) we'd have likely seen HDMI support appearing sooner, and if the HD-DVD/Blu-ray mess had been less uncertain that would have helped even more.

Now that we have an HDMI standard that should (hopefully) be around for a while and both formats have been finalized (more or less - some interactivity content is still a bit hazy), the way is open for actual progress. The engineer in me suspects that we'll be waiting at least 18 months or so before any processors show up with HDMI v1.3, but I don't have any hard evidence to support that estimate - it could be a little sooner (which would be cool) and I doubt it'll be too much longer.