Cliff Notes: delius writes lengthy posts for the good of all, outs sluggo as a dropout fraud, but finds victory bittersweet.

Scenes from next episode: delius claims throne, drives enemies before him, hears the lamentation of the women

Delius,

Thanks for the laugh. Seriously, it's great to see someone have such a great commitment to an arguement. Here are two thoughts for you:

1)"They have NO idea what to listen for, and fall back on what they know (ie. highs/mids/lows). "
-Without the highs/mids/lows you have air. (Unless your listening in some other medium.)

2) The BOSE marketing slogan, "Better Sound Through Research."
-If you scare people with enough scientific mumbo-jumbo, especially anything relating to "technology", you can get them to believe just about anything. This even includes the belief that you can great, full sound from a tiny cube and a "bass module."

I am a firm believer in the fact that when it comes to music, your own ears are the best final judge of what is "good" sound. That being said, you can trick your ears very easily. That's where science and technology of the audio industry comes in. The tools that are available give the listener a way of knowing that their own hearing perception hasn't been falsly influenced. Without this form of control, your findings are just opinions. You are certainly more than entitled to them but it doesn't give you the right to push them on other individuals no matter how you try to market them.

It isn't, is it? Life is SO unfair sometimes... So what you're saying is, it's "all good fun" when Sluggo and Bozo and whoever else goes and piles on attack after attack of mockery and ridicule toward a couple of members of this forum, for hundreds of posts of length, and calls them and the manufacturers "frauds and scammers" over products they've never tried. That's all in good fun, right? I don't know about "Gonk" (and if you think I insulted him, you have NO idea what insulting is....), but I do know about "Sluggo". He's the guy that called HFSG a scammer and the same twit that made groundless accusations of fraud against both Geoff Kait and Peter Belt. But in your "honest opinion", you consider this one of the most "helpful and upstanding posters" in these forums? What do you think that says to people about your forums?


So what indeed. I never said you had to agree with me, and I never said you're not entitled to yours. But nor do I believe you and Sluggo and whatever other would be gunslingers who's defense you'd rush to are entitled to stupidly and irresponsibly slander or libel honest audio engineers and their companies citing them as frauds and cheats no less, never mind other members of these forums, without any factual basis for your libelous attacks. As your genius friend "Sluggo" says, it's not even an "opinion" if you bash products you know nothing about and have never tried, without "quantification and qualification". It's "fiction". Or rather, "dumb ignorant prejudice", as I'd call it.


I see. So you really do consider "Sluggo" a genius. And you're right, perhaps he or she is. Next to you. But by my standards, and those of the rest of the free world, take my word for it pepito, these are not the words of a genius:

Sluggo says:

They're the words of a truly ignorant "chest-beater". Examples of this poster's arrogant chest-beating abounds throughout this thread. Examples of this poster's truly insulting and defamatory remarks against HifiGoodSound, a member who never made any attacks against Sluggo, are also plentiful in this thread. Which proves Sluggo is anything but "polite". As far as teaching anyone anything about audio, or anything about anything, if you want to be a sheep and follow Sluggo, trust me, you'd do better letting slugs invade your brain and leave eggs to nest in there. Hell, even Consumer Reports is a more reliable source of information than a "Sluggo".

Hey Slugger! We were just talkin' about ya. Don't worry, good stuff only. You know what, El Sluggo? Yer HILarious! The post you felt a need to write your little "Cliff Notes" version of is like 5 lines long! So what you're saying is... you feel that 5 lines is too much for you and your compadres to consume in one shot, because your short attention spans don't allow for that. Therefore, your need to feed everyone with your sound bite interpretations. And you seriously thought you were capable of having an intelligent debate with me, never mind winning one?! I'll save you some time for next time, Sluggo. Here's the Cliff Notes on my current post:

Cliff Notes: You're a 'tard.


I told you once. This isn't the room for an argument. It's down the hall, first door to your left.

Oh. My. GOD.

Now I'm starting to see the extent of what I'm dealing with here.... If you think that there are no further aspects to music reproduction than amplitude, it's probably because you have the very same problem your friend Loopy seems to suffer from: getting all your information on audio from a "Sluggo".

By the way, "air" is actually one of those "other" aspects of music reproduction. You know, the ones you think don't exist?

No argument there, I'm no fan of subwoofers myself, let alone Bose. And I agree that you can get people to believe almost anything with enough "scientific mumbo jumbo". We've seen no end of examples of that on this very forum, with people believing in the scientific mumbo jumbo of "blind tests", and holding that as the holy arbiter of all that is valid in audio. Or all the sheep who've been led to believe in the scientific mumbo jumbo of cd players being superior to LP replay. But you -can- get better sound through research, that's a fact. BOSE is mostly better marketing through research.

Uh, that's actually the concept of a stereo, Sluggo. I mean Loopy. I mean (oh geez, you're all starting to sound the same to me...) ... "Jason". What do you think the word "stereo" means? I mean you were starting out pretty good, making sense by saying your own ears are the best judge of what sounds good, and then you got all Sluggo on me...

Again, you seem to be purposely avoiding what this magical technology that eliminates the necessity for a working pair of ears is exactly. So I can only guess that by "controls", you're talking about the ubiquitous "blind test". As I have stated in detail in my recent posts to Gonk on the subject of blind tests, any result that comes from blind or even double blind or even ABX testing of audio products, is, and always will be, "just opinions". It can NOT and should not be relied upon. It's a waste of time, basically. The discrepancy between empirical and statistical data is far too great. Do the research, man. The JAES makes it pretty obvious. Lastly, perhaps you might care to explain how to perform a proper double blind test on cream electret? (It's a cream you put on things to improve your sound).

In order to set up the test, you have to be able to switch between states of application and disapplication. Well, its an invisible cream that requires only one micron thickness to work. Kind of hard to tell if you've removed it, and if you use a product such as alcohol to remove it, well now it can be argued that you've changed the sound through the application of the alcohol (yes, before you ask, chemicals affect sound). If you try to use two identical devices during the test (ie. CDs), it can also be argued that the identical devices might not be identical after all. You seem to want easy answers to everything, and are willing to "settle" on whatever is the easiest answer for you. But I'm sorry, in the real world, it doesn't necessarily work that way. Though most people are not aware of this, LOTS of things can change your perception of sound when you listen, including the way you're sitting. You're fooling yourself to think you can control all variables during a blind test.

Corrections: First, I'm not "marketing" my opinions. I'm "sharing" them, like you. And I'm not "trying" to share them, I am sharing them. Second, if we're talking about "rights" here, I don't think you, Sluggo or any other Bozo's here have the "right" to gang up on one or two innocent parties, and shout them down with attacks of ridicule and accusations of scamming, trolling or "marketing". All because they advocate audio products or techniques none of you know squat about, and none of you have ever even bothered to try. Those 2 guys you all slaughtered into silence never said boo to any of you. They were polite, they were impersonal, they were simply sharing their opinons on audio products. And you "Sluggoed" them with accusations of fraudulence and trolling. When in fact, you all were trolling them, happy to see them back for more opportunities to gang up on them. Being a hard core Beltist, I fully expected you all to do the same with me, so that I don't mind because.... (see my post about eating IM's for breakfast....).

CN: delius fights for the rights of the weak, reveals that he's so tough he eats people for breakfast. Oh, and we all sound the same to him.

Next up: delius has revealed himself nothing more than a troll, subsequently the rest of the forum ignores him and quits posting in the thread. Have fun, delius.

Delius,

There's a place on the web for "tweakers" like yourself:

www.audioasylum.com

I'll say it again; you, HFSG, and Goodsound are marketing a product to people reading this forum. All of your posts are nothing more than an arguement trying to convince a person reading the thread that the CLC and other such products have a place in their system. Since these products cost money, that is marketing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Have fun with your system. If your "tweaks" help you find audio nirvana, congratulations. You've reached a place that most of us are still searching for.

P.S. Audio Technology reading for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_quality_measurement

Maybe we are all sheep, sheep looking for good sound for not a lot of money.by the way my faher worked for Bose in 1970, and worked on the 501's,and was an sound engineer at 3 local radio stations,played drums in a band had a home recording studio in 1968,I myself have worked in a small recording studio have been a soundman for a band and play some guitar,My dad was also somewhat of a tweaker who built a Quadraphonic home systemin the early seventys,I may not be an engineer but having been around music all my life I try to get the most for my money,and you Delius started this,people were poking fun at HFSG, and if I read it correctly the guy selling the CLC was rude to someone who asked about them.

Those are Newtonian tweakers. Boring. Their heads are still stuck in the 18th century. THey shuffle speakers around and declare that "tweaking". And besides, I don't consider the PWB products "tweaks". It's a demeaning for the revolutionary products they are. They are "devices". Say it after me: "d-e-v-i-c-e-s".

Sweet mother Mary. And you guys wonder why I keep calling you idiots and morons? If you are correct, and you're a billion light years from being correct, then you've just made it impossible to talk about audio on an audio forum. Congratulations! We ALL go home. Because anyone that talks about ANY audio product, say they write about how much they love their Carver receiver, is "marketing" according to you.

I don't want to get you people more paranoid than you already are, because you're already "scary-paranoid", but just think about how many people in your life are "marketing you"? Your best friend tells you how great the meal was at Red Lobster last night. Well, those meals cost money, so he is "marketing you". Nothing more, nothing less. Your mother calls to tell you that she loves using her new excercise bike. Well, she's talking about a "product", and excercise bikes cost money. Be careful! Your mother is "marketing you". And don't read any audio magazines or walk into a hifi shop. Those are dens of "marketing". I suppose that leaves places like eBay or Audiogon with which to buy your audio junk. But have you read those ads? Those ads are PURE MARKETING, my friend. It seems like all they want to do is SELL you something.

As for me, you're confused. I'm the only person in the history of this forum you -can't- accuse of "marketing". That's because the only "product" I personally "peddled", is the one on the website I listed. And its a free means of allowing audiophiles to improve their audio system. So I'm less of a marketer than you are, Jason. You sent me to Audio Asylum, and its obvious why. It has sponsors which sell products. Products cost money, therefore, you're "marketing me". STOP MARKETING ME! I won't buy your crap, crap-marketer!


True dat. And one of the reasons I talk about my alternative audio products is to give (serious) audiophiles a place to go, so they can -stop- searching. I don't know if one ever really reaches "nirvana". But I've definitely found the path to the place.


Uh.... your point, Mr. Relevant? I don't think anyone here said that you can't possibly measure certain (limited) aspects of audio equipment via technical means. Its kind of like having a nurse take your pulse. It'll tell you whether you're alive or not, but it won't give you an extensive indication of what your medical condition is.

Maybe, but that's not what I meant by "sheep". I look for good sound too, for not a lot of money. And that's precisely what I find in Belt's products (which are not all cheap per se, but a lot cheaper than replacing components, and a lot more effective than upgrades). I'm not "sheep" though. The difference is, I don't allow people like "Sluggo" to tell me what is and isn't valid, in audio. I have enough confidence to use my own ears. Both you and Jason say that all of you here are looking for good sound. Yet, when HFSG, and even a guy named "GoodSound"! mentioned products that yield "good sound", products which cost you -nothing- in the end if they don't produce "good sound", you all roasted the f$%#ers on a spit. You trolled them to no end, insulted them to the heavens, and violently accused them of being frauds and scammers.

Think about what that says about you and your buds here. Think about how it makes you people look to others on the net. When I was searching the web for pics of the RF foil and came across a message from the thread in this forum and started to read the thread, I saw "sheep". Little fluffy "sheep" that don't think for themselves, and got VERY scared and paranoid when challenged to think, and consider views of the world that differed from what they were brainwashed to believe all their lives. And so you beat up the messenger. FACT: You're ALL rigid thinkers, and won't ever find truly "good sound" in your lives, with your narrow minded attitudes.

And if you're going to continue saying I'm wrong, here's another FACT: Not a single one of you has proven the science behind those products to be false, and not a single one of you has been brave enough to debate me on that. Even after I challenged everyone who beat up on HFSG and GoodSound in this thread, to do so. The closest I got, was having your "Sluggo" complain to me about me saying that in several hundred messages, no one here showed they were capable of having an intelligent debate on the subject of these products. And when I tried to have an intelligent debate with the troll, he bitched about his brain hurting from seeing too many words in my post, and my words competing with the complexity of a white paper.

Now how do you think THAT makes you people look to others on the net? Let's review the facts, shall we?: One guy says he tried the CLC clock and it works. He advocates that others try it. He explains you have money back guarantees if you don't think it works. All you redneck audio dilettantes pile ridicule and mockery on top of him. He sweats it off, never makes any personal attacks, and continues to encourage people to consider such products. You continue pumelling him with insults and then you get even uglier, with accusations of trolling, shilling, marketing and fraudulence. When he tries to explain how it works, instead of trying to refute it, never mind trying to understand it, Sluggo et al. heap on more ridicule, and denigration with comparisons to Scientology. So what have we seen here in this ode to ignorance called "Clever Little Clocks"? Backwoods rednecks with audio systems (presumably...), greatly threatened by the mere discussion of a tiny teeny eensy weensy little travel alarm clock. They have no inkling how it works, and when an attempt is made to explain it, they won't and even CAN'T understand it. They refuse to "believe" it, or even refute it.

No, I didn't start this. HFSG started this. I'm just finishing it. I want to show the world what the face of audio ignorance really looks like. You can consider that I'm making a statement about how people in our society today are ruled by fear, paranoia, hate (yes, "ridicule" is a form of hate), and ignorance. And when challenged to "think" by those with more knowledge and authority than them, they run and hide under their beds and scribble out Cliff Notes. Bite your ankle when you pass by....

By the way, I read that stuff on Audiogon about the CLC. Geoff was rude to the guy asking about them, because the guy asking about them was rude to Geoff. I would have done the same. It appears Geoff doesn't want to publicize his theories behind the clock. Why? Because of the sort of idiots and morons we find on forums like this, who's only purpose in life it seems, is to mock and ridicule that which they don't understand and show the world what ignorant morons look like. Kaitt got a faceful of that on AA, when he tried to expound on the theories behind another one of his products.

Obviously, he didn't think it helped to have people infinitely stupider than he is, mischaracterize his theories. And he wasn't going to be there on the spot to refute it every time someone did. So it appears he decided to just let the testimonials on the clock do the marketing. And what he told Audioaril on the phone about the theories was told in confidence. Audioaril not only publicized the information, but used it to mock Kaitt's clock. Kaitt then said he had learned not to ever say anything to Audioaril in confidence again.
Now tell me brightlight, how many audio engineers do you know who will even answer the damn phone and explain to you in person how their products work? There are too many people like those on this forum in this thread, who are too nasty, uncivilized, dumb and ignorant to do anything but mock and ridicule that which they don't understand.

Which brings us finally, to HFSG. Who started this, not me. You say people were "poking fun at him". And yet, you or someone else told me that people on this forum are civilized and "polite". Not "chest beaters with attitude", like on other audio forums. Clear, unadulterated bullsh*t. HFSG and GoodSound were always polite, and all they did was advocate audio products they personally used (who's companies they were not affiliated with). Yet they were called shills, frauds, scammers, trolls, and everything but "murderers". And you people never stopped attacking them for several hundred messages. Here's what one of you geniuses wrote about HFSG being a "shill" and Kaitt being a rip-off artist, without providing a single shred of evidence for such libelous claims and personal insults to members of this forum:

Ritz says:

This kind of vile groundless libel and villification of your fellow members and audiophiles arising from sheer stupidity and ignorance is a sad commentary on human nature. And the commentary you people continue to make about yourselves has become even sadder, since I planted my wagon.

Actually, I seem to recall doing most of the questioning of your assertion that intelligent debate was impossible here. I believe that I even offered to discuss the science behind the CLC as soon as I saw something scientific to debate. All we have are testamonials, as you have stated yourself several times now. Testimonials aren't science - no matter where they come from (and, yes, that includes any testimonials I offer about any hardware, software, literature, or other what-not that I express positive or negative experience with). They can be useful input, but debating them isn't going to get anybody very far. It becomes a debate of volume - who can vouch for the testamonials they agree with the loudest and the longest - because all you have is individual opinions, and even that is based on Internet communication. If we actually set out to debate testamonials, we could go so far as to question the origin of such testamonials - after all, anybody can put anything on the 'net. I could post a fictitious testamonial complete with photos of the dissection of a CLC if I chose to, and spin it any way I wanted. Will I? Nope - but my morals don't negate the fact that it can be done, just as any simple brief testamonial (positive or negative) can be created in a heartbeat. Would that "debate of volume" be an "intelligent debate"? Not by my definition, which is why I haven't sought out such a debate. Does that indicate an absence of bravery on my part? Again, not by my definition, but you are free to define me however you wish so long as you recognize that I don't have any intention of adopting those definitions for myself.

Well, I'll say this much: using the cream electret hasn't made delius sound any less arrogant, spiteful and trollish. That's my testimonial. Cream electret sucks, and so do you, delius.

If you really want an intelligent debate on this subject, and complain that we are all of us unable to have one, please tell us of any other forum where you are able to do so.