Actually Outlaw does offer a free trial period. You can read about it by clicking on the "Outlaw Homepage" link on the bottom of this page.

How can they be proven? By observation? By perception? By believing the technique is going to work? I'll say it again since you seem to be a little thick-headed: Opinion is not proof.

I could tell you I've tried the techniques posted on the websites you listed. I could tell you that I found they had no effect on my system. Is that proof they don't work? Is your telling me I'm not experienced enough to hear the changes proof they do?

This is my problem with your belief system. Learning to apply "Beltist" techniques has absolutely nothing to do with "audio". It may have to do with a person's perception of an event but in no way is it related to "audio".

If it was, why don't recording engineers use belt products? If they have that great of an effect on the reproduction of audio, why wouldn't they also have an amazing effect on the recording of audio?

Which leads me to the following: Since you keep quoting the JAES; are you a member of the AES?

I probably know more about "good sound" than you can ever dream about. My clients depend on my ears and they compliment me for them after every event.

It's the holiday season. I'm getting my fill of candy. And I'm getting some nice holiday cheer from the laughs your posts are giving me. The funniest thing about your posts is that you claim to be such an expert and yet, you never post about your own system, your occupation, or even your real name. Let me tell you, hiding behind a pseudonym gives real credit to your words.

How can we miss you, :rolleyes: if you won't go away?

Stop making threats, loudmouth. Nobody is the least bit intimidated by them, nor by your interminable essays.

Ummm... one might ask you the same question. You've posted literally tens of thousands of words violently defending the most transparent bit of snake oil I've ever heard of. Now, please, do stow it! Thanks!

Or what? You'll call me names? Or use your "bag of doorknobs"? You didn't write about it, doorknob. You simply pretended (you know, like you pretend to be an audio expert) to in order to avoid the arguement.

It certainly seemed to get to you, or you wouldn't keep bringing it up. And using your fake curse words.

Ah, your little angry rant misses one important issue: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No one here has made any extraordinary claims -only that we believe that all these folks, including yourself, are frauds. However, the extraordinary claims you make - and since you went to such lengths to show how the "powers that be" are trying to keep this stuff supressed, they are undoubtedly extraordinary - have no extraordinary evidence. But go on, tell us that they do, anyway, and that you've already given it to us when you haven't.

Sure. And now he's selling jars of pebbles for $129. Onward and upward, as it were.

Yeah, so? Are you saying that audiophiles can't be ripped off by Outlaw products or are you saying that Outlaw products are fraudulent too?

Yes.

Yes.

No. But two out of three ain't bad.

If you were able to take your head out of your arse while you were saying that, you might have a little more credibility junior. In audio, opinion is the only proof one requires. That's not just my opinion, that's a proven fact.

You could tell me a lot of things like that, but you'd be lying. As you've already done with me in your last message. I can tell you you never tried any Belt products. If you had, you wouldn't still be here flapping your gums about subjects you know nothing about.

Don't be silly. You obviously need to be schooled, you haven't the foggiest idea of what audio is about. And the problem is, I've already explained it like you're a 6-year old, and you're still not getting it. Are you being obtuse on purpose, or this is your natural state? Tell me junior, do you know of ANY audio product in existence that purports to improve fidelity, where everyone agrees that its valid, because it's "proven"? And no, don't say "speakers", that won't work either. Go on.... show us all how clever you aren't...

You can't prove a negative either, jr. That's why DBTs that fail to provide conclusive evidence of the merits of a DUT are not "proof" it has no effect. It only proves that listeners during that test were not able to discern any. Now let me dumb it down further for your consumption: it means that if you and a classroom of Jason J's all underwent an ABX test and found no audible differences to be had after testing, say a red x pen, that might simply be proof that your listening abilities are subpar. Maybe you need to be smacked upside the head with a pair of Cerwin Vega's to tell them from ProAcs. If you don't have any confidence in your own listening abilities, and its obvious you don't since you still haven't tried any of the freely available products or techniques for yourself and would much rather shoot your cakehole off about how they can't work in theory until you turn blue in the face, why should anyone else?


Oh grand Wizard of all things Belt. DO enlighten us on your obviously profound knowledge of alternative audio. If you want to get philosophical with me, dont you think you should have at least graduated from primary school? Okay listen carefully, it's really not that difficult a concept to grasp: Beltist products and techniques improve perception of sound. Without perception of sound, "audio" doesn't work. Now let me repeat that last sentence again, so you can take it in slowly and have a chance of understanding this basic fact: without perception of sound, "audio" doesn't work. Starting to get the picture Jr.? That's how Beltist techniques are related to audio.

Now here's the problem I have with YOUR sheep-like objectivist "belief system". You're stance here, is that every single audio product you buy that purports to improve sound, has to have been "proven" to do so by an ABX test. I'm sure no standard less than that is stringent enough for Jason Jr. (otherwise, you'd look like a stupid hypocrite, Jr.).

That includes your Outlaw products, it includes fancy-ass audiophile caps, it includes every possible cable and wire out there, it includes every component and accessory in your system. So okay Lambchops, show me the ABX tests that prove they improve sound. And no, pointing me to "general" ABX tests that show differences or no differences for a particular category of product won't cut the mustard. It doesn't prove the particular products you invested good money in do provide audible differences. Or if you wish to declare publically that you're a flat-earth objectivist drone who cares nothing about good sound, and did not base any of your audio purchases on that aspect, please do so now. And I will bury you on Boot Hill before noontime.


Oh, so "Mr. Proof" is now telling us that if recording engineers don't use Belt product, that's proof they don't work??? Geez, what a genius! Why are you wasting your intellectual talents on a web forum, man? Shouldn't you be out proving super string theory or something? At least silly string theory, perhaps? I've never seen MIT shotguns or for that matter, Quad ESL-63's in a recording studio. Does that mean they don't work too?

What makes you think recording engineers are the smartest people on the planet? Rocket scientists, psychologists, doctors and lawyers use Belt products. I would think that's more impressive than recording engineers, but ymmv. I don't think you're ready for the sad truth of why recording engineers don't use Belt products. But its directly related to your hollow groundless arguments and the accusations of fraud against these products by the mindless trolls here.

The answer being, Mr. Proof, that there are way too many mindless ignorant twits in the world. Aka "rigid thinkers" like you and the R. Mackey troll and almost all of the other members in this thread, who are too threatened to even consider changing their comfortable, safe and secure world views. So threatened, that even when you make it so easy to learn new things about audio and the world we live in, that they have only to visit a website, obtain materials within seconds that will take 2 minutes to prove or disprove to themselves, they wouldn't do that.

Mindless sheep do only what other mindless sheep do. I can state as fact that its only on a rare occasion that one of you willfully ignorant sheep will find enough courage and independent will within themselves to break from the flock, ignoring the chorus of "snake oil!" criers, and try the Belt products or techniques for themselves. And then they will usually come to learn why recording engineers, or most engineers for that matter, refuse to consider their validity. At least, publically....


Who says they wouldn't? One of those websites I listed shows a very small example of how it can affect digital recordings from the treatment of a cd burner, to where the results can still be heard by someone who has no Belt products in their home.


I invented the ABX comparator. I'm trying to keep a low profile because.... I don't want to be associated with it any longer.

Pfffft!!!! That's not necesary, Jr. You're plenty funny enough as it is, without having to get "stupid-silly".


So you're an earring model? How does that make you an expert on "good sound" in reproduced music? You talk a lot about "proof" Mr. Proof, but you offer NONE. What experience do your ears have with controlled listening tests? Tell me in detail about the ABX tests that you've done, (what equipment, controls, criteria, etc you used), and the results you personally obtained. Maybe you'll sound a little more credible here trying to defend your religion of the so-called "objective test".


Great! That makes two of us. Except trust me when I say, I'm getting far more laughs, because there are far more simpletons like you on this board than there are of me.... And like squealing children, you all say the silliest, thoughtless and most hypocritical things to me...

Well first of all, no one ever asked me. I've posted all those things on other forums before. Second of all, I've never seen you post those things since I've been here. Third of all,
[b]how in the holy wide world of sports does THAT have even a neutron of relevance to what I say about audio?[b] "Proof by authority"! What a joke! Seriously people, is Jason Jr. the best you guys could come up with to face me down? Well listen Jr. Listen -carefully-: My "audio system", my "occupation", and my "real name", does not make me an "audio expert". Having 30 years of testing experience and having -learned- from that experience ("learning" is key) about what is and isn't "good sound" in the reproduction of music, makes me an expert.

But since when in Cripees have I ever demanded that people believe what I say because I'm an expert?? That what sheep do, 'tard. And I'm here to fight ignorance and mindlessness, not foster it, wacko. When I contribute to an audio group, either I leave the sheep alone or I kick the sheep in their testes. I do NOT try to produce more sheep by creating a Cult of Personality or demanding that people pray to Gods of Authority! That's what sheep like you do, because you'd be lost without someone telling you what to think, and what to believe. That's the reason so many, like you, are so deluded and ignorant about audio in the first place. So what have -you- proven other than that you can blow hot air out your arse about the religion of controlled listening tests, which you seem to have never even participated in?


And you think displaying the cognitive skills of a clinical retard in your responses gives credit to yours? I find it funny, this mindless sheep-like audio religion of yours, where you pretend to stand for the "scientific method", despite not knowing a damn thing about science. Meanwhile, you hold authority figure "Gods" as the holders of all audio truth and knowledge. "Gods" who have more experience" and "audio wisdom" than the common audiophile. "Gods" who run controlled double blind listening tests, and can tell you exactly whether an audio product is or isn't going to produce a difference in perceptible sound. Without you even having to think for yourself, fancy that.

Interesting though, that you would publicly discredit your fellow Outlaw members here, stating that all members from Sluggo, to Bang4ABuck to Gonk to Loopy to Laventura and so on and so on, have nothing but bullsh*t to contribute here. On this point, we may finally be in agreement, Jr. Happy holidays.

as far as seeing BS...
one usually finds what he's looking for...

Sure. And you now spend your days writing a paragraph refuting every sentence written by everyone in this little forum who disagrees with you. Onward and upward, as it were.

Further proof that we are dealing with an automated forum post generation system:
Sluggo's post was added at 6:49pm and it contained 1,389 characters (289 words).
D.E.L.I.U.S' post was added at 7:56 pm, it contained 9,822 characters, not counting spaces, 11,950 otherwise (2,078 words).
This means that someone would have had to:
1) been waiting around for a response
2) read, analyze and scrutinize nearly 300 words
3) carefully and methodically deconstruct such response, and
4) draft a response of nearly 7 times as many words.
All this in about an hour.
Maybe those clocks CAN bend time and space!

I have to go, my amplifier's avocados are getting smushy. I need to replace them with gummy bears.

I've hung around this thread as of late primarily because I dislike the obnoxious, insulting, and arrogant attitude presented by delius - joyously declaring anyone around him to be idiots because we don't believe in various scientifically baseless principles. I recognized the trend some time ago: a love of arguing with and insulting strangers on the internet, using things that cannot be proven or disproven as the foundation for the arguments. We have Belt's premises that can't be disproven because they can't be traditionally proven in the first place. There was even a cursory mention of orgone energy that produced another vehement objection toward my lack of faith, a tangential discussion that fits the mold very nicely. The result is a catch-22: if you try to carry on a calm, reasonable discussion (like bestbang4thebuck has attempted to do) then you get called childish names and told that you are stupid, and if you argue (be it with sarcasm, carefully thought-out logic, or snide comments) you get the same result. Makes me really appreciate Yossarian's predicament...
Funny that you mention that site... You've asked (and asked, and asked), so about a week ago I burned those MP3 files to a CD-R and tossed them in my DVD player (since I lacked any headphones and didn't think that cheap PC speakers are a good test of anything, I figured my main system would be a reasonable test). Last weekend, I gave those files a few listens while my wife and daughter both napped. The two versions of Jingle Bells were a handy test, particularly when I repeated the first ten seconds using both tracks, but I gave all six files some attention. At the most, there was perhaps a slightly higher volume level on the "full metal jacket" version of Jingle Bells, but no more than a decibel - aside from that, the two were effectively indistinguishable. I scratched my head a bit and decided to give it the ol' college try: I burned all six files to an audio CD and tried again. My 981HD passed the PCM audio to my 990, which was set to upsample mode. The results were the same.

Bottom line: I tried the MP3 files. I found no appreciable difference in the files. I continue to find no reason to give any merit to HiFiSoundGuy/GoodSound's shallow attempts at trying to sell Machina Dynamica products here in this forum, or to the value of devices like the Clever Little Clock. The catch-22? The fact that I believe these things even after listening to MP3 files that were manipulated with Belt techniques will not lessen delius's rude and insulting posts. Right there with ya', Yossarian...

1) Problem with that geek conspiracy theory is, I never responded to Sluggo's post that you refer to here, you imbecile. In fact, I never even read it. Nice to see you have quite the obsession with me, to where you're counting all the words of the posts I write, and the people you think I'm writing to. I'd know if I should feel flattered, or threatened by that.

2) You're the one who sounds like an "automated forum post generation system". You've posted the very same thing several times, and I've seen this very same idiotic conspiracy theory on other forums from users with other names.

3) This shows how easily dumb, gullible, Outlaw members get "suckered" into believing things by those representing "knowledge of authority", presenting "good sounding fallacies" as "facts".

Perhaps now you all understand why I keep pointing out how stupid you AA naysayers are? You keep basing your knowledge of audio, people, life, the world... on what idiots like what garcianc2003 tell you, rather than arriving at conclusions based on the knowledge that comes from experience, and your own mind. Sorry my little bo peep sheep... There is and can be, no substitute for experience.


Oh my God. Mockery of that which you are ignorant of. Any idea what an original thinker you are, AFPG (automated forum post generator)? I'll tell you how much. Someone who came long before you, as a response to my serious discussions of alternative audio techniques, suggested to me that they are going to try pineapple slices. Since you obviously must consider yourself such a brilliant and original satirist, I have a suggestion for you: why don't you next suggest pineapple slices?