I have really been wondering how much difference treating my room would make. I have very reflective paneling on all but the front walls. I have also been investigating room treatment on the web.

There are very costly products available that are ready to be hung, but I wanted to get an idea of the kind of improvement it would actually make in my room with my system. I started looking at the DIY room treatment recipes and could not find the fiberglass duct board many had talked about using.

Then, it dawned on me that this duct board is very similar to fiberglass ceiling tiles, an item I have many of as I ripped out a ceiling downstairs a couple years back and threw the tiles in the attic. I took the tile (fiberglass side facing out and thumbtacked them to the walls in the groves of the paneling so as not to ruin the walls yet.

I put tiles diagonally in all four corners and at the first and second order reflections from the front L/R speakers. I also placed a half tile 2' x 2' between the surround back channels. The cement floor is carpeted so I did nothing with the floor. I also turned the tiles in the ceiling over so the fiberglass side was facing down at the reflection points from the front speakers.

All this was just to get an idea of the difference treating the room would make. I was quite surprised. The front speakers were much clearer and imaging is incredible. I also noticed much more continuity when effects circulate all the way around the room. Bass also became much more defined.

Now, knowing I do want to treat the room, I thought "Hey, I'll take some peg board put the ceiling tile (fiberglass side facing out)on top of it, put a couple layers of polyester batting on top of that and stretch burlap across it all and staple it to the back. Well, it takes about 20 minutes to make one tile and I will spend about $90 to make 12 full size tiles.

I have made four of the tiles and will try to finsh up the rest over the holiday weekend and hang them all. I figure if it doesn't work out, I'm only out $100; belive me, this is cheap compared to some audio products I have bought and got minimal increases in performance out of them. They don't look as professional as the ones you can buy and I'm sure they don't provide as good of performance, but the result of even just the bare ceiling tiles was quite dramtic on my room.

Slap echo before setting the tiles in the room was very bad. The room was very reverberant. With the bare tiles the slap echo was not gone, but greatly reduced. I am hoping the polyester batting will further reduce or even eliminate it. If all fails I'm just out a few bucks and 8 or 10 hours. Hey, what else am I going to do this weekend? Yeah, I could get around to building a center channel speaker stand. Yeah, I could st up the SMS-1, but response is going to change greatly after treating it.

I'll report back once my project is complete. I welcome any suggestions or ideas.

You might want to look into this website:

www.gikacoustics.com

I'm forgetting which board, I think it was at the Tape Op board, but the owner of this company and Ethan Winer, the owner of Realtraps, have both been supporting each other's product as they each target a different frequency range. The GIK panels also seem to be getting some good user reviews.

I don't have the room yet to build in, but when I do, I think I've narrowed down my acoustic panel choices to these two companies. My current idea is two of the GIK panels at the first reflection points on the side walls, a couple of Realtraps for the corners, and probably some bookshelves across the back wall for some diffusion. Of course, this is theoretical, but it comes from trying to decipher the acoustical articles that I've read. I also recommend reading the articles at realtraps.com for other acoustical tips.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

I have been holding off on building my own panels until I can find the rigid fiberglass insulation. There was a recent post on a pro-audio website that reported some Lowes carrying OC-703. I have not checked my local store yet.

Worst case, a few places online carry rigid fiberglass. Here's one:
http://www.atsacoustics.com/cat--Raw-Sound-Absorption-Materials--102.html

I have speaker cloth samples coming to me in the mail from http://www.speakerworks.net/grill_cloth.html. Hopefully this stuff is visually opaque to hide the 'glass, the price seems right.

I ended up getting really busy last weekend and was not able to finish the traps, which stinks because my HT room is trashed right now. I have noticed a great deal of improvement already, but am also realizing that I need more (thicker traps).

I have been talking with Glenn from Gik Acoustics and I am going to go ahead and go that route as they will perform much better than the ones I can construct and will look better too. I will be able to treat the room (19' x 11.5' x 7') for a little over $700.

Yeah, I realize it sounds like a lot of dough (and it is to me), but it is less than or equal to what I spend on many single pieces of equipment. I also have proof ahead of time after my experimenting that it will greatly improve the sound in my room (more than any other upgrade I have done by a considerable margin).

Thanks for your suggestions. Now, I just have to work on the wife for a few days. It sounds as if it may take a week or two to get the panels as they are made to order for the most part. I will post my thoughts and results when I have hung the panels.

That sounds awesome Doug. Please do post your results with GIK panels.

That's a great way to justify the cost by equating it to another piece of equipment. The only exception being that this new "equipment" will only become outdated if you decide to move!

i can honestly say that i have not dabbled in room treatments much. not because i think it is unimportant, but because my ht stuff has always been in a multipurpose room, rather than dedicated ht. there are a ton of factors influencing acoustics - primarily room size and shape. the thing that has caught my eye is the sheetrock that is designed for ht. i have not priced it (and there are several options), but it would look the most natural and offers good performance. what i would like is enhanced sound in the ht room as well as preventing sound to escape the room (and disturb neighbors, other people in the house, etc.).

my ht area now is a disaster acoustically and i have noticed a difference in perceived quality compared to other places i have lived, but i havent had the luxury to settle into one place long enough to dedicate what it takes to make it better. i will be moving again before too long, but then likely again, so its hit or miss. at least i am making progressively more money, so i can afford the treatments at all though!

curegeorg,

Room treatment does not have to be attached to one place. I am going to attach panels to the four corners of the room, but for the first reflections from the front speakers, I will be attaching the panels to stands so they can be moved around if equipment changes (namely speakers) and so I can access what is behind them easily (DVDs on one side of the room). Stands could be used for the panels in the corners of the room as well, but by hanging them in the corners I will save a couple hundred bucks on the stands and they will not interfere with the room too much.

My room has to be much worse than many other peoples as the shiny wood paneling on the walls is super reflective. If I had the room to build again, things would be done much differently including a fake wall (fabric) at the front of the room with all my speakers placed behind it. Acoustic panels would also be built into the decor.

Maybe someday. I have to wait five or ten years so the wife can't say "You just built that room a few years back. It works fine, you don't need to rebuild it." Truthfully, I think it will be pretty solid, once I get the panels and install them. Besides, if I wait to rebuild for ten years I will just find another dozen or so things I want to change for the better anyhow.

My room is multi-purpose too. L-shaped with each "leg" of the L being 24' long and 12' wide. Furniture placement is a pain. The 12' dimension has proven to be a couple feet too narrow. The walls are T&G pine paneling and the floor is shiny pine. Oh, I also have 50' of baseboard radiators. A frequency sweep sounds like a symphony of doorbell buzzers!

yeah, i know treatment doesnt have to be permanent. for me, right now, there is little i can do. one side has a sliding glass door, and the other is 95% open (into a dining room). oh and we have 1 story crawl space below the room (on a hill). i will be moving soon enough.

i do not care for the look of most acoustical treatments, that is why i mentioned the sheetrock. it would be pretty much invisible. same goes for the false wall approach.

Well, I got my acoustic panels installed this weekend and.....wow! I had no idea I would gain this much. The channels are very separated from one another and the bass is amazing. It also took the small amount of harshness my room was producing out of the mix. I will go into more detail and get some pics up later in the week. It looks better than I thought it would but my wife still thinks it looks insane (what does she know .

Hey Doug,

Thank you very much for the kind words and please let me know if there is any other things I can help you out with.. I think you and I talked on the phone yesterday (sorry if I have you mixed up with someone else) let me know how the ceiling comes out with the fiberglass..

Glenn

Doug - looking forward to the pics and more info!

Hey Glenn,

Does this mean I get a referral discount if I get some of your panels?

Seriously, I'm putting an offer in on a house tomorrow so maybe in a few months I'll be contacting you...

I had a couple minutes to take some pics tonight (excuse the room and cabling, it's still a mess). I am waiting to recieve some new cables and may add a few more panels (my paneling is way too reflective) and some fiberglass in the ceiling before I really clean things up.









Overall the panels have easily made the biggest difference thinking back on any single piece I have added to my HT (perhaps even any two pieces I have added). I went with the following panels:

--Corners (4)- GIK 7.5 inch panels (Glenn hasn't named them yet)
--First Reflections (2)- GIK 242 panels with stands

Things I notice after adding the panels include the following:

--Sweet spot is much wider now
--Much tighter bass - especially in Jazz and music
--Crystal clear dialogue
--More identifiable positions between speakers across the front channels
--Bipolars in rear seem to be more localized for rear effects
--Front-to-back and circular pans are smoother
--Echo in the room has been nearly eliminated
--Panels have also greatly reduced light reflections in the front of the room

I think I will probably add 3 more of the 242 panels or perhaps 1 of the 244 and 2 of the 242 panels. I am thinking of putting one horizontally behind my center channel reaching out towards the L/R channels, 1 on the ceiling at the first reflection point and 1 on the back wall at the ceiling/wall joint centered on the wall or possible between the speakers (feel free to throw me a bone here Glenn as you can get a better idea of what I am dealing with from the pics).

I have wondered about room treatment for a long time, but always ended up buying something flashier or with buttons and knobs. I now know this should have been one of the first things I did. I may have it worse than most due to my room being super reflective, but it has made a huge difference in the perceived sound in the room. Glenn has been great to work with and is a fun guy to talk to as well. His products are for real, and like Outlaw, provide great bang for your buck.

I will update things again when I am finished adding fiberglass and additional panels. Feel free to ask me anything in the mean time as it may take me a while to accomplish all this.


Glenn, a few comments / suggestions:

1) The wire you send with the panels for hanging them hurts when you poke yourself with a strand (yes I found out). I ended up using 16 gauge speaker wire with the plastic sheathing and tied it to the eyelets. This worked very well and was much easier to work with.

2) On the stands, I ended up putting an extra eyelet on each side towards the bottom and an extra eyelet at the bottom of each panel to be mounted on the stands. I then used twine to pull the panels secure against the frames at both the top and bottom. Just securing the top did not keep the panel secure enough against the stand and when moving them if would fall down over the horizontal ridge at the bottom. Adding the eyelet and twine negated this and the panels can be easily moved without comming off.

3) You should sell some sort of mounting brackets as well. I ended up using some small knobs (they were actually pieces from my old speaker brackets) that only required two screws so I wouldn't have to really deface any walls. These would be especially helpful when trying to space something out away from the wall.

Hey Doug,

Wow man those pictures look great.. Thank you so much for taking the time to not only take the pictures but describing the effects you are receiving.. Most people just don't understand how much the room can effect sound..

>1) The wire you send with the panels for hanging them hurts when you poke yourself with a strand (yes I found out). I ended up using 16 gauge speaker wire with the plastic sheathing and tied it to the eyelets. This worked very well and was much easier to work with.<

I am going to give this some thought and see if maybe we can come up with something.. Either that or I am going to send Band-Aids with the panels..

>2) On the stands, I ended up putting an extra eyelet on each side towards the bottom and an extra eyelet at the bottom of each panel to be mounted on the stands. I then used twine to pull the panels secure against the frames at both the top and bottom. Just securing the top did not keep the panel secure enough against the stand and when moving them if would fall down over the horizontal ridge at the bottom. Adding the eyelet and twine negated this and the panels can be easily moved without coming off.<

The stands are brand new, so I am sure it will go through many changes.. The thought at first was to make a stand that even the DYI people could use, so your idea would still work well..

>3) You should sell some sort of mounting brackets as well. I ended up using some small knobs (they were actually pieces from my old speaker brackets) that only required two screws so I wouldn't have to really deface any walls. These would be especially helpful when trying to space something out away from the wall.<

We did come up with something for the corner mounting but after we installed it we concluded that it still was not any easier to mount.. Work in progress, work in progress..


Before you buy any more panels get the ceiling done and lets see what you have.. I know I should tell you just to buy more, but it will become more clear what you need after the ceiling is done..


Keep me posted,

Glenn

Hey Everyone,

Just one other note.. There is a website called AV Science where a person did a case study of acoustics in his home theater.. The link is
http://www.sbrjournal.net/currentissue/articles/acoustics/Acoustics.htm
I think it is very well written and easy to read..

Glenn

Nice job Doug...looks great to me (but my wife would freak if and when I make such a move).

What's with the new 7.5 inch corner panels? Something new from GIK...lower bass absorption?

Oh the monster trap?? Yea this baby is really pretty cool.. The nice thing is you don't need to fill up your room full of traps.. Actaully 2 in the front corners with maybe a couple more 244's in the room would pretty much do it..


Panel specs
Weight: 29.2 pounds
Dimensions: 2'x4' 7.5 inches thick

Ok one last SHAMELESS bragging point, but this is a email I got this morning from a person who got 2 Monsters and 2 244's:


Glenn

This is bar FAR the best UPGRADE or is it ADDITION I have ever made...I was
never skeptical that it would work, what I was skeptical was more if there
was going to enough impact to make me say WOW...and boy oh boy..this was the
1st time that I was truly blown away. For the 1st time I actually enjoyed 2
channel music..I never knew why so many people enjoyed it so much but when
I sat down and played some of my favorite tunes, I went up to my center
speaker because i thought it was on - music seemed centered - I literally
couldnt tell where the music was coming from..guitars, bass was so different
but it felt right..the boominess is gone, the certain ambience
difference..that impressed me, I felt like I was in acoustical room - I
played a scene from Harry Potter Prisoner of Azkaban, when their in the
squeaky house and you can actually feel the depth in that part that I never
knew existed...CAN YOU TELL HOW EXCITED I AM...I didnt get to sleep till
midnight..and I get up at 4:45a.m for work...I placed the monsters up front
in the corners and the other 244 I put in the back corners (all straddle to
the corners and left on standing -not mounted)..my wife didnt mind me just
having them there..that always helps..

Anyways..look for me to write a poor mans review on your product on
audiocircle and AV123...Can I buy more?? ahh..I almost had you..I will later
but for now I think I have an awesome balance for HT and Music..not too dead
and definitely not too alive...

DAMN I didnt know 2 x 4 was that big..ah..I forgot..Im short...

I know I'm sort of responsible for getting GIK introduced to this board, but, please remember this is the Outlaw board. Posting unrelated customer reviews on another companies board is a little over the top...

YOu are totally right and I am very sorry.. Guess I get going and just can't stop... Trust me it is more about bragging then selling..
BTW, if you are building them I am more then happy to answer any questions you may have..

Sorry about that guys

On the subject of DIY room treatments , I read that rolls of fiberglass insulation such as you would find in a hardware store actually make pretty effective bass traps. Has anyone heard of this and does it really work?

wingnut,

You could do this. As I mentioned, I started experimenting using fiberglass ceiling tiles. It gave me an idea of how things would sound, then I went for the GIK panels.


Glenn,

I have put some R-3(10" thick) fiberglass in the ceiling all along the first reflection point. I have also sealed the room as their used to be gaps at the top of the two walls I built above the ceiling tiles. It has added what appears to be the final touch. I am very happy with things now and think I will wait on any additional panels. I'll see what I think next month . Thanks again for all the help.

See I told you that would most likely do the trick... Now go tell the wife I saved you about $200.00 in more panels.. ha ha ha

wingnut,

Yes the bags of fluffy fiberglass works pretty well.. Make sure you stack it from floor to ceiling in all corners.. You might find though that using rigid fiberglass is going to save you money.. Last time I was at Lowes I think a bag of fiberglass was over $25.00 and you would need 4 for each corner (or more depending on room size)..
But the bag fiberglass is nice because you don't even need to take it out of the bad.. Just stack it up and you are done!

Glenn

Glenn,

With all the dough I have dropped on electornincs and my HT room in the last six months (bought 2 Outlaw 755 amps, Outlaw 990, Velodyne SMS-1, Emotiva UL combo, Outlaw LFM-1, and of course the GIK panels -- crap, I think I may have a problem) I think it would still hurt me to point out that I saved a couple hundred bucks. Seeing that in writing, I better take the wife out shopping this weekend.

wingnut,

I'm assuming you are single?

Thanks Glenn. I was in the Home Depot to look at the bags and they are mighty huge. Is it important to stack them all the way up or is it ok to stack them halfway? I am just concerned about aesthetics. Also , can I cover them with cloth?

OR...

How about if I were to stuff a couple of tall , rectangular boxes with the insulation. Would that work at all? TIA

Doug,

Not single but I have a pretty understanding partner that will put up with a lot. Besides, I do the decorating so as long as I can camoflauge stuff or at least make it look cool everything is ok.

Doug,

I am more of a studio guy, but I totally understand what you are talking about.. The only I get a way with buy gear is to claim TESTING to my girlfriend... Sometimes it works and sametimes the BS flag goes up..

Wingnut,

You can try it half way up and see how it goes.. I have only heard of people doing it that way and have not tested a room that way. But more is better...
I will test it and see what I come up with... I will report the graphs to you.. It may take a month or so..

Excellent! Thanks

Just an update on the insulation bass traps:

I am still experimenting with sub placement and this week I placed my sub in the RF corner. I like it here but I had a dip from about 80hz to 100hz of about 10db. I tried adjusting the phase etc. to no avail. Still an ugly dip...SO......

I got a couple of rolls of Owens Corning R-13 and stuffed them in the FL corner of the room just to see if it would have any effect at all. Well to my surprise, it almost entirely flattened out the dip and brought it up almost the whole 10 db. I was amazed!! Cool trick.

See I ain't so dum!!!! ha ha ha..

Glad I could help you out!!

Ha..No you are not. I was really pleasantly surprised though.

Just so I don't have the Pink Panther staring at me from behind the speaker, is there a fabric that you would recommend to cover them in? Does it matter which fabric or will any do since it's for low frequency?Thanks :p

Pretty much any fabric is fine for bass traps.. I don't think there is a fabric on the market that could make 200hz reflect.

Oooooo....gold lame' !!
Ha...thanks again.