Wondering if anyone else is experiencing increased bass levels in STEREO and UPSAMPLE modes vs. BYPASS. This happens when I feed a digital signal (CD via digital coax) as well as analog (PHONO). Not that I would ever go through the A/D - D/A process for the PHONO, but it's puzzling for CD playback. However, I've read that most people cannot hear the difference between BYPASS and UPSAMPLE (except for the increased volume level). The front speakers are set to LARGE, and subwoofer is set to NONE. I checked the treble & bass settings, and they're at 0. I then used a direct connection from by CD (with variable out) directly to my amp (thus taking the 990 out of the signal path), and the STEREO and UPSAMPLE modes are obviously outputting unnatural amounts bass. I don't believe this is related to any sort of bass mgmt issue. Any others experience this?

I think it's because when you use the BYPASS mode.. it does not use the subwoofer.. hence bypass. bypasses the video section and the subwoofer as I understand it.

I did too notice an increase in bass when using Stereo and Upsample. i prefer Bypass and Upsample the best for 2 channel listeing to music.

It appears that you were comparing the d/a processing of your cd player with the 990's processing. In my opinion, we should here the different when the quality of the D/A converter is of big different.

Kwok

As skyblazer points out, in bypass mode, you bypass the cross-over and subwoofer; sending the full signal to the mains. If you're hearing a deeper bass, then that's probably because your sub is capable of reproducing lower frequencies. If you're hearing a louder bass, then you might want to re-visit your channel callibration; you might have the sub level set too high.

To some degree the sub/LFE level is a matter of personal taste; I suspect lots of folks have it set a little higher than 'flat'.

No sub installed. But as Skyblazer noted, there's definitely increased bass output in the STEREO & UPSAMPLE modes compared to BYPASS - even for just the front 2 speakers. Since I don't have a sub installed, and the sub option is set for NONE, there should be no bass management processing when only listening to the front 2 speakers. I understand that in surround modes, the bass from any surround channel including center is redirected to the fronts based on the x-over settings for the surround channels. However, for just front 2 speaker stereo operation, the frequency response should prettly much stay the same whether in STEREO, BYPASS, or UPSAMPLE modes. I'm in my 3rd week with the 990; I'm really impressed with the sound quality, but there are obvious usability and processing execution issues. I've got another week to decide whether to keep it, and I'm quite torn about it.

-deleted-
Just realized you said there was more bass on upsample/stereo, not the other way around.
Sorry.

what is your sub offset set to? Is it negative?

He doesn't have a sub at all, so sub offset should not play a role in his system.

Gonk:
Ah - sorry. Long day - missed that point.

No sweat - long day here, too, and it didn't click with me at first either that there wasn't a sub.

A little late for the original poster, but nonetheless...

I was having the same problem with my new 990, configured for 4.0, generating way too much bass when listening to stereo sources and after more research I think I understand what's going on now. The short answer, perhaps counterintuitive, is that you can fix your problem if you go into the Speaker Size configuration and set your subwoofer size to "LFE only".

Here's what I think's happening. If you think about what PL II or DTS does when it's creating surround from stereo, it's generating the center, surround and subwoofer tracks from a two channel source, essentially out of thin air. After doing this, the 990 routes the (newly created) .1 LFE track to the subwoofer, but if you've set your subwoofer size to "NONE" then that LFE track gets mixed back into your "large" speakers, effectively adding in extra very low bass.

But if you instead set your subwoofer size to "LFE only", the 990 sends the .1 LFE track to the subwoofer jack instead of mixing it into your "large" speakers. This track is then lost (since you don't actually have a subwoofer attached), but that's what you want. CDs sound fantastic in surround here with this setting.

Remember to set the size back to "NONE" whenever you're listening to true 5.1 (or better) source material (e.g. SACD, DVD-A, or 5.1 movies) or else you'll be missing bass in those cases.

It's a pity the 990 can't do this automagically, but perhaps the real fault lies in the definition of the music surround modes for PL II and DTS because that's just way too much bass for most stereo sources.

I am also having this problem (see my post regarding 990 recording). It seems any analog signal I send has greatly increased bass. I called Outlaw and they stated that in the stereo mode, using an analog signal, the subwoofers are fed a full range signal. I guess bass mangement is different for the analog signal. One solution is to activate the crossovers in your subs, if you have them. However the problem with that is that you now have two sets of crossovers (990 and sub) interacting. One change begets another. However, I was able to get a "useful" compromise doing this. However I am going to try something different. I have speaker level inputs on the subs. I can run speaker wire from the 990 to the sub and use the subs crossovers to pick off the bass and then send the rest of the signal via speaker wire to the mains (I have def tech bp 20's and two def tech subs). On the 990 I am going to set the fromt speakers to large. In effect the subs/main are running as one. Hopefully this way I can obtain proper equalization from both analog and digital signals. I asked outlaw if this issue was something that might be fixed in a firmware update and the response was no. It was hardware related. This is a complicated issue and hopefully I did not mistate anything regarding my conversation with Outlaw. If anyone has a different understanding of how the system works please post.

What appears to be happening is when you have processing on (Stereo and Upsampling etc) a sub signal is being generated for the nonexistent sub and then since you have sub off it is going to your mains. Derrell's workaround above may do the trick. Outlaw has said they are working on a fix for some bass management issues.

My experience with the bass issue is very different from what you guys have posted. I only play stereo music CDs, and never use sound processing like DTS or prologic II, etc. I found that the bass in Stereo, Bypass, and Upsample modes are basically the same. This is probably because the DSP in my CD player (Rotel RCD 1720) is as good as the one in Outlaw 990. However, the bass in the subwoofer becomes much louder and sounds better (deeper) when I switched to the 5.1 channel stereo. Why is there such a big difference in the bass from subwoofer between Stereo/Bypass/Upsample and the 5.1-channel Stereo modes?

In the set up menu, I have my front L/R speakers (Dynaudio Contour S1.4) set to “Small”, crossover to 80 Hz, and Subwoofer to “L/R+sub” . A center speaker is also enabled and connected. But I do not have any surround speakers connected. The front and center speakers are connected to Outlaw 7500 power amp. Analog signals from Rotel RCD-1072 CD player are feed to 990 preamp. The LFM-1 subwoofer is connected the subwoofer out of 990. All cables were from BlueJeans.com. Balanced cables are used to connect Outlaw 7500 and 990.

If you don’t have a subwoofer why not just use Bypass mode for 2-channel listening? The only reason I can think of for using the Stereo or Upsample mode is if you want to engage the bass management feature of the 990. Since you have no sub there would be no reason to use bass management in 2-channel mode. The original question in this topic was about the different 2-channel modes. What about Dolby D and DTS? Do they work as expected when you do not have a subwoofer in your system?

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Your stereo sub setup is not extremely common, but it's also not unheard of. I believe that your issue is one of the bass management problems that Outlaw is planning to resolve with the firmware update. We don't have any information on when the update will arrive, but it is in the works.

TommyBoy

You bring to light something I thought in my mind but didn’t give much thought. My main speakers are full range but I also have a sub so I set the fronts to large and the sub to L/R+Sub. I thought it strange that you could still set the Xover for the mains when it was set to large. The Xover setting should not even be available when set to large. I would say this is a design problem. If I had known about all these flaws in the bass management of the 990 I probably would not have purchased it. I am still in the 30 day trial period and am considering sending it back because of this problem and some others that bug me about how the 990 works. I wish I knew what fixes they intend to include in the software upgrade they are working on.

First let me say I am competely satisfied with My 990,in my configuration. I use stereo subs paired with L and R speakers, a third sub driven by the 990 sub Out, and all speakers set to large and sub set to LFE only. However, with that said I think it is time for the Outlaws to publish a Matrix of all possible speaker setting with the crossover effects for all inputs. I was truly amazed to find that crossover setting worked on speakers set to large, when sub is set to LR+sub. I agree with the above post, crossover should not affect speakers set to Large,EVER. Setting speakers to large is the only way to bypass the digital processor in the 7.1 direct mode, but it is not in the manual, it just got passed along by word of mouth.
I am ready to see a matrix of how the 990 operates now , vs how It will operate with the new software. There has been to much speculation and work-arounds put forth on this forum with no real input from the Outlaws. IMHO the lab and beta test plans were poorly written or not followed. Or maybe there is some sane reason for the way it seems to operate. I am not asking for software tomorrow, just something that will clear the air on how this highly complex pre/pro really works. The datas for such a matrix has to be allready available and should be easy to publish, while not delaying the proposed software fix.

As close as we are to the firmware update (Scott just posted that it's in final beta testing and should roll out in the next two weeks), I don't know that there's all that much need to provide "before and after" descriptions. On the other hand, a good summary of bass management behavior would be very useful - and I suspect something can be developed in the near future.

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Outlaw's gotten pretty cautious about release dates since the Model 950 launch - if Scott says two weeks, I'd feel pretty comfortable about it.

I quess I should read all threads before I post. Two weeks sounds great, however I still would like to see a Operatibility Matrix for all inputs that are affected by bass management. We should not have to discover a whole set of new design feature/flaws. I certainly hope the same people who did the orignal beta test are not being used on this release. I may not be fair with this statement, maybe they did ID the flaws and Outlaw did not desire to change them at the first release. Don't anyone get me wrong I am not an Outlaw basher, they have excellent products and excellent customer service. I just want to see from them, in form I can read, how all bass management features work. I am tired of "I spoke to Scott".

The reason I am satisfied is; with my sub set to LFE only, I do not get the double bass that is present when I do your test previously posted. Matter of fact I get no signal to my third sub in this config and there is no increased bass presence no matter the front crossover setting. If the crossover is infact active in the LFE Only setting I cannot detect it with my ears.

Please see my updated post in the following thread .

Last night I did some testing with my Radio Shack SPL meter and Test CD 3 from Stereophile. Track 17 of this test CD has test tones that step in third octave increments from 200Hz down to 20. For all my tests I disconnected my sub and front speakers are set to large.

With all my tests I conformed what TommyBoy found when the Sub was set to None. I also confirmed what Paratrooper found when the sub was set for LFE only. I also tested with sub set to L/R+Sub. When the sub was set for LFE only or L/R+Sub there was no difference between Bypass and Upsample no matter what I set the X-Over to. Something else I found was that when sub was set for LFE or L/R+Sub the volume level between Bypass and Upsample was identical.

From what I found the sub should not be set to None even if you don’t have a sub. I know it shouldn’t be this way and hopefully the software update will change that along with some other things.

On a related subject, below is a link to an article on Polk Audio’s Web site on how to connect a subwoofer. They agree that bass management is a confusing topic and they have some suggestions that you may find useful.

http://www.polkaudio.com/education/article.php?id=19

I am looking forward to the update software release.
One of my biggest complaints is that i've never used a processor that couldn't remember different speaker settings for DD and DTS.

Once set up.... and 990 remembers the settings for both DD and DTS. I find that to be wrong. DTS to me seems to need different speaker settings.. because of the way it's audio track is mastered for DVD's.

DD would (I assume) be mastered differently than DTS. SO IMHO the 990 should be able to remember two sets of speakers settings, not just one for both.

that would be cool if the software update would address this issue.

Skyblazer - When you say speaker settings are you referring to the bass management functions such as the crossover points? I don’t understand how a DD or DTS mix would change this characteristic of your speakers. I could possibly see a sub level offset similar to what is already present for movies versus music, but the crossover characteristics of your speakers shouldn’t change based on the mix. Sorry if I’m missing your intent.

obie, yes.. my Marantz receiver would remember a set up for DD and one for DTS sound tracks. Really, both DD and DTS sound different.

The end result you hear between DD and DTS is still 5.1 or more... but with DTS not being as compressed.. i'm now finding myself keep having to raise the center channel level when I watch a DD movie.

My front three speakers are timbre matched to work with each other.. all Polk Audio. Maybe this is just me being picky.. but I can tell the difference between DD and DTS when compared to each other. War of the Worlds is a good example of a movie having both DD and DTS sound tracks on it.

So you are talking just levels and not crossover, got it. In theory if the system is balanced for one format it should be balanced for both. I understand the differences in soundtracks but I’d think it would be more a function of the mix then the format (DD vs DTS) used.

Just out of curiosity where do you have your center mounted? I’ve also read fairly convincing arguments that timbre matched centers are not necessarily a good thing due to the nature of center channel movie soundtrack content. I know that when I send test tones to my center and mains it is of slightly different timbre.

Having said all that you are correct some soundtracks are just have plain mixed poorly.

When I set up my speakers.. i first use the Auto set up from the 990. It's pretty close I have found for proper levels.

When i want to set things up manually. I use a Discwasher digital set up disc. It has a seperate set up set of tones for DD and for DTS. Giving me the reason for the different set ups required for each.

Yes in theory, you should only have to set up your speaker one time.. and it should be fine for all sources and decoding of those sources. But as mentioned earlier, I find that DTS seems to run a bit on the "hot" side.. making my set up setting slightly different between DD and DTS.

Anyway, lets get past that.

I have my center located just below my TV. It's a tube TV. It's to large and heavy (30lbs) to be place on top of the TV.

I have never heard anyone mention that it's not a good idea to have your center timbre match your mains. I won't agrue that is't not a good idea.. but I have trouble accepting it as a good thing.

To obtain a seemless panning of the front soundstage, you really do need to timbre match all three front speaker. Level wise, yes you can set them all to the proper levels.. but mis-matched center and fronts.. and you'll notice a definate out of sync front soundstage.

In case anyone was wondering, I have returned the 990 at the end of the 4 week audition period. I have very regretfully returned it, because the 990 truly sounds phenominal for the price. However, the bass management issues and lack of timely software updates (especially bug fixes) led me to believe that should look elsewhere. I'm now looking into a used Anthem. I doubt that there will be an improvement in sound quality, but I'm assuming that the configuration flexibility is worth the extra money - even for a used one. What will be really interesting, is to find out that the soon-to-be release s/w patch fixes the double bass bug and adds major bass management capability as well as additional memory settings for different inputs/digital streams. My Denon 3805 is a great example of well executed usability and bass management. Who knows... I may decide to go back to the 990 after the patch is finally released. Assuming that Outlaw will take me back!

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I've noticed it too. i can't say why that happens, but i have noticed a decrease in volume on bypass.

I have also noticed the rather large change in gain levels when switching between upsample and bypass.

Cheers,

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I just checked my 990 with a meter and did get a 6 to 8db drop when switched to Bypass from Upsample. Odd.
Still love the 990 though!

I've tested my 990 with a SPL meter and I do not see or hear a change in volume when I switch between Bypass and Upsample. I am playing a test CD with pink noise and the volume level is the same no mater what. I'm using a SPL meter because I don't trust my ears and it reads the same no mater what. I tested this with both analog and digital inputs and all reads the same. Why don't I see/hear this when others clearly do? My main speakers are set to large and the sub is set for L/R+Sub.

TommyBoy,

I suggest you return your unit, unless you figure out how to change your volume in an efficient manner.

Why do you switch from bypass to upsample while you are listening, especially in the middle of the nite? I use bypass with an analog input, and have no reason to switch to upsample.

Dave

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Daryl,
Thanks for re-checking the Bypass/Upsample levels with a meter. Since somebody else found different levels with their meter: Could you check the levels with the speakers set to anything but Large and L/R? Like LFE only. So we can see what the levels are without the double bass.
thanks.

Actually those that know a little more would disagree.
Many of us have very nice CD players and external DACs where it makes sense to use analog outputs into the 990 using bypass. Yes this "bypasses" the 990 processor but that is exactly what you would want to do. This way you would avoid any extra A/D-D/A conversions in the 990 effectively using it as a PreAmp only.

I'll check again tonight with different settings. I am not getting double bass with the the mains set to large and sub set to L/R+sub. The only time I get double bass is when the sub is set to None.

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I could not duplicate the problem TommyBoy and others are having with the difference in volume between Bypass and Upsample. It was always identical. I used both pink noise from a test CD and music. I couldn't hear or see a difference on the meter. I tried all combinations I could think of. I tried:

Mains Sub
Large None
Large LFE Only
Large L/R+Sub
Small Yes

You have to remember that Bypass mode will not send anything to the sub via the sub out on the 990 and Upsample will. This could result in more volume when in Upsample mode. A meter would detect this as more volume but you should be able to tell by ear that there is more bass.

TommyBoy,

I use bypass mode for my CD player (non-SACD, Cal Audio Labs))because I don't want any processing by the 990. That's what bypass mode is for. Why are you using it?

My point is you should return your unit, because you are not happy with it. Life is too short for bad tone!

The 990 has a few quirks that I deal with. The sound for my HT is superlative, when properly set-up.

dave

TommyBoy - It almost seems like you are confusing CD playback with DVD playback. At least you keep referring to decoding two-channel, I guess you could call it decoding but when I hear that term I think more of something like a Dolby or DTS bitream not PCM coming off a redbook CD. You really don't need any fancy processing to play CD's it is just plain ole PCM data.

So yes I really do want to bypass the processor in the 990 for CD playback that is the reason just about all decent Pre/Pros and receivers have a Bypass mode. The 990 even takes bypass a step beyond most processors by offering a digital bypass in addition to the more common analog bypass.

I have done extensive testing between my dedicated two channel DAC, SACD/DVD-A and the 990 DACs with and without upsampling, trust me there is a significant difference between them.

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