I absolutely love my 990/7125 combo. I finally have my HT complete and accessing the menu is driving me crazy. I am using 1 DVI and 1 Component connection from my equipment to my projector. I hooked everything up and after running all the wiring, I found that I couldn't acess the on screen menu with the DVI input because the 990 was set to S-Video from my old setup. I had to literally bring my projector to where my gear rack is and connect a composite cable. Then I had to literally project an image onto a wall to see the menu and setup everything. Luckily my projector didn't get damaged when I had to place the thing next to a sink in the back of my HT. I made sure I hooked up a second DVD player with component video so I could acess the onscreen menu if need be. I tested it out a while ago and it seemed to work fine with the component video. Yesterday, I wanted to tinker with some settings and when I try and acess the onscreen menu with the component, it just cuts to a black screen and my projector no longer gets a video signal from the pre/pro. Now I don't know how to acess the onscreen menu once again.

I feel this is a very very poor design. Not only do I have problems seeing the on-screen menu, but I can't see volume and dolby/dts settings on screen. I have to turn all the way around and look at the face of the actual pre/pro to see what audio system or what the volume is at. Why would they setup a system like this? More and more people are running there components with DVI/HDMI and you can't do anything from the face of the 990. If they weren't going to let you use the on-screen menu using DVI, they should have at least let you acess the menu from the face of it. Can anyone explain why I can't acess my menu using the component video? What should I do?

Thanks.

John:
I had the same complaint. I got a $13 TV with a composite input and I can use it for using Onscreen Menu stuff...

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=313171&pfp=SEARCH

Long time, no see, John! The reason you can't see any OSD on a DVI source is actually related to the way the 990 (and nearly every other receiver or processor with DVI/HDMI switching) handles switching a digital video signal - the signal is a pure pass-through switch, with no manipulation of the signal (and thus no OSD and no video transcoding). It would have been a significant cost increase to attempt to include video conversion from analog to digital, assuming it could have been done at all without either degrading the signal or (worse yet) breaking HDCP compliance. It's unfortunate, but it's also almost completely unavoidable (and Outlaw does make mention of it in the manual - the first spot I found was on page 9, when they first identify the DVI connections and include the statement that "Analog video sources and on-screen menus do not appear on the DVI output.")

As for the component outputs, we have a different set of issues there, but once again we have to take into account the logistics of dealing with very large, complex data streams. The component inputs are designed to support HD resolutions, so it is reasonable to expect 1080i or 720p signals to pass through the switching. There are two common ways to deal with providing on-screen data with signals of this magnitude: do nothing (no on-screen data of any sort), or replace the incoming signal with a blank screen behind the standard menu interface. One approach leaves the user completely deprived of OSD menu data, while the other (which Outlaw used) still gives you access to the main menu. Both allow the processor or receiver to provide HD switching without attempting to superimpose data onto the HD source (and thereby degrading the signal, unless the product includes an array of expensive video processing gear that should be able to overlay the data without harming the picture quality).

The composite and s-video inputs get both the main menu OSD and an optional status OSD "pop-up". This is because they can superimpose data onto these video sources without messing up the picture quality. Because of the way the video switching signal path works, those sources retain the OSD overlays (both main menu and pop-up) when transcoded to component video output.

What I would recommend (and what I do with my 990) is to run both a DVI/HDMI cable (whichever your display needs) and a component cable from the 990 to the display. This will allow you to switch to the component input and get access to the main menu (you'll need to switch to a video input that uses a composite, s-video, or component video input - if the active source uses a DVI input, the component output will be inactive).

Thanks guys. Gonk, I have a second dvd player hooked up to the video 2 with Component video. I put the pre/pro on video 1 and put the dvd player on. I put my projector on component and I get a picture from the second dvd player. I press the menu button and the screen goes blank. Why is it doing that now?

Does the component input you're using support 480i input? The 990's menu screen is generated at 480i, but your DVD player is probably a progressive scan unit that typically outputs 480p.

It worked at some point. Maybe if I change the settings of my dvd player it will work. Thanks for the help once again my friend. I couldn't figure it out.

O.K. now I'm loosing my mind! I'm so frustrated with this thing.

Gonk, I switched to 480i on my dvd player. I press the menu button on my outlaw and the menu goes on for a split second then the picture goes totally black. I hooked up the component to my oppo and the same thing happens. I can't put the oppo on 480i though. What is the deal with this friqquin thing!!!

How is it that my sub $200.00 oppo dvd player can display an on screen menu on DVI, or component video and my Outlaw audio pre/pro that is the brains of my entire system can't? I would have happily paid and extra few bucks to have this feature. Instead, I can't properly set up my equimpent without unhooking my projector, attaching a cheesy S-video or composite cable and awkwardly projecting an image on a wall. I'm sorry, this is rediculous!

The worst part is that every time I had a problem with my system, nobody from outlaw is available to take a call and when left a message they didn't call back. I am shocked that they are being this way after all I heard about there customer service.

I spoke to Scott earlier this week, and I understand that Steve's taking a couple days off - that means there a little short-handed for a few days. It happens to the best of folks, but I'm sure they'll get back to you soon.

Let's try a couple things, just for the sake of my curiousity. We know that the menu is appearing, but moments after it appears the screen goes black. We know that this happens with component video inputs getting either 480p (the original case where the problem occurred) or 480i (the second test with the progressive scan player and the test with the Oppo - the Oppo is only capable of 480i over component). We also know that the menu worked through composite connection directly to the projector. Since you get a brief glimpse of the menu, it is doubtful that the problem is a lack of 480i support at your projector, but a more definitive test would be to try to play a disc using either DVD player with the component video connection and the player set to 480i. (The Oppo might be the easy way to go here - if you can see the movie when played through the Oppo's component output, then the projector's component input supports 480i and we can scratch that problem off the list.) Once that's off the list, we can try some other things. First, switch to an unused video input (video 5, for example). This should give you no video because there's no source there to generate a video signal. Now try to bring up the menu and see what happens. An alternate approach would be to connect something to a composite input on the 990 (digital camera, DVD player, VCR, game console, whatever) and try that through the component output; if it works, try pulling up the menu and see what happens then. I realize all of this can get a bit tedious, but you're running into a situation that I can't yet explain and I suspect there's something we're missing.

Comparing the Oppo and the 990 is not at all an apples to apples case. The Oppo can display data on screen over DVI because it is a video player and nothing else - the majority of the Oppo's $200 cost is centered around the DVI output, with a bare minimum spent on the analog sections (hence the inability to get even 480p out of the component outputs and the Oppo's generally lackluster reputation for analog audio output). The Oppo has no audio or video switching, minimal bass management for the 5.1 analog output, a very rudimentary analog audio section, a massively smaller power supply and chassis, auto speaker setup, and a few other things left off that the 990 includes. As I said before, the reason that the 990 can't add any video data to the DVI outputs is clear: doing so would have required them to add hardware specifically to generate a video signal in the digital domain that could be passed to the DVI output. It would have been more than a few dollars (I'd guess we'd be looking at nearly a $100 increase or more, but that's just my SWAG), and the ability to get to the menus through every other video output presumably was considered sufficient reason not to add such a large cost increase to the unit. It's unfortunate, but it is also a design decision that I believe can be readily justified.

I imagine there are some HDCP issues at work here as well. You can only play with the DVI signal so much before introducing HDCP handshaking problems between the source and the display.

I have an infocus X1 and it can't show 480i over component video so I suffer the same issue as you. In my case, its the X1's fault, but I am not sure what is causing your problem if you projector allows 480i over component video. It would be nice if the hopefully upcoming update allows for a menu on the 990's lcd display.

Gonk, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly and take the time to understand my problem.

I was hoping my problem was something that others have experienced so I would be able to tell what the problem is. At this point it might be worth it to do the same thing as AndrewS and use a small T.V. My biggest fear right now is that there is a problem with my 990.

I will try and do what Gonk reccomended. If I connect to video 4 or 5, will that be set for Component, S-Video, etc? If I connect an S-vieo or composite video cable from the DVD player to video 4 or 5, will that work?

Thanks again boyz!!!

Video 4 and 5 will default to either s-video or composite (I'm not sure which), so connecting a DVD player that way would work.

I tried it. The menu won't even click over. The face of the 990 says "Analog." I used a composite video. No good. I don't know why the menu doesn't work. You can tell when it clicks over because you can hear it. My parents have a small T.V. I will try using that.

Analog refers to the audio. What did it do when youu tried a DVD in the Oppo via component video? Could you watch the DVD?

Yes I could watch the dvd on the oppo. I think there is something wrong here. I'm starting to wish I would have gotten a different pre/pro. I went and got a small black and white tv with a composite input. I hooked it up to video 4 then video 5. Now I can't even turn on the menu at all. No matter what input I have the 990 on, the menu doesn't click over at all. Another thing that drives me crazy is that when I have the 990 set to certain inputs I can't switch to another via remote, or the face. I had the 990 set to video 4 trying to get the osd working and I couldn't switch it back to TV for some reason. This is not how I like to spend my saturdays.

I just tried to hook up my Satallite box via component and got no picture unlike the oppo. In doing so I scratched up my audio rack to add insult to injury.

I'm so fed up with this thing I'm thinking of getting rid of it. I love the sound of it but outlaw should have put more time into getting rid of the bugs before releasing it. If the osd was this much of a pain, you should have been able to acces it from the face of the unit. Now I have a small black and white tv and I still can't get it to work. Did anyone say "Gee how are these people going to set up there equipment if they use the digital connections?" Obviously not. Now, I'm having all kinds of problems. When using some inputs, I can't even turn the menu on. Thanks Outlaw. Another great design. I would gladly pay another $100-$200 bucks to have thing work correctly than to drive myself crazy trying to setup equipment and not being able to do so.

John, I honestly have not had any of the sort of problems you are having with the OSD - and aside from folks whose displays won't accept 480i over component I haven't seen others having problems either. I know you've been playing telephone tag with Outlaw, and I think that the best bet is to talk with them on Monday - there's either something that you and I have been missing in our exchanges, or there's a flaw in your unit.

Hooking your TV up to video 4 isn't going to yield a picture on your TV. You need to hook your TV up to a video output on the pre/pro, not a video input. Try the monitor out composite connection....


later,
simp

Thanks Sraber. I don't know why exactly, but when I unhooked the video 4 input and only had the composite output hooked up to the T.V. I finally get the OSD to work. The best part is that it works no matter what I'm watching I noticed. I have everything hooked exactly as before but I hooked up the small T.V. to the composite output on the 990 and it works fine. I'm not sure why it wasn't working when I hooked something up to the video4 input and had it the same way. Bottom line, it works.

I definately let my frustration get the better of me. I put in my War of the Worlds special edition and watched it in DTS for a while and once again, I'm in love with the Outlaw. All is once again right in my HT. Thanks for all the help Gonk.

Glad to hear that you got it working... Enjoy!


later,
simp

Ah, glad to hear you've got peace once again in the theater.

I watched Revenge of the Sith tonight and it was awesome!!! Then I got to see the HBO fight in HD. Everyone is very very impressed with my system. The little T.V. fits perfectly in my gear cabinet on a shelf over the 7125. There are doors that cover the amp and T.V. so you don't even see it unless you open the doors. My neighbor thought it was so cool that the T.V. was there for the OSD. He thought it gave it a more professional feel. It worked out pretty good. Now I can acess the menu no matter what I'm watching.

Hi,

I am new here. I just got my 990 pre about a week ago. I too am having a similar problem with the OSD and a component video from my Pioneer DVD player to the 990 to the HDTV.

It wigs out for a split second, then it appears on screen with the black background. IS this normal? It kind of bugs me that i don't have OSD overlaid on the DVD source.. for volume either.

It works fine for my Dish Network hooked up via S-VHS. The OSD is overlaid on the screen.

The "wigging out" is the 990 replacing the incoming signal with a black screen. This is due to the fact that it is very difficult to superimpose data like OSD menus on top of component video inputs (especially when they are 480p, like your DVD player, or higher, like the 720p or 1080i of HD sources). Adding data to the signal (such as superimposing the menu over the source or having the "pop-up" data like volume appear over the source) would risk degrading the image. The 990's approach is pretty much standard for receivers and processors, even when you move far up above the 990 in price.

The Dish Network box is connected via s-video, which is a much less complex signal to manipulate. The simpler signal can get data overlayed without degrading the picture quality, and it is transcoded to component after the data is added.

that makes sense.. thanks for taking the time to explain it. If that's the only thing I don't like about the 990, then that's a pretty minor inconvience for a really good pre amp.

Glad I could help. As complex as surround processors are these days, we all end up with questions - that's why forums like this one are so handy.

This is my biggest dissapointment with the 990, you have to use the OSD for almost everything besides source switching...truly a pain if you use DVI (which was the reason I bought the 990). My Sunfire Theater Grand 3 is 100% configurable via the front panel 7-digit bar-segment LED display (thats right, technically a far inferior display to the 990s). There is no reason that the 990 cannot do the same, I doubt the software would even require much work - just mirror (a close approximation at least) the settings on the current line of the OSD onto the front panel display. And design the menus so they are intuitive & hierarchical like those on the Sunfire.

To see what I mean, just check out the Sunfire manual, page 31:
http://www.sunfire.com/pdf/Theater%20Grand%20IV%20Manual.pdf

Rob

i have heard of some people hooking up a second small TV just so that they can access the 990 display when using DVI or componenet video. might be the answer to your problem. just a thought.

I am using this as OSD...
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=313171&pfp=cat3

Hey Sunny,

How does the 990 sound with the Swan Divas? I have 6.1's 4.1's, and C3 center..990 will be here Thurs..
thanks Vince

Vince - It is out of this world for me! My wife came back from after a week (visiting parents) yesterday and I put on her favorite CD and she was pleasantly surprised. She actually played few other CDs and forgave (I think) me for spending money on the speakers without consulting her first… She was away and Newegg had couple in stock and I had to jump on the deal. They waved shipping on one of the speakers.

Swans are transparent with good imaging and soundstage. This is obviously my opinion of the Swan and 990 combo. I have my 990 set to upsample for music.

I know I will enjoy the 990/Swan combination for few years.

Sunny- Thanks for the input...I've had the divas for 4 years, sound just as good today as they did 4 years ago when I bought them!! With the 990 it should be a pretty impressive combo....

Vince