I recently purchased a 7.1 system from Axiom Audio (Epic 80-500 w/ 2 sets of QS8 surrounds), and now I need to buy the electronics to run it. I've been following the Outlaw products for quite a few years now and up until now have been intending to buy the 990/7700 combo. However, I just found that I'm able to buy the Emotiva DMC-1 and MPS-1 7-Channel Amp Combo for about $225 less than the Outlaw Combo (delivered). The Emotiva set is gently used, whereas the Outlaw set would be new. What would you do if given this choice?

I have never auditioned Emotiva gear, but would like to point out that the 990 has 5 year transferable warranty and great customer service I have ever come across. Plus, 30 eval does not hurt.

Check and see if the Emotiva has fans to cool the amp. Outlaw does not, and fans make noise...

I'd find out if the Emotiva warranty is transferrable. The DMC-1 is a good processor (based on the Sunfire design), but the 990 is also an excellent performer that offers a number of features the DMC-1 lacks (DVI switching, quadruple crossover as compared to the DMC-1's two crossovers, headphone jack, USB port, auto-calibration).

The MPS-1 does have fans on each amp channel. I don't know how they are controlled, however.

Having amp fans can be tolerable in a pure theater situation since the ambient "noise" level is usually high enough to mask the sound. If you use the equipment for audio-only use where you'll be listening to anything other than speed metal or dance music, you'll notice the fan noise during quiet passages. I'd definitely skip any home amp that had a fan.

Cheers,

Thanks guys. These are all really good points, especially about the fans. I had an earlier 3000 series Denon receiver (3300 maybe?) that used to drive me nuts with the fan noise.

I saw the Emotivas won a product of the year award at Audioholics, so that has piqued my interest. I believe their amp is a Class H design, and I really don't know much about that. Also, they seem to charge much more for their processor and less for the amp, whereas Outlaw is somewhat the opposite. Needless to say, I'm torn between the two choices.

I've got your exact speaker setup
Axiom...
M80Ti
VP150
QS8
plus...dual SVS PCi 20-39

And I just got my Outlaw 990. I can't tell you how it compares to the Emotivas, but I can say that the center and surround channels on the 990 are MUCH clearer and enveloping than my B&K Ref 31. I haven't A/B compared the B&K and Outlaw yet but I know I always had problems with the center channel on the B&K and used to have to run it hot (+3-5dB). Now with the 990 I run it equal to the mains and the dialog is crisp and clear.

The Axioms seem to be a fantastic match with the Outlaw 990.

tmoyak, I chose the 990 over any competition because I could still play my vinyl record collection with it, and with very good sound indeed. Of course that may not be a factor for you.

Even without records, the fact that its stereo performance is excellent may be worth considering.

Best wishes whatever you choose.

I second psypof1's remarks about the 990 and vinyl. I have my turntable setup through the 990 and am really impressed with the sound. In fact, it sounds better than my previous audio only setup (B&K amp, CJ Sonographe preamp).

I currently own the 990 and the Emotiva MPS-1 combo . I sit 12-33 feet from amp and never hear any fan noise . Fan noise is a non issue in my opinion . The amp drives my Rockets to any level desired with great clarity with ease .

The Emp pre/pro is an incedible performer as well . It also will drive your vinyl collection . I have owned the 990 for just a short time so I don't want to compare the two just yet . But I am very impressed with the performance of the 990 so far .

I just got a 990/7500 combo and I love it. I will be writing a review soon but I want to take the time to do it justice. I personaly don't like Sunfire processors that the DMP-1 is based on, and most people I know that have had them either had problems or returned them. If you don't think they are full of bugs I would suggest looking through all the firmware fixes on the Sunfire site, also go to audiogon and look at how many sufire processors are constantly up for sale, more then any other processor on the market. I personaly wouldn't buy anything built on a sunfire core like the DMP-1. I haven't heard the DMP-1 so I can't comment on the sound, but if you look at Gonk's Processor spread sheet you will see that the 990 and DMP-1 are pretty equal as far as features with the 990 having some the DMP-1 doesn't. I just don't have any faith in the Sunfire core engineering personaly. I would also take audioholics with a grain of salt, particulary when they gave the Sunfire processor one of the worst reviews ever, and the DMP-1 a good review, without retracting or upgrading the Sunfire review so something isn't right there.

With all due respect to DJ I would also never buy an amp that had a fan on every channel. Not because of the noise factor but because being an engineer I know what is going to fail first in a design like that. Wait 2 more years and see what happens to that MPS-1 amp, good thing it has a warrenty, because you will have channels burning and failing. Just my 2 cents.

I'm a big fan of the Rocket and Onix speakers and I feel that they are some of the best speakers regardless of price and they know their speakers. However they are also the new guy on the block when it comes to electronics (about 1 year) and I personaly feel they made some pretty poor design decisions for their electronics.

I wish you the best of luck in what ever decision you make.

Merlin

Fellas, I really appreciate your honest answers. You are really giving me some good thoughts to work from. Thank you.

drunkonjack, what amp are you using with the 990? Is it the Emotiva?

I intend the setup to be used equally for music and theater. Initially, it was primarily for theater, but the sound is utterly amazing right now while only running the M80ti pair! And I'm only using an old Denon AVR-900 (60wpc @ 8 Ohms) into the 4 Ohm speakers. I can't wait to upgrade.

Thanks again everyoen for all the great input.

Tom

On a side note, have any of you heard of any new (and worthy) digital amps out or on the horizon? I love what Axiom has done with their proprietary amp for the ep500 sub (digital w/ an analog power supply), and I believe they aren't too far away from releasing a multichannel model. I've also read a lot of rave reviews of the nuforce amplifiers. I guess what I'm getting at is I have a sneaking suspicion that the industry may be changing towards digital hybrid amps, and I'm getting in just a tad early. Ever have that feeling?

I thought the same thing 2 years ago about the industry going towards digital amps but nothing really solid has materlized in my opinion. In fact I replaced a Sony ES5000 receiver with the 990/7500 combo and the Sony had a 170w digital amp. The sound isn't even close. There has been a lot of talk and some products but so far nothing has beaten a solid state amp in my opinion. I think a good digital amp is still a few years out, but hey I could be wrong.

Merlin

Yes , I'm using the Emoyiva Big Dog amp with the 990 . And things sound great !

I still need to play around with the 990 a bit . It just has been hard to find time lately . But when I do find a little time I seem to be throwing in a movie or some music . It is sounding pretty darn good right out of the box . All I have done so far is run a auto set up with the suplied mic . I have yet to get the meter out and see how acurate it is.

But I'm enjoying it ! Maybe I can tool around with it right now

I think that digital amps will eventually achieve some pretty significant market share. (Folks like D2Audio are developing some intriguing products, although in most cases it's just the amp module for incorporation into other products.) Not surprisingly, they're starting out primarily in receivers (where the reduced heat generation is a great help since there's not room for the massive heat sinks employed by separate power amps) - Panasonic's had some really good luck with digital amps in their receiver line. Traditional solid state amps will probably be the mainstay of separate amps for a while yet, though.

drunkonjack, how do the two processors stack up with regards to ease of use? I really want my wife to not be too intimidated with the setup, especially since she was nice enough to let me put 8 speakers in our living room

Merlin and gonk, thanks for your thoughts on digital amps. I'm so intrigued with the Nuforce amplifiers. All of the reviews I've read make them out to sound nothing short of revolutionary, and many are comparing them to models that I'll never be able to afford. Unfortunately, I can't swing the cost for the Nuforce amps either. I have considered getting two of them to go along with a 7500, but that is still a drastic expense.

Also, I've recommended those Panasonic receivers to some friends that are looking at getting their first (and very inexpensive) home theater setups (based upon their reviews and cost). I'm anxious to hear them myself when the first order comes in.

Thanks again,

Tom

Tom while I can't comment on the setup of DMP-1 the 990 is a very simple setup. However I think a better question would be is how do I make the home theater easy for my wife to use?

That is where a universal remote comes in, I personaly use a Harmony 880 so all my wife has to do is push the watch DVD button and insert a DVD or push the Watch TV button and she can watch cable. The simpler you keep it for them the more they will enjoy your hobby with you.

Merlin

Actually it is DMC-1 And I would have to give the nod to the DMC-1 for ease of set up . But keep in mind the 990 is easy to set up also .

With the hard buttons on the front panel of the DMC-1 it is also easier to find the source you want to watch or listen to . This I find makes ease of use useful to some that find remotes to busy to use.

But a good remote makes thing very easy............like the 880 from Harmony .

With all that free space on the front of the 990 , That is one thing I wish it had was the individual buttons for the input you desire to use.

The Emotiva stuff looks cool, and having fans doesn't bother me, since they are thermostatically servo controlled and seldom come on at all.

The modular design is cool too. Too bad they're sorta spendy for being a no-name outfit.

Firmware fix count isn't a good measure of software quality. Not saying the Sunfire is good or bad, just pointing out that this isn't a good metric.

Both are apparently easy to set up, but in any comparison it is also important to note that the DMC-1 is $2,495 and the 990 is $1,099. That makes a considerable difference!

Perhaps AV123's big amp is "sorta spendy" for what it is, but that's a decision you have to make. However, I don't think it is fair to call them a "no-name outfit". A traditionalist might say that BOTH AV123 and the Outlaws are "no-name", but those in the know would correctly response that each has built a solid reputation for high-value/high-performance products over the past few years, AV123 perhaps more for speakers and Outlaw for electronics.

I will agree that the number of bugs in a firmware isn't a good metric. However what I meant was the type of bugs that need to be fixed can be very revealing of how good the quality is on a processor. If you went back and looked at the type of bugs that needed to be fixed for instance on the Sunfire Theater Grand III processor you would see that there was very poor quality control. Which is probaby why Audioholics gave them one of the worst reviews ever.

Also I'm betting that even thermostatically servo controlled fans in a seven channel configuration watching a DVD are going to be on a lot just by the shear heat that is going being generated by the modular design playing at a reasonable listening level for a HT. I think the modular design is a good idea if they had used heat sinks, but in my personal opinion they ruined it with fans, which is why I would never buy that amp. But that is just my opinion.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy speakers from AV123 but I don't plan on buying any electronics from them in the near future because they are still what I would call in beta mode. That is why I bought the 990/7500 combo here since Outlaw has been making processors and amps since 1998. Both are great companies with good buisness models but each has it's speciality and experiance in particular areas which needs to be taken into consideration.

Merlin

It's hard to say, but I do know that class H amps tend to run pretty cool, and if you look each module does have pretty beefy heatsinks, just that they're internal, and fan assisted.



Listing bugs addressed in updates is a two edged sword, I wouldn't judge too harshly unless known bugs weren't addressed in a timely manner.

Thanks for the Harmony remote tip. I will definitely get one of those. They seem to have outstanding reviews.

drunkonjack, are you running two complete setups? Did you get the Emotiva Big Dog set then decide to try out the 990 for some reason? Just curious...

charlie and PodBoy, I know you guys mentioned the cost difference. In my original post I was basically asking what everyone would do if they could have either the Outlaw pair or the Emotiva pair at relatively the same cost. I don't listen to vinyl, nor do I use headphones. Also, I tend to take more risks, so buying used (from a good source) certainly doesn't bother me. Any thoughts?

Basically, I'm trying to put together the biggest bang for the buck setup that I can (well, I'm sure that's what most all of us are doing, right?!). For now, this looks like the final piece to the puzzle (and the last one that my wife has given the green light to), so I just want to make the most informed decision before spending that kind of cash... especially w/o comparing them side by side.

Thanks,

Tom

Interesting picture if I'm not mistaken those are retrofited mono blocks which would explain the need for a fan. Trying to fit 7 mono blocks into a chassis would create some serious heat issues and decrease the life expectency of the amp. It would give it great specifications and test results but at what cost? This appears to me to be a pretty poor engineering design and wasn't thought out from the ground up. Like I said before in my opinion they made some bad design decisions and I consider their electornics as beta products which is why I bought the 990/7500 combo and not the big dogs.

But everyone needs to make their own decisions and choices. Personly I prefer to go with companies that have the most experiance in particular areas. I personaly voted for Outlaw based on all the available data, others will vote differetly. I wish everyone the best of luck and enjoyment in their decisions. After all we are all addicts and enjoy the same hobby!

Merlin

Well, the modules come in one and two channel versions, this seems to be a one channel module, so yeah, by definition it's a mono-block. It's not clear to me how it's "retrofitted", nor is it clear how it would generate more heat than a similar non-modular design.

A lot of high end designs boast about being "multi-monoblock" designs, and while I never thought that was an advantage, I don't see how taking that same concept and putting each channel on a "module" changes things so much either.

I like Outlaw too, but come on .....

EDITED: Typos

Tmoyak , I am running Two HT's here but the other is being powered by a Denon Reciever . The main Ht is being powered by the MPS-1 7 channel amp and the 990 .

At one time I was running the DMC-1 And MPS-1 Emotiva to power my Ht . But I had plans to go with a 2 Channel system in another room and was going to downgrade a bit with the main HT . So I sold the Emotiva stuff to help fund the 2 channel system . But some things changed here where the room was needed for something , So again plans were changed. I repurchased the Emo MPS-1 amp and decided to try the 990 .

The MPS-1 is far from a hot running amp . It is by far one of the coolest running amps I have owned . My old Parasounf HCA-3500 , Now that was a hot running amp The Emotiva gear are serious performers , no dought about it .

I would have to say that the 990 has got to be the best price per performance piece of gearI have come across in a great long time .

Emotiva , being no name gear..........please :rolleyes:

No, really. In the same way that "Scion" would be a no name car company if it wasn't just a Toyota badge. It's not that they're bad, actually they seem quite good, but where is the track record associated withthe name "Emotiva"? What sort of gear did they make in the year 2000? 1990? 2002?

Obviously they "have a name", but they're too young to have an established track record, which is pretty much the definition of "no name".

Outlaw is young too, but they have been around a bit longer and are working very hard to "make a name". I think they're succeeding in doing so.

Also, thanks for the first hand experience with the Emotiva amp. Was it fully populated with the mono modules? How often did the fans come on? What did it take to get it hot? What sort of loads were hooked to it most of the time?

While modular plug in features for a pre/pro are not attractive to me, modular channels like this are pretty nifty.


EDIT:


PS - the Emotiva gear is pretty.

drunkonjack, thanks for the details. I appreciate it.

I used to have two full home theaters set up, both using Denon receivers with separate amps for the subs (a hafler 110x2, a soundstream 200x2, and an adcom 200x2). The speakers were Energy in one and Wharfedale in the other. I made the custom subs (one room with dual ported 15" that looked like end tables w/ smoked bronze glass tops, the other w/ a quad 12" sub box). I lost all of that stuff in a fire 17 mos. ago. So, now that I'm back on my feet I'm putting together my "dream" system. I'm certain that either processor/amplifier combo will greatly outperform my older stuff. I just like to do my due diligence before making big purchases. I tend to keep my stuff forever after I buy it

Tom

I hope the DIY subs did'nt cause the fire

Seriously , I hope no one was hurt in the fire . All the gear and everything else in the house can be replaced .

Hope you find all the info you need to put together something you and your family will enjoy for many years .

You are certainly looking in the right places for the gear

drunkonjack, no, the subs weren't to blame (but I'm not sure how the old picture window up front ever withstood them! Heavy bass scenes would always have a "(not-so-)nice" glass rumble as well. I probably would have shoved a nice piece of dynamat right in the middle if my wife would have let me.

It was the dehumidifier in the basement. Lucky for my wife, the baby we didn't yet know we were expecting, and I, we were at a golf tournament. No so lucky for the poor cats that were home.

Thanks for the kind words. With the baby and two new cats, the five of us are in our new home, and I'm tickled to be setting up the system I wanted to do a long time ago.

Thanks again,

Tom