Hi all,

This week my Kenwood KC-X1 THX Ultra pre/proc died. Yeah, it was a pretty depressing moment as the unit has held up well for over 10 years.

Does give me the opportunity to finally move up to the digital surround formats and all the latest goodness.

After my experiences with the THX certification process (if they can make Kenwood stuff sound this good, they can make anything sound good), I'm pretty much stuck on getting an Ultra2 piece. Problem is, my KC-X1 originally sold for around $1200, but I paid like $600 for it while in the Air Force. Now there are no THX cert pre/procs for less than $2000 and the one item that is $2000 is the Integra DTC-9.4, which could use some more component ins Dolby IIx and HDMI switching. And of course, the price jumps up from there, although the Anthem AVM-30 can be had for the relatively paltry sum of $3000 (ha ha).

Anyhow, I'm intrigued by the 990, but wondering if I will miss all of the THX cert goodness (re-eq, decorelation, quality control and crossovers).

I've read some of the threads regarding comparisons of the 990 to the AVM-30 and the Arcam Ultra2 piece, but how does the 990 stack up to the higher end Onkyo or Integra receivers (used as receivers or as pre/procs) or to the Integra Research RDC-7.1?

In a perfect world, I'd buy the RDC-7.1, but as we all know, this world isn't perfect and I don't particularly want to spend over $3000 to replace a piece that cost me $600 10 years ago (inflation hasn't been that bad).

Plus the 30 day money back trial guarantee is really compelling.

So basically, I'm trying to choose between the 990, the Integra DTC-9.4 or the Integra DTR-10.5. As much as I'd like the Arcam Ultra2 piece of the Integra Research RDC-7.1 (which I'd actually prefer over the Arcam for its modularity and upgradability), they are just too much for my blood for probably not much gain.

Anyhow, any advice anyone can give would be much appreciated.

Oh, and before anyone starts arguing about whether or not THX certification makes a difference, they should read http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-1.html

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I've never used a THX Ultra 2 processor or receiver for the reason you mention - cost. The cost premium tied to the Ultra 2 products that I might have considered in place of my Outlaw is significant, on the order of 2x or 3x or more. There would be some other benefits aside from THX, as one would expect from that sort of large jump in price, but for me the benefits offered by those more expensive alternatives weren't enough to justify the added cost.

Even lacking THX Ultra 2, the Model 990 is a very competent processor at a relatively friendly price ($1100 is still not peanuts, but compared to many of the alternatives it's a great value. I'd recommend giving it a try - the opinion in this case that matters most is yours, and the best way to make up your mind is to hear it. I think you may be pleased.

I'm with Gonk on this. You should take stock of your budget and do some listening and see if it matters to YOU. If it does matter, then you'll have to see if any relevant gear fits into your budget.

I personally think paying for the THX sticker is a waste of money. But that's just my opinion.

I'd agree about paying for a sticker as being a waste of money, but that's not what the THX program is about.

It's an end to end quality standard. Every piece that is THX certified has to meet the requirements of the program and as far as I know, it has to meet the manufacturer's published specs as well.

That's not to say that you can't meet or exceed the same quality standard without being in the program, but it sure keeps manufacturers honest.

Having said that, I do acknowledge that submitting pieces for certification is pretty much out of the question for smaller manufacturers like Outlaw, particularly when they are trying to keep costs down.

The standard, however, has made a difference in the home theater industry as companies now have a well designed set of goals to shoot for that aren't based on marketing crap.

At any rate, thanks for the feedback. Most likely I will give the 990 a try for a month and see how it performs.

Oh and my speakers are the Kenwood THX Ultra speaker package (3 LCRs, 2 dipoles and 1 passive sub) that Kenwood offered in 1995.

Excellent speakers in my opinion (particularly for what I paid for them, retail was $3000, I paid around $1500) for both movies and music.

Amplifier is the 6 channel x 100 watt Kenwood THX Ultra amp that was also part of their THX package at the time.

I believe that meeting the standard of quality required for THX is less of an issue today than it was a decade ago - companies like Outlaw, Rotel (whose RSP-1066, 1068, and 1098 lack the THX certification that Wayne's older RSP-985 offered), and numerous others have chosen to build hardware that offers very high build quality and performance without relying on THX to "check their work". It is this aspect of the THX issue that leads many people to write THX off as "just another sticker" - with a little research (a relatively straightforward task with the Internet available as a resource), consumers can find hardware that costs quite a bit less than comparable THX-certified gear and is reasonably comparable in build quality and performance. Credit must of course be given to THX for helping quantify some of the design goals incorporated into all worthwhile modern gear - it's just that you don't necessarily have to buy something with the THX logo on it to get a piece of equipment designed with those goals in mind. The one aspect of THX licensing that you still only get with the THX logo is their specialized surround processing (the software described in parts 2 and 4 of Brian Florian's THX article). As Wayne very accurately summarized, some of those features are also available outside the realm of THX (re-eq being the principal example), although some of course will be missing from the Model 990. Even without those, I still suspect that the Model 990 may prove a good fit for your system.

The THX standards can't be very daunting. My 5.1 computer speakers (Logitech Z-680) are THX certified and can take digital input and support decoding Dolby Digital and DTS. Anyone want to take a guess what sounds better when I compare it to my non-THX home theater system? *snicker*

By the way, the Logitech system is nice for non-audiophile types. The electronics are about the size of a brick, it's cheap, and even my Luddite parents can operate the controls. 8-)

Cheers,

That's another place where I think THX has tripped up - they've diluted the value associated with their name through THX-certified cables (which have sort of disappeared, thankfully), THX-certified computer speaker setups, some THX-certified DVD transfers that were criticized for disappointing video quality (although I haven't heard much about those sorts of slip-ups in recent years), and other marketing (mis-)adventures. Those who support THX are quick to point out that Logitech didn't get Ultra2 or even Select2 certification (I hope), but it still undermines the apparent benefits of higher-end THX certification.

No, the computer audio products are certified under the lesser THX Multimedia certification and while they are quite good for computer use, they aren't at all comparable to good home theater or 2 channel products.

The THX cable cert was there in early 90s, so has been around a while, but was only really wholeheartedly adopted by Monster Cable. Currently, Monster and Liberty Cable are the only companies with THX certified interconnect and speaker wire.

I personally don't see how the Multimedia cert undermines the higher end cert, but I think that it could be argued that Select certainly muddies the water.

The THX certification on the whole probably helps the large mainstream players like Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon and the like that are selling many more pieces than the smaller houses like Outlaw.

The main question being asked, really though, is if THX certification is a must have when shopping for a piece. To which, the answer is plainly no, or I wouldn't even be here in the first place.

It certainly is high on my list of features to look for, but if I can find same or better quality and features in a non-THX piece for less, then I certainly won't turn my nose up at it.

Anyhow, I'm still researching my options and trying to decide what to do, but will let you know what I ultimately decide. A lot of it rides on the kind of deal I might be able to get on an Onkyo or Integra piece. If I can get the Integra DTC-9.4 for less than the Outlaw, I will probably go with it, although I might give the Outlaw a try alongside for good measure.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Then my Logitech system should sound just as good as Wayne's non-ultra2/select2 Rotel RSP-985. Not bad for $300.....and it even comes with the speakers and sub. 8-)

I used to buy everything with THX...and way back when (when there was only ProLogic gear) it did make a big difference, especially in the surrounds. However, now a days, I don't feel there is much of a need for it with PL2X and so forth. It's not even a concern when I buy anymore.

Timbre . Normally I'd stay quiet on typos, but you kept repeating it .... timber is big wood. If timber falls in a forest, it makes a sound.

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to find that your cables lack THX certification. *Snicker*

Guess the answer is "probably not" for now.

Just ordered the 990.

Had to really suck it in to not order the 7700 at the same time (perhaps at some later date).

Thanks for all the input.

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Wayne, hope I'm not screwing up this thread w/a q about buttkicker...I found your long post of a couple of years ago and I'm requesting advice from you (tracked you down to here via google). Anyway, I'm nearing the point of installing mine with their amp. Looking at the big couch centered on my screen I realize it has thick leather covered cushions (don't ask -- I didn't do the decorating, just the equipment!). So the obvious q is where do I put the buttkicker...underneath, but it will have to pass through all that thick cushion. Under the cushion seems out of the question given the size/shape of the kicker. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

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Do you think that level of confusion is on purpose to make sure even an informed buyer has no clue what THX does? I do. Nobody knows WTF it does yet they make you feel like you really should have it. Pretty clever marketing.

What makes you think that the THX certification for wire and cable products was conceived with the custom installer in mind? Any custom installer worth their salt knows how to identify cables and uses techniques other than the THX color coding. In the consumer world, which is where this was REALLY aimed, the THX schema for color coding has been, for the most part, superceded by widespread application of the relevant CEA standard.

Were you there "...in the beginning..." to witness what you are speculating? Have you read the specs?

While THX testing for certification is a precise process, it is no more daunting than the many other certifications a modern audio/video product must have. The process, itself, is not the problem, no more than it is when submitting a product to Dolby, DTS, UL/CSA/SEMKO (etc.), FCC, HDMI, etc.

So THX cables were invented as a way to communicate helpful information for custom installers. I got a sharpie and a box full of wire, I'm going to write "don't forget your wire cutters" on it and charge $5 a foot. Who's in?

The whole THX certification process for cabling is just absurd. It's just a way for Lucas to cash in on the hype surrounding "premium" interconnect and speaker cabling.

But hey, there are folks out there that willingly pay hundreds (or more) dollars for a "premium" IEC power cable and other folks that will pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for relatively short lengths of interconnect and speaker cabling. I suspect if they ever saw the results of scope tests on those "premium" cables vs any competently crafted cable, they would feel a bit foolish...but then again, those are the same kinds of folks that will drone on about "veils being lifted" or "airiness" or equipment sounding "laid back", etc. *chuckle*

Audio reproduction is a science. If you can't reliably and in a repeatable fashion show differences in peformance characteristics of equipment, they probably don't/didn't exist in the first place.

Cheers,

Yep, although I'm sure that there's a provable psychological relationship between what one pays for gear and how good they think their gear sounds.

If it's all pyshcological, then I'm sure a good shrink is going to be a lot cheaper. 8-)

I heard a couple of good ones the other day: "flabbiness" and "honkiness". That cleared things up.

In all fairness, it's not just snobbery involved, all the time. It's fun to make fun of high priced gear here in the land of excellent sound at budget prices, but remember, it's not always about the sound all the time. Off the top of my head:

• Appearance, feel, prestige, heritage, all count for something at some point.
• Ease of use, flexibility, programability, ability to integrate with home automation systems
• Brand loyalties

Those are ALL valid reasons to "pay more" IMO. Heck, just good old fashioned "I like this one better" should be plenty. Where it starts to go wrong is when the guy who buys on preference tries to validate the purchase based on something else. That often results in grasping at straws, honkiness and flabbiness. *snicker*

Yeah, true...if you have more money than some third world countries (don't we all wish), you probably aren't too concerned with value.

And don't forget the significant other saying "I don't like that, buy something that looks nicer" issue.

honkiness?

Like all of us White Boys need to get in touch and accept our honkiness?

And I thought "Chocolatly Midrange" was a good one!

My vote for ultimate snake-oil: Speaker Cable "Lifters" that keep your wire off the carpet!

I think the speaker cables with the batteries is another good snake-oil feature.

Or cables that purport to have "time correcting" windings...or any that say they resolve "skin effect" issues.

My favorite is the horrendously expensive MIT speaker and interconnect cables that have their "mystery electronics" in little boxes at the ends. So people spend a couple grand (yes...thousands) for a pair of MIT Oracle speaker cables to use them as fancy tone controls for their speakers. 8-)

Unfortunately, the cable/interconnect business is chock full of manufacturers who make dubious claims and then spend lots of money throwing ads in the various audio/theater rags. And editors/readers lap it right up....

Cheers,

There really are some crazy marketing gimmick products out there (often with frightening price tags attahched to them)... ZoFo's cable-lifter post made me flash back to this slightly less-than-serious discussion from a year or so ago.

nice flashback gonk.

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Plus I would argue that the requirements and testing needed to gain the THX cert is a lot more daunting than any other home theater certification I'm aware of.

Dolby doesn't require you to meet quality minimums with every piece you make. They don't offer up a complaints number for products or theaters that don't live up to their standards, but THX does.

I mean, if someone wants to talk about shlock, look at all the crap that has ever been put out with Dolby's symbol on it.

About the only thing more daunting than going through the THX cert process is to go through the public opinion process, particularly in this day and age where everyone can blog and have a voice.

An excellent point, and quite fitting for a forum like the saloon. Companies like Outlaw today both thrive and suffer at the hands of Internet communication - they all suffer at times, but its the good ones that build on successes and gracefully adapt to the public stumbles that succeed in a market that they probably could never have found even a toehold in just ten years ago.

Quoting of excerpted portions is completely legal as fair use unless you're actually under an NDA. Indeed, if ANY quoting or public performance was copyright infringement, why would we need NDAs?

And for the record, I strongly suspect the specs THX wires are required to meet are pretty easy to hit with any reasonable construction - which sort of makes that whole "why use THX cables" point.

I highly doubt THX has a QA person on site white glove testing each unit as it rolls off the line either. In the end a good manufacturer has to earn customers trust by making good product, THX, XYZ, or not. Has THX EVER forced anyone to cease using the logo due to QA issues? I strongly doubt it.

Yes, they have actually. I do believe that Technics had to remove cert from a receiver back in the day because shipped units weren't meeting specs.

And while THX may not have someone onsite, as far as I know, you can't get a unit certified unless you have a comprehensive QA process in place for the unit.

But hey, if you don't believe the enterprise delivers on their intended goals of making it possible for everyone to experience in their homes or theaters what the creators of the film intended by matching as closely as possible the performance of the end user systems (either home or theater) with that which the film creators experienced in the studio, then you certainly don't have to buy their products.

I, on the other hand, have seen where it does work and do believe that it is a worthwhile enterprise and will continue to favor THX certified products where I think it makes sense.

Of course, I cannot say that I am a die-hard, blue in the face, backer of the program as I did just order an Outlaw 990 preamp a few days ago...which we all know is NOT a THX certified product.

All things being equal, however, I would buy a THX product over a non-THX product every time...of course as well know, things are almost never equal.

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Hey Bloggingitguy,
To tug on software updates and hopes.... check out the very upper top left of your 990 when it arrives ( btw - congrats on your new purchase. it is a cool peice of equipment)....
The display has the capability of lighting up "THX" symbol.
I took a double take when i saw it and dove in the manual for some hidden paragraphy ... but to no avail.

And to further the flame, i found this on Cirrus Logic's web site: This is under the CS49400 digital signal processor (DSP) used in the 990.
Quote:

"The CS49400 features a comprehensive audio framework including customizable programming and certified software applications that enable manufacturers to quickly and cost effectively design solutions that meet worldwide compatibility standards and provide consumers with an enhanced audio experience. Included in the framework’s certified application portfolio are state-of-the-art audio decoders and sound enhancement programs, such as DTS 96/24, Dolby Digital™, AAC, and THX™."

You are a software upgrade away from enjoying THX products from the 990.

BTW, thanks for the links to THX. good stuff.

Actually, it's likely that there's also some hardware specs and required testing missing from the equation. This unit's "platform" is used by several other brands, so the option is in the display in case any of them decide to go the certification route. Of course, the hypothetical difference from going that way with the 990 could keep this thread going on and on...

Maybe Outlaw can offer THX certification as a $1K option on the 990 and turn on the little THX display.

Exactly, but you need a cart/plow/disc so the horse can pull it. Again, the chip set is capable of performing THX correlations/corrections. As they say ….. Its all about the chips.
If Outlaw wanted to go down that path, yes the hardware would have to be on level of the required specifications.

Does the Sherwood variant of the 990 claim THX certification?

No, it doesn't, although Etronics clearly hadn't eliminated it as a possibility when they laid out the front panel display.

Historically they have to put that boilerplate in to claim ownership. It in no way voids your right to fair use. But this isn't the thread to discuss copyright law.

"The 1961 Report of the Register of C...ions; ...."

Click to read more.

I would be enormously shocked if the 990 hardware wasn't able to pass THX certification. I strongly suspect that what we'd get for our $$$ is a few more processing options, a THX light and some extra silk-screening.

And decorellation...don't forget the decorellation.

But yeah, if a product is already quality and known by the public at large to be so, THX cert won't provide much other than the things you just mentioned.

And of course, I highly doubt Outlaw could continue to offer the 990 at the current price point if they got it THX certified.

Hehe. I think that's under "a few more processing options" ....

The real issue is, in order for a manufacturer to make a good business case for THX certification, it almost certainly has to be done to at least one of each different kind of component they make (amp, DVD, etc). THX adherents are going to want THX everything, so no sense in losing those incremental sales to another brand that does make them - and those THX fans out there would probably agree that they'd be more likely to buy a THX certified 990 in the first place if Outlaw offered other THX certified equipment (opinions, folks?).

Good question Ritz ... so ...
I asked Sherwood a question requarding THX and the P-965 and the answer: "We have no plans to be part of THX. However, our cinema EQ circuit is very close to THX's Re-EQ"

mmmmm.... very close they say. Its in the cards or this case .... the chip set.

Maybe it's the same except the "THX" logo stays off ..... wouldn't be shocked, really.

Yeah, it would probably work a lot more in Outlaw's favor if they had the pre-pro, amp and sub THX certified.

But again, it would negate Outlaw's price advantage as they'd have to charge more for each.

I still think that the 30 day trial speaks louder than THX certification would.

If given the choice between the same product at higher cost with THX or at lower cost without, but with 30 day trial...well it's obvious which one I chose.

Yep. I'd much rather spend the money on equipment than window dressing. The THX logo has zero appeal for me as long as Dolby Digital and DTS are supported.

Speaking of useless logos, one that is close to my heart...HDCD...would be nice. 8-)

Cheers,

I'm pretty sure THX isn't completely useless - you do get a few nifty modes and there is some marketing traction there. I'm just reasonably sure the Outlaws discussed this at length and made a responsible value based choice.

For my $$$ the 990 is in the running.