As an enthusiastic owner of several Turtle Beach Audiotrons (one of which is connected (optically) to my 990), I was just wondering who else is using a DAR with the 990 and in what way. For those of you who may not know, DAR is an ancronym for Digital Audio Receiver; this generally comprises some I/O and networking capability (often wireless) that allows you to send streaming content through an audio system.

For me, I use the 'family room' Audiotron to stream from my PC library (99% of which is wav, not MP3) as well as some of the streaming station feeds. I have two more of these Audiotrons connected (via their analog outs) to otehr systems around the house. I can't tell you how this whole centralized server concept has changed how I see and experience music (read: almost all the time at home now), and I wondered if there are otehrs out there for whom this has revolutionized their music listening experience.

One of my friends recently acquired a Slim Devices Squeezebox and she has incorporated that into her (2.0) system. She loves it.

Anyway...just wondering how many of us Outlaws are using such devices, and in what way, and whether or not it has been a positive or negative experience.

Just wondering...

Mark

I have two Audiotrons. They're nice, but the interface isn't great and it's a pain to have to build a TOC file to load the id3 info every time the unit is hard powered on.

I have since switched to a Roku Soundbridge. The interface is much better. The main drawback, initially, is that the Soundbridge won't stream files from a Windows share. That is relatively easy to get around these days. I have a Buffalo Linkstation I used for the Audiotron and it ends up, since it is linux, that I can run apps on it.

I'm using mt-daapd which is an iTunes server to stream the music to my Soundbridge. It builds a TOC on a little database on the Soundbridge so if either the SB or the Linkstation gets powered off, I can power them back on and get my music back instantly.

The added benefit is that it is MUCH easier to add music to these units since I don't have to run TOCMaker, which can take 30mins - 1hr, every time I want to add a song. I merely add it to the Linkstation and connect to mt-daapd via a web browser and tell it to update its database. It's quick and easy.

The pain with the Squeezebox is that you HAVE to run Slimserver. If you don't mind having your PC on all the time just to stream music, then I suppose it's a toss up between a Soundbridge and Squeezebox - because you have to have either iTunes or Slimserver running for the respective units. I have found it more difficult to run Slimserver on a Linkstation (or Linksys NSLU2) and I like the iTunes interface better anyway. If you fire up your PC or Mac, iTunes can connect to mt-daapd on the Linkstation and you can see your whole library. You can then see any custom playlists that you build on your PC over on the Soundbridge - even though it's streaming music from the Linkstation. It's seamless and works well.

I like the VFD on the Soundbridge better than the Audiotron. It's easier to see and you can change the font size too. Also, the Soundbridge interface lets you search your songs by artist, title, genre, etc extremely easy. There's really no way to do this on the Audiotron. If you want to spend the coin, there is a Soundbridge that is 17" long (M2000) which is really easy to see from a distance. It's about $80 more than the pricy Squeezebox top model. It looks like Roku may not be selling this model anymore but you can still find it around.

Drawbacks? For my setup, the Soundbridge is better than the Audiotron in all ways. If you don't want to run a PC all the time for music or can't find NAS (networked attached storage) that runs an iTunes server, you'd want to stick with the Audiotron because neither the Squeezebox or Soundbridge can stream from a windows share on a NAS or PC. The Soundbridge IS wireless but doesn't have WPA at the moment so you'll have to connect 802.11b. This can be a pain if you have a wireless network that is G-only. The Soundbridge does have SP/DIF and Coax digital outs so you can choose your poison. The Squeezebox probably has better DACs if you're going to hook either one of these units up analog to something. The 990 hopefully has better DACs than the Squeezebox though.

Also, I use high variable bitrate LAME mp3's (--fast extreme or insane). If you use lossless, you may have an easier time with the Squeezebox than the Soundbridge. The Soundbridge can play lossless but I think you have to be running the Slimserver software anyway. Slimserver works with the Soundbridge but isn't officially supported and I don't know how much of the functionality in Slimserver is available with the Soundbridge anyway.

I use a Roku soundbridge, and it is pretty great. We have a Mac setup to run iTunes in a user account that just stays logged in, and it's always up and running. Other users use the Mac don't even notice the iTunes footprint in the other account. Great setup, for music we encode mostly with iTunes and mp3 392kbps vbr. Sounds great!

Also poscasts are really great too, and iTunes snags every new one and downloads it with no intervention. I would never go back to shuffling CDs again.

I use a homebuilt HTPC with a BlueGears Mystique 7.1 sound card. Has digital coax & toslink out -- I've ripped my entire collection to mp3 (variable bitrate). I've done a/b tests with the same disc in my cd player, i cannot tell the difference. Next step is the experiment with lossless (FLAC) and see if i notice a difference in sound quality.

AndrewS: I understand your comment about building the TOC after a power (mains) off. However, were you / are you using Audiostation (the music app that came with it)? I have enabled the 'build Audiotron TOC' option in it (in Audiostation: Options --> Preferences --> Audio Tron: click the radio button that says "Automatically generate table of COntents files for Audiotron on exit").

If this is selected, the TOC will build (and refresh) every time you quit the Audiostation application...or...you can hit 'cancel' if you don;t want it to refresh / build the TOC upon exit.

If you do this, when the audiotron boots from a mains power off, it finds files in blocks of 200 rather than in blocks of 10. I have around 9,500 wav files or so and because Audiostation creates the TOC that the Audiotrons can see, it references them rather than scronging the entire indicated shares.

This also works reallyw ell if you update files from the web browser interface (i.e. going to the appropriate IP) - it uses the TOC (generated by Audiostation) to look for new files, and is a consequence is very fast.

All in all, I would say that by using the TOC option (to generate from Audiostation), the audiotrons take about 1 minute (or less) to find all 9,500+ songs when waking up from a hard boot.

Cool stuff guys...thanks for the posts.

Mark

old_school:

I prefer not to have a computer on every time I want to play music. Also, I've been using my Mac more and more - no Audiostation for that.

Even in blocks of 200, it takes a while to enumerate around 18,000 songs.

I generated my TOCs from TOCmaker - a command line app. I never got a sense of "flow" with the Audiotron like I do with the Soundbridge. It's much easier to add songs and if my Mac is on, I can make really quick custom playlists which show up on the fly on the Soundbridge.

I wouldn't say it's a toss-up. The main differences are that the Squeezebox has a MUCH nicer UI than the SoundBridge does and is capable of working with a lot more formats, while the SoundBridge can work with Microsoft's PlaysForSure DRM (which is used by Napster, Yahoo, and Rhapsody).

(Well, and also that the Squeezebox is a device that makes attempts at being a serious audiophile source, whereas the SoundBridge M1001 can't even pass an unaltered 44.1KHz digital bitstream. And the Squeezebox supports G networks instead of just B ones.)

I bought a SoundBridge to replace my old Squeezebox 1, and hated it intensely. Its UI was basically competent in that it was comparable to the one on my Dell DJ30 MP3 player; but compared to the Squeezebox, it was slow, awkward, and painfully frustrating. I can see how somebody who'd never had a device like this would like the Roku -- it's far better than a CD player -- but if you've used the Squeezebox, it's obvious that the Roku is missing the spit 'n' polish.

"The pain with the Squeezebox is that you HAVE to run Slimserver. If you don't mind having your PC on all the time just to stream music, then I suppose it's a toss up between a Soundbridge and Squeezebox - because you have to have either iTunes or Slimserver running for the respective units. I have found it more difficult to run Slimserver on a Linkstation (or Linksys NSLU2) and I like the iTunes interface better anyway. If you fire up your PC or Mac, iTunes can connect to mt-daapd on the Linkstation and you can see your whole library. You can then see any custom playlists that you build on your PC over on the Soundbridge - even though it's streaming music from the Linkstation. It's seamless and works well."

AndrewS

Andrew

I have a Squeezebox 3 (SB3) and you do not have to have your computer on to access Internet radio though you do have to have it on if you want to stream recorded music from your PC. Slim Devices has it's own server "Squeeze Network" that allows access to over 300 Internet radio station without going through a PC.

I have had the SB3 for about 3 months and love it. I use it over a wireless network and after a few initial problems that Slim Devices fixed it works great. It handles many different types of formats and produces a solid, quality sound through the 990. I would recommend this unit to anyone that wants a DAR.

I think the thing - the bigger thing - in all of this is how these devices have fundamentally changed how we listen to music. For instance, there are days that I hit 'select all' and 'random', then go about my business. It's pretty cool hearing the Squirrel Nut Zippers, then some Sinatra, maybe some Ben Folds Five, some Zappa etc....

Another fave is to load up a particular genre and hit 'random' ...or make playlists and such.

It's funny to think in these terms; I remember purchasing my NAD 517 5-CD changer and thinking how much of a difference that would make in how I listened to CDs.

There are times that I hear a song (or artist) that I have not heard in ages...and that makes me go back to the Audiotron and maybe queue up that entire CD. That would have never happened with a CD changer.

As far as FLAC is concerned, from what I have read (not enough) it is truly lossless but doesn't offer a dramatic reduction in file size (maybe something like 25%). That never mattered to me though (my motto has been if you don't need to compress, then why compress?) as I have written wav from the start. I figured disk drives would just get cheaper and cheaper - and they have. I guess I'll stick with wav for the forseeable future, and just add anotehr drive when the time comes. Eventually, I will move to a 2TB RAID NAS (because NAS is supported by the Audiotron, and I suspect many others as well).

Regardless of what we are using for our DAR's (Audiotron, SQueezebox, Roku, etc), I just think it's such a profound shift in the way we access our music. I could never see going back. Ever.

Mark

I agree with old_school. These devices have made a big change in really enjoying everyday listening of music. Just hit a button and your off and running with all the music you have ever purchased. Oddly they seem to be a tuff sell to people who have never used them.

The usual question is why spend $300 on a device like an SB when you can get a 20GB player that needs no computer and fits in your pocket.

That's a good question... Once you can hook the portable up with a good digital connection and maybe the TV for a display, and have remote control, there won't really be a place for things like the SB. Another couple of years, I expect it will head that way.

I think even then that folks like Roku Labs and Slim Devices will still have a market after portable players evolve into more home-theater-centric devices (digital output to avoid mediocre DACs, video output for navigation), and old_school's setup touches on one reason why. First, a stack of hard drives will allow you to forego compression and preserve your material in its original form - until you can get a 1TB iPod, that won't be possible with a portable. In addition to that, you have some other benefits. A NAS or server can be accessed from anywhere in the house (assuming you have a network connection there), so multiple units can share that pool of data. Plus those systems will allow you to store more than just audio, although we're just starting to see that ability used. The Kaleidescape DVD server offers a tempting hint, as does the Roku Photobridge HD (which will play back HD-quality video across the network, allowing you to set up a computer as SD/HD DVR and access it from multiple locations in the house).

I haven't made the move to a setup like this yet, but I've mulled it over a few times and may still go through with it in the next couple years.

A good friend of mine has a Happauge application that he uses with his cable and Happauge video capture board on one of his PCs to write shows to the hard drive.

He has (as do I) a wired and wirelss network, and the Happauge application allows you to use the PC as a DVR and stream content over the wired or wireless (I think it depends on how much you compress etc). I think there are others (i.e. Roku Photobridge et al) as well. With the Happauge (and I suspect otehrs), as I understand it, you purchase a small box that has an IR receiver, and RJ-45 connector (the wired network version) and an S-Video output, along with an analog left and right audio output. The box also acts as an IR receiver that communicates back to the host PC what stream you would like to watch that has been recorded (you get a sort of TV Guide screen like what you might see on cable or satellite to help you browse for shows to be recorded or that have been recorded). In essence, this (and I assume others) allow you to run the DVR (on the host PC) as though the DVR were in the room. Like the Audiotron / Roku / Squeezebox.. they are independent, so they can all share the data (even though I don't yet have the NAS, all three of my Audiotrons see the same shared drives for my wavs, and I often have all three playing at the same time - works perfectly at each station).

It's clear that 2000 - 2005 have been years of immense technical growth, and it's only going to get more capable and more affordable (well, that's my $0.02 anyway).

Man...do I love this forum...

Mark

Nice to hear you mention Hauppague. I also have the product (Media MVP) in my system. I use it to show pictures on my HT, off my PC. The device also handles mpeg1 and 2 files, plus mp3s.

Helped design-in one of the components in the MVP during my real life job(apps engineer). A great group of guys at Hauppague, good hard-working small business.

Dave

Sony HPL51
108" DaLite
Outlaw 990
LFM1x2
B&W 802 (L+R)
BA surrounds
ADCOM 5500, 535II
CAL CL-15 CD
RCA DVD
SA 8300HD

I've got a couple of Soundbridge units and am increasingly happy with every software release (btw, update notifications and downloads are performed right from the unit). Earlier problems that I encountered like constant re-buffering and inability to find my libraries have been all but eliminated with the latest release. There are a couple of enhancements that still need to be developed (fast-forward and reverse, improved scroll and search capabilities, ability to play the same selection simultaneously on both units for a "whole house" effect) but overall it's fun to use, and with 1400 or so CDs loaded up it facilitates listening to stuff that I might have otherwise passed over when visually glomming through the jewel cases. Soundwise, I run one from my 990 in 7ch stereo and one from a 1050 in 2ch stereo mode (most of the time) - both are conncected through digital coax and sound just fine for everday listening - still, they are more of a convenience factor than an audiophile consideration. I am running both wirelessly - one caution, if you are considering wireless check their website (www.rokulabs.com) for a recommended list of wireless routers, it really does make a difference.

The answer for me is lossless digital files (I use flac) and my cd collection spans more than 250 GB of hard drive space. Not sure we'll see portable devices with that kind of capacity in the near future.

I use a Sqeezebox (V3) with a little mac mini and it works great. It replaced a windows box with Foobar2000 and the interface is so much nicer, internet radio (Live 365, Radio IO etc) is easy to cue up, no need to have the monitor on (the computer yes, but heck the PVR's going 24/7). I just find it a great way to listen to my collection and discover new music with a minimum of headaches.

double post

tonygeno - Thats about the same setup I've got. 250gb - one day probably closer then we think in your pocket and wireless -- That'll rock. The mac mini is pretty sweet for this use. I like my digital media setup, can't wait for it to get better.

oops... forgot about the pvr.. Need to merge all the media together and add in the GBs. Would be nice to not run a pvr for video and the mini for music. I'm certain you can do it today if you want to spend your time hacking up tivo. I'd rather just buy something -- seems time is really just not something you can get more of.