Right, except that it was a silly statement and based on his hopes and pride as an owner.

Just as he pointed out how foolish it is to bash an Outlaw unit based solely on pride, its just as foolish to compare the Outlaw to the High End world. Outlaw didn't make the 990 to compete with Arcam or Parasound. The Anthem unit may have very well been on their radar. The Anthem is a slightly better unit. To me, spending $2,000 more is far more than slightly stupid all things considered.

However the Arcam unit is a far better sounding unit in stereo and movie playback. I've seen the specs on the Parasound unit as well. Just knowing the DACs and circuitry involved the Parasound should have an edge as well.

I'm positive the Outlaw people would be quick to point out that the high end equipment has better parts that are far too expensive for the market that Outlaw is after. They just can't compete, and aren't meant to. I'm not going to compare the performance engine of a Ferrari to that of a Honda Civic engine. Two totally different ballparks, but I'm sure that consumer reports and most buyers still consider the Civic a class leader.

Personally I'd love to see what Outlaw could do with the same DACs, processing power, power units, circuitry, etc. If they had a $2,500 pre-pro that competed with the Arcams, Parasounds, Bel Cantos, Meridians, Krell, Theta Digitals, etc. of the world I'd definately take a good hard listen.

Fact is they don't. So when Outlaw owners say that they're competition to the big high end companies they look foolish.

Why can't they just be damn proud that they are better for the money than the $1,000 to $2,000 market that their Pre-Pro is in? Mind you I accept the fact that there are units that cost $3,000 that are hard to justify when the Outlaw is considered. However there are steals in the same ballpark of $3,000 that have an exceptional sound.

Bottomline: The internet has forums where people say stupid things. However, there are Outlaw owners who say just as stupid of comments. They are baiting the jerks out there.

Actually I was pretty impressed that the discussion stayed civil. Pretty good for a 'net forum. Even the Anthem guy (forgeet his name) was only mildly snobbish and had the good taste to bow out soon.

As for what is and isn't high end .... I tend to assume most outlandish claims are untrue. Further, companies and people who make such claims taint their other, less incredible claims by association. Things like:

• Power wires that make a processor or power amp sound "better" with no instrumental proof
• Premium wire in general, but to a lesser degree
• Descriptions of "better" sound that are like listening to a wine critic.
• Unfalsifiable claims in general

I also believe that, to a degree, a person generally gets what they pay for. Folks like "Mr Anthem" get irate, but really, look at the products! The Anthem may sound similar, but the plethora of non-sonic features and options catapult it in a different class than the 990, and in this price class being able to smoothly integrate into a system is worth substantial $$$, since by this time it's assumed the sonics are at least passable.

Nice 1,000th post, charlie (and a good post regardless of the number).

Good discussion, but I can't believe no one has brought up the Sherwood P-965. The 990 twin, but now with SNAP room EQ, it looks to fill a nitch very few other processors fill. When you have a couple of peaks in your bass, as I do, this can be a very important feature.

I also want to log in on the 990 is not as good as the Arcam debate. I have a question I hope some one can answer. Does the 990 have discrete 192 kHz 24-bit DAC’s for all channels, or is this done via a single chip?

I guess I always assumed there was individual DAC's for each channel, but while reading a review recently on the Arcam AVP-700 I found it uses a single chip for all eight channels for D/A and A/D conversion.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/surroundsoundpreampprocessors/1205arcam/

Is this normal, or are they cutting corners with the AVP-700?

Also, it was mentioned the 990 was not designed to compete with the Arcam line, so was the AVP-700 designed to compete with the 990, P-965, AVM30, etc? List price of just over two grand, and it has balanced outputs, HDMI switching. Seems like something has to give. If this model also sounds much better than the 990 then it looks like Arcam has hit a home run.

Anyone heard both that can comment?

According to the Outlaw web site, the 990 has discrete stereo DACs from Analog Devices:

http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CAD1852%2C00.html

Of course, it is more than the part itself that determines the sound of the product, but the AD parts in the 990 are a very good choice.

I don't think the new AVP-700 was made to compete with Outlaw, etc. I think it was made for the Arcam crowd that wanted a separate version of their high end receiver. Its supposed to be a hell of a deal, but I haven't had the opportunity to demo it.

The review you point to fails to mention that the AV8 has been replaced by the AV9. Which is supposedly a big thing over at Arcam. The AV8 won best processor awards from The Perfect Vision, Home Cinema, Hi-Fi Choice, TechTV, Hi-Fi News, Widescreen Review, and some others I'm sure that aren't listed in my 1 year old product guide.

They aren't cutting corners either that is normal. Its just one reason the AV9 will sound so much better than a 990 they just aren't built fairly enough to compare.

This is true. I've always had issues with power cords making my system sound better. I've heard the difference I think. However I'm not convinced its really there.

Premium Cables... well I can tell the difference between brands which means they do something to "taint," the signal. I suppose the taint that suits your tastes is the one to go with.

As for critics who use wine tasting like comparisons I concur. I understand "harsh," but someone had to explain "bright," to me when I first read about it. I want a description that lets me know why its really better. "Rounded," sound? WTF, I need a reviewers glossary.

I hope I was able to say why we all thought the Arcam AV8 was better than the rest. The image was deeper wider and more defined. Meaning that if someone dropped something and it broke on the floor you could sense the exact spot where it broke. Master & Commander you could hear the wood creak in direct spots. It was far more defined than any of us (except the lucky Arcam owner) had heard before. The sound image was far more three dimensional. Hopefully that description makes sense.

No magic, just the best sound we'd heard from movies we KNEW.

To me it was a painful double edged sword. It proved that at least some high end really do something better to make them worth more money (to some people anyway).

Unfortunately it also made me want an Arcam. I think my pocketbook would have been much happier if I'd never witnessed that and just had to make the 990 or AVM30 decision. Which to me would have been easy and saved me $2,000. Instead I spent $4,000 more.

Again when you look at the specs and see the innerds you understand why one is better than the other. There is no magic going on, just a lot more processing power, more DACs, etc.

Good discussion here. Really appreciate all the input.
I am in the same boat, I was set on the Outlaw 990/7700 combo until I came across the Arcam AVP700/P1000 combo. Yes, I'll be spending more money with the Arcam's but the real test of course would be to have these 2 combos in an A/B test. My dillema is do I get the cheaper with the more powerful amp Outlaw combo or the more expensive Arcam combo with the higher end sound? Since I was going to use these with very innefficient Magnepan speakers (3.6Rs but also looking into the 1.6QRs, CC3 and MC1s) and I've heard the wonderful Arcam sound, I am thinking Arcam is sort of the Outlaw in the high end world, where their performance is high end and the price is mid-end. Of course this may well apply to their FMJ series but possibly not with the Divas. So my thoughts for now are to go with the Arcams since they just seem to be a level above the Outlaws in terms of sound quality and also their resale value later on will be much better.

What do you think?

Well, I'll be looking at the AVP-700 for sure, and Rotel is seductive with those sexy digital amps ....

The arcam stuff is nice. Expensive...but nice. If you're hung up on the arcam sound, my suggestion would be to pick up the AVP700, but skip their amp. The P1000 is nothing special and a bit expensive for what you get. You could make much better use of those funds with a more value priced amp since you'll need the extra juice to drive 3.6's.

I've got two friends with rather expensive Tact systems and both of them have remarked (independently) that if they were on a tighter budget they'd have gotten an Arcam pre and some other amp. One is driving MMG's and the other is driving Thiel 7.2's.

Cheers,