Capt - I've talked to Outlaw recently, and I can tell you that they are serious about making sure that the 990's bass management works as designed in every mode. I don't believe that Braidkid is questioning any of that, anyway - I think he's referred to some debate that has gone on about the way that stereo analog bypass was designed to work.

I have been on the fence until the 7700 was shipping. I am about to order a 7700/990 combo and also Axiom speakers, including their M80ti towers. Thus, I will have large mains and "small" surrounds. Will this be a problem for direct inputs? I use these now with my "cheap" Sony receiver, and I assume the audio will be best with the 5.1 inputs rather than either coax or optical digital cables.

As I understand it, I should be able to run a 2.1 set up for audio only, if I desire, with anything below 40hz sent to my HSU subwoofer. For home theater, SACD or DVD-A I will be running 7.1 and will want anything lower than 80 HZ sent to the subwoofer. Is this a problem with different sized speakers, or is everyong complaining for issues that won't affect me?

Please let me know before I order.

The 990 should have no problem with this arrangement, although if you set the M80ti's to "large" you won't have 2.1 - you'd probably want to set them to "small" with a crossover of 40Hz. My Paradigm Studio/60's have a similar frequency response to the M80ti's, and this sort of arrangement has worked well for me. (While on the subject of 2.1 playback, The Capt has indicated that he believes all stereo playback modes are exhibiting a full-range subwoofer signal, even though only the stereo analog bypass mode is intended to behave this way - I haven't had a chance to verify this, and I haven't seen anything to indicate whether there is definitely a software issue or a hardware glitch in Capt's unit.) I'd only recommend the 5.1 analog connection for DVD-Audio or SACD - the 990's DSP modes are only going to be available with Video DVD's if you use the coaxial or optical inputs, and the 990's DAC's are no slouches. Currently the way that bass management works with the 7.1 input is two ways: if all speakers are set to large, then there is no bass management; but if some or all speakers are set to small, the input is converted to digital and the digital bass mangement (quadruple crossovers and all) is applied. There have been several requests for an extra setting that would serve as a standalone toggle for this behavior ("pure analog bypass" or "digital bass management" for the 7.1 direct input), but we haven't heard if this will be included in a future firmware update.

I spoke with Outlaw today after reading this thread yesterday to be sure of how the LFE was distributed. The person I spoke to read all of the posts and verified that Gonk was correct in his explanation of how LFE was applied with regards to small/large speakers and 2 channel/multi channel listening

Gonk:
Thanks for the reply. I forgot to add what you stated -- that movies would be watched through a digital connection for DD decoding. What concerns me about setting the speakers to small is having too much bass. Does Bass Management include the ability to set different db levels for the subwoofer out? I don't want to have to physically turn down the gain on the subwoofer when switching from audio to movies, but I also don't want to miss the ability to get really low bass from the sub while using the superior speakers for everthing above about 40HZ. Am I worrying too much? Before I spend $7,000 on a set-up (with speakers), I want to be sure I am not wasting my time.

Thanks.

The system calibration should help with this primarily - you calibrate the system for an even response from all channels, including the sub, so that you don't have that problem. Movie soundtracks get the vast majority of their deep rumble from the LFE track, whereas music (aside from pipe organs) rarely dips below 50Hz or so. If you are still worried, you may be a good candidate for the 990's two-channel sub offset - this is a feature that allows the sub to be tuned down a few dB (up to about 6dB of reduction) when in any stereo mode. I use this with about a -2dB adjustment for music listening.

The biggest issue i have with 990 BM is that I don't have a place to install the 990 yet, so I don't own one. An oversight I intend to fix ASAP!

This is the last post I will ever make on this subject...and yes, I heard that sigh of relief.

I don't believe there are problems with my unit, I know it to be fact. Other 990 owner's units are exhibiting the EXACT same quirks, so unless all of our units fell off the same pallet, this is a native firmware issue.

The response posted by Brad225 is typical of the problems encountered when trying to get to the bottom of this.

Number one, LFE distribution has nothing to do with rerouted bass in analog stereo inputs. LFE has only to to with specific digital formats. It is quite probable that the the response from tech support was 100% accurate on how the unit handles the LFE channel in with those formats. For two channel analog listeners wishing to incorporate a subwoofer, the subject of LFE is of ZERO consequence. The area of bass management is what should be of concern, specifically the lack of it.

Secondly, my experience with Outlaw tech support is that they are more than knowledgeable as to how the unit is supposed to work. I can call them up right now and they will gladly tell me how the bass management system works. The problem is between what is supposed to work and what is really happening are two very different things.

From all the private email messages I have received because of this topic, it is apparent to me that there is a lot of interest in the 990 from people without much knowledge of pre/pros. That's great, because the 990 would be an excellent product to begin exploring HT and music with. But they also have been given some bad advice by some users of this forum, Outlaw tech support, and diehard Outlaw defenders. The bottom line on this is this:

If you use two channel analog sources and expect the subwoofer to properly integrate into your stereo listing, you are in for a nasty surprise. Large or small speaker settings both have issues when it comes to using the sub on these inputs. Those of us who have a 990 already must limp by with a workaround of using the subs internal crossover (God help you don't have a passive sub), but think twice before you walk into the product thinking a monkey-rig workaround is as acceptable as a working product. And for petes sake, don't buy another component to compensate for the 990's problems!

Here is the thing, I use 100hz xovers on my rear speakers, LFE sometimes goes quite high as well. Because of these 2 reasons, I would have to either leave my sub xover off (as I want it) or set it to some value greater than 100hz. If I don't, material will be lost. Now, with my mains being set to 40hz (or large for that matter), and a full range signal signal going to the sub, things ain't kosher. Meaning, the ever evil double bass issue. So, I guess I could reach in the back of my sub, and using a mirror, re-adjust the sub each time, no?
I understand the "workaround" statement was meant as a "better than nuthin" temporary bandaid, but I just need to say that it isn't really a fix, per say, just better than nuthin is all.
Now, I believe the outlaws when they say a fix is coming. Actually, I hope they are working on a good autoeq as well; maybe fix the stupid lack of current mode display and add ability to REALLY set a default mode depending on input type. Hell, they might even fix the 7.1 input so it can bypass A/D/A, while allowing the other inputs to have digital multi xover (sort of like the 970). Maybe they are working on a surprize that I hadn't thought of! I think these things might be in the works...I only hope this issue, and the inpatience of some (and, I suppose a understandable impatience, not having the faith that I do) doesn't leave us with a update that leaves out plans that were originally on the table, so as to get the fix out to stop the noise on the board. Of course, it could be argued that the noise here is the only reason that it is getting a fix at all...hard to say. Anyhow, thanks everyone for all the tests that I hadn't had time to do (I just listen and say "now, that ain't right, should I throw more money at the system honey?") And hope this all wraps up nicely soon enough...

To The Captain:

Just as you have said that this is your last post on this topic, this will be my first and only post. We have been meeting with Etronics, the manufacturer of the 990 and the both of us are collaborating on a comprhensive update of the software, which will be available to all customers by download when it is completed and field/beta tested. As you might suspect we read and analyze every comment in this forum.However, as we said from the very beginning, we do not use this forum to promote or cheerlead our point of view. The Saloon is the forum of our customers and potential customers.

As we learn more about the 990 behavior and the desires of our owners we constantly strive to improve its' software behavior. As has been mentioned by other Outlaws, this is a complicated process. Every code change often has other unintended side effects. Therefore it takes time to "get it right"

We also stand on our own six year track record of our customer support. We have assembled a list of changes that we want to see implemented and are spending a great deal of time ensuring that theey behave as intended.We promise that the software changes will make the 990 even better. Will these changes address every wish? We doubt it. There is always one or two unusual cases that might require a totally different approachnot possible in the 990 platform. However,what we are working on should satisfy most of the issues pointed out in this forum.Please give us the benefit of the doubt and let us get our job completed.

For the majority of you, we are pleased with your reaction to this remarkable product. Thank you for reading this. Now back to the dungeons.

Peter Tribeman

President,

Outlaw Audio