This may be a lenghty post about dead issues so if you don't want to read it...move on.

All 990 owners (including myself) should give the benefit of the doubt to Outlaw regarding the issues with the 990. If I am correct in what I think the problems are...this is a huge problem for them to solve. Think about it:

I don't know how many units Outlaw has sold. Hundreds...Thousands? From their point of view the bass management of the unit might be defective, and it MIGHT be a unit-wide problem. If it is and I am Outlaw Audio, I am now locked in a debate with the manufacturer about engineering Vs manufacturing blame. I am simultaneously working on a fix with both, and all the repercussions of added expense responsibility that brings. Engineering has a problem to solve even as they are dutifully searching for what is really to blame. Much worse, engineering, manufacturing, and my organization may be separated by companies, continents and time zones. Not one single key area may be in house and under my direct control with instant access. More reputations than just my own might be on the line...and others might be defending theirs.

I am also deeply questioning my beta testing procedure, my beta testers reliability, and the knowledge of certain professional audio reviewers.
I have to figure out how to tactfully tell responsible consumers they have a defective product...even if they have not figured it out. I have to implement damage control on my own forum to keep potential new customers interested and existing customers happy. I have to overhaul my systems to make sure it does not happen again.
I also have to maintain open communications within the OTHER product lines in my organization. Sales, service, issues, pricing, availability & distribution.
But most of all I have to run a profitable business through all of this. I have to make difficult choices as to how much I allow my customers to know, because making a bad choice here can have lasting consequences.

When you take all of this into account, there is no speedy fix to the problem. Your best bet as a business is to get this thing right this time. hurried responses could cause more damage than slower ones. At the same time, your peeved off customers are demanding SOMETHING be done.

My question in all this as a business owner myself is:

What do YOU do and say in this situation?

I personally think the amount of information released thus far to be satisfactory. I believe the update will come...and it will be right.
Businesses can't afford to get things like this wrong. Collectively, we can all begin the cry for an update at some near point in the future. But for now I think a little understanding is in order.

I agree with you CAPT!

Few products have actually ended up working the way I want them to and I have been stuck with them. At present the 990 issues do not effect me directly as they are not present in the way I have the unit set up. Also, with Outlaw I truly believe they will get the issues resolved; it is just a matter of time.
I have had two Toshiba DVD players in the past (bought at the same time) that would not play discs and Toshiba would not help me with them right outside of the year warranty. There were known firmare fixes for the issues and I was left cold. Moral of the story, I will never buy Toshiba again.
Outlaw hasn't said "no we won't help you". I feel they will come through. The issue must be more difficult than was orginally thought. I think the 990 is an excellent value and and am happy to wait in luei of what I would have spent purchasing a much pricier competitor's unit, some with problems of their own.

Capt looking for brownie points
(and you think you have long posts, haha I am cursed on rambling on and on and on)


"But most of all I have to run a profitable business through all of this."

This is the most accurate point in above.

Unfortunately this can be done in many ways
1. Ensuring products are top notch and customers come first
2. Sell more then are returned, no need for customer support.

Too many companies are focusing towards #2 above.
This is also the biggest flaw of companies with dealing with customers.
The essential is that this statement states that profits are more important then providing a solid product.

It is much easier to put resources in selling to new people then support the old.

===========================================
Lets use the tool industry for e.g.
I normally sell good quality tools,
1 unit = $100 and my cost is $60
This is a very good unit and Last a long time

then I use the philosophy above And i change my tool line

1 unit = $70 and my cost is $10 And i still over lifetime warranty
But the part quality is crap.

I am making more money cause
1. My product is cheaper to sell
2. My product Cost is lower
3. Even if i offer lifetime warranty I can give away 3 Replacement units to everyone and still make higher margins.
4. knowing that most people do not return a product for warranty, I make even more margin.

This also forces competitors to use the same philosophy and thus come out with even more cheaper stuff to compete with the previous company.

Too bad this is today company beliefs. And because of this no one makes good quality parts anymore, in any industry.
=========================================


Thus if I can sell 10 units for everyone that complains , then it is still a plus. I don’t need to inform them mass of the problems with the units and most people are gullible and only resort to 'getting pissed off' and never buying a product again.

So many times I have seen in the service industry where people don’t raise their concerns and just 'never buy from that manufactures again' THIS IS a false Positive. Your taking the short term profits for long term future.

This is why I always bring up my issues, and it is how the company deals with it dictates what i do. I understand their is always issues, but it IS up to the company to provide what people pay for.

You cannot advertise that your product does something, and not stand behind it.

I like outlaw thus far, but they have to be more responsible for dealing with their issues.
What I mean about ‘dealing’ is Inform the people whom ask. And not use the political tactic of running around the issue. (for What ever reasons).

If I see a tactics like the one that The Capt expressed, Then As a customer I use as much power as I can to ensure the companies I deal with do not take advantage of the customers generosities.

I am here to ensure that Specific topic are being looked at, because as a customer is should be entitled to something in writing.

As soon as you put something in writing you are held more accountable for your actions.
It is this accountability that reinforces your companies ‘true’ position.

IF you can put things is writing, AND complete them, This is Very convincing to many others that you do as you say. Thus Trust is reinforced.

I could have returned my product, but this would have been WORSE PR for outlaw.
This would have got rid of the forum posts, and ignorantly instill the belief that all is AOK.
In reality I would have told ALL my friends about my experiences,, and thus prevent many other friends from getting outlaws.. The Biggest problem with this, is that Outlaw does not know how many sales they have lost.
(BTW I have 4 people lined up for outlaws IF they fix the issues)


Therefore to answer the question
What would I do.

The people asking for specifics,
I would work with them.
I would inform these people of the extent of the issues, and say that I am working on the issues to resolve them
I would create a quick list of the issues to alleviate the concerns.

I would also work with forum people to find out What features people are looking for and what features they can live without. (outlaw is good at this)

I would tell them that the specific issues is known, and recommend a partial solution until a fix is in place. And if a partial cannot be made, Then I ensure the customer is dually compensated to maintain them as a customer.

AKA
I would also back My words with Money if needed.

I would refund a partial amount to the end user if needed to compensate them for a faulty product. This Action alone will save more money in the long run, as it:
1. alleviates any trust issues (as the end user is compensated)
2. It is cheaper then shipping back and refunding brokerage fees
3. The end user gets what he pays for (faulty and all)
4. The company Keeps a customer (happy customer)
5. The company gets good references from the happy customer
6. If something happens and a ‘feature’ is taken out that the customer wanted (AKA they could not fix the issues)(faulty part) Then the end user is still ‘satisfied’ as he got a compensated for that feature with the rebate. He got what he paid for.

I would also Not rely on 3rd party product so much without proper beta testing.

In short if is sell a product and say it can do 1 b c and d , It is My responsibility to ensure it all works. IF for some reason ‘d’ does not work then customers should be financially compensated. This small compensation Is much better off then returning a product and getting a bad repore,.

=========================================================

Unfortunate companies only see the sale, they do not see the sales lost. Thus they make decisions based of sales alone.


As a business owner myself, I prefer people that bring up issues, Because I know that for every 1 person that brings up issues there is 10-100 users that are concerned but for some reason do not inform me. The advantage about this is that If I get a fix out ASAP and let everyone know, Then I am praised as being proactive and truly caring about the end users.

I also know that there is bad people that ask way too much, I understand these people truly think the world is owed to them, Unfortunately there is also 10-100 people that expect the same thing. For these people I just inform them bluntly that I cant do that, and this is what you are going to get. I Also use this information to inform Potential customers what not to expect. This is to reduce stress and problems later with other customers.

In the long run What you get is a base of loyal understanding customers, From this base you get more and more ‘good ‘clients. As this good base also knows people that are the same and thus are a good base people as well.

We have been in business for over 5 year now, and Because of this methods, we have very few if any ‘bad clients’ and all our client base is extremely solid regardless of our higher prices. They all know what to expect and they all know that when problems arise they let us know and we will keep them informed of all progress. And if we can’t provide something we let them know. And inform them of the costs in order for us to implement a solution. IF we cant/ do not want to deal with it, we refer to someone that can help them.


I beleive htis is bad practise, but

What IS your problem? If you don't like the product, and feel it isn't for you, RETURN IT. The post from Scott says that you can get your money back if you don't like the product. What more can you ask for? Isn't that the compensation you are looking for? It seems as though you simply want to stretch this out with interminable posts that are difficult to read.

No one is forcing you to keep it.

If you know ANYTHING about Outlaw, you will see that they have faced significantly worse things that what you are babbling about and have made good. Why do you doubt that they won't do the same here?

Trolboy, I mean PodBoy, You really dont understand what this is about do you?

I try to educate people but i guess you dont understand cause you dont want to listen, or perhaps cause you lack the ability to learn.

The above post is NOTHIGN BAD regarding Outlaw, we are simply discussing business practises.

As for the Outlaw issues and my processor, I have already resolved most of them with outlaw. And am waiting for 1 more confirmation.

As you can see, Because of my methods things do get resolved, and for the better. I get to keep my unit and outlaw get a very reliable end users.

If i had done your simple method of just 'returning it', It would have been bad PR for outlaw and everyone that i know.

But then again I guess you are differnt person, perhaps you are a person that goes to a resturant and doesn't complain if you dont get what you want And then you just leave and never come back... OR worse yet you dont complain and Dont leave a tip to the waiter because you were too ignorant to see if the waiter is willing to help you out if you just mentioned it.

I also assume that you are the that side idley by while other less 'voicefull' get hosed?

Also i am guessing that you are from the USA, thus you do not have to pay 200+ extra in brokerage/shipping and taxes to get your outlaw 990.

Do you really think i would get all my money back? How naive are you, Read the Outlasw Policies on returning.

If i wasnt getting 100% of my money back then I would expect the unit to do as the manual says it does.

And i would rather try to get it to work then return it.

If something works 90% of the way, then i would rather get it fixed, but before that i need to get confirmation that it actually exists.

And i know that you really really don't understand what my issue was with outlaw do you?

And I dont think that if i told you (as i have posted in other posts) you would still not understand. Thus i am not going to explain mysql again...

Go live in your bubble world where you avoid all conflict altogether and let other walk all over other right in front of your eyes. And I will deal with my issues my way to ensure that people like you are protected.

In short if you dont like my rants, ignore my posts, and they will eventually get pushed down the list. And please stop trolling my posts. And if you are going to post post on the initial subject of the thread.

P.S. I know i went off subject with this last post, And i will not post to this user again like that.

PodBoy: if want to tell me to f-off or any more ranting, telling, attacking, please send me a PMessage, so that the forums do not get filled up with our banter.

Other then that have a good day.

TheNetGuy,

Thanks for your persistence on getting a commitment to fix some issues on the 990.

But I find your attitude to be condescending, your attacks to be juvenile, your manner boorish, and your spelling atrocious (hope I don't have any typos in this post!)

Have a great day!

Regards,

Dave

Lonster (trying not to help beat a dead horse)

Do you get paid by the word? Can you say anything in less than a poorly spelled rant?

You know nothing more about me than I know about you. (Other than you are acting like a spoiled kid about this.)

There is a significant difference between questioning a product or service that you find objectionable and BEING objectionable in the way you do it. I have no objection to the former, you are good evidence of the latter.

If YOU can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen...or should I say Saloon.

You made your point once. Twice. Three times.

Foul language and long, rambling posts are a mark of someone who knows anything BUT how to solve a situation such as this. Is there any reason to treat people here with less than respect, just as you would like to be treated.

Learn some manners.

The point of this thread has been well made, and since it is our policy not to tolerate inappropriate language or attacks on Saloon participants, we are locking this thread. Please abide by our policies and make the Saloon a welcoming place for all.