hello

I am looking to upgrae my system and I plan on getting Paradigm Studios for my speakers. I am also planning on going with separates. I have been looking at the Anthem AVm 30 for a while and than I seen the 990, which I find has atleast 95% of the features that the AVM 30 has. over all has any one compared the 2 units? Will I gain any significant preformance with the AVM 30? Also one thing that is making me lean abit towards the AVM 30 is the HDMI upgrade. Knowing that Blue ray and HD DVD will be coming out and that most of it will be passed through HDMI does anyone know if Outlaw will provide a hardware upgrade for them? What I am also trying to figure out is, will Blue Ray and HD DVD become standards that replace regular DVD or will they be accesories like SACD and DVD A?

Thanks

Jay

Home Theatre Sound carried a head to head subjective review of the Anthem versus the Outlaw 990 and concluded that even at 3X price difference you could barely tell the difference (maybe).

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/outlaw_990.htm

It sounded like the reviewer would not have been able to tell any difference in a blinded test -- no objective data can describe the sound of an HT system so you have to take the reviewers word on it. Other reviewers have compared the Outlaw favorably with high price Lexicons. The real performance differences, if any, will be so tiny that the price difference would not be justified unless you want the pride of having spent a lot more money than you friends and neighbors. One cannot set aside the possibility that the highly trained ear of a demanding audiophile or sound engineer could spot some subtle difference--I can't. I opted for the 990 without hearing it over the AVM 30 and Statement D1. The difference wasn't worth it to me at this time. I doubt that I could hear it, but not having done an A-B in the same room I can only say I love my 990 and I have owned Lexicons that weren't as good (or as recent to be fair--apples and oranges). A few years from now, that may change.

I say a few years because the Anthem upgrade will not allow HDMI audio to be passed from HD DVDs or Blue Rays at full lossless resolution over 7.1 channels. That will require a new HDMI chipset to implement the as of now not finalized HDMI 1.3 standard. HDMI can carry 5.1 at high bitrates, however. That's maybe enough. Moreover, it may be that copy protection issues will inhibit full resolution digital transfer for quite some time. Content providers want to stop piracy so we may be using analog cables until they have a air tight copy management system. HDMI buys you nothing right now which is why Outlaw went with DVI. A wise choice. BTW, the Outlaw analog pass-through is transparent and clear as a bell.

If we had a crystal ball we could answer your best question. Who knows if one or both of the two formats will make it? I suspect it will take them a long time because of the format war and the large user base that is happy with DVD quality. It will be a limited distribution item for the first few years but eventually one format or the other will take over from DVD--since the computer industry may drive this choice is an age of convergence, Blue Ray may have the long term edge but even that's not clear. What is clear is that it's going to take 3-4 years at least for the formats to sort out and become popular (if at all) and about the same length of time for player-processor connections to be 8-channel hi-res (by HDMI 1.3 or its sucessor). My own opinion is that they will be accesories for 3 years at least.

I faced the same choice you do and after months of study (and waiting for Anthem to annouce an upgrade), I bought the 990 as a 2-3 year solution. I am now not so sure I won't keep it longer. I love it for music and HDTV. Couldn't be happier.

I have also come to the conclusion that format and hardware changes will continue to accelerate. I used to think all these competing formats and techologies would finally sort out and the need for change would slow down. But that's not going to happen. As soon as you buy a system something that is supposedly better will be announced. Will it really be better and will it enhance the listening experience? Usually not. Technology is changing rapdily and marketing wants to sell product so your new set will be obsolete in 6 months if you want to look at it that way. On the other hand, Outlaw is catering to an audience that wants a good experience at an incredibly low cost. I repeat my mantra often. I am satisfied with my system for now. I will be strong. I will resist the urge to change components ever month. I will sit and listen and enjoy for a while.

Very nice post AudioBear. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Jay, I have the hook up for you....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5747855&&#post5747855

This post compares the AVM20 to the 990. Very similar in sonics to the AVM30.

My two cents....for $1k, you simply can't beat the value of the 990. Sure, the AVM30 may sound slightly better to the experienced audiophile, but is it worth an extra $2k? The fact the 990 is often compared to Anthem, Lexicon, Sunfire, etc. is proof enough for me that it is not a lousy performer. Add to this Outlaw's top notch tech support and the support of the people here and you have a clear winner. Do you want to throw a lot of money at something right now with these new formats on the horizon?

Thanks braidkid. I always wondered if the reason that Outlaw Audio choose the name Outlaw is that giving electronic consumers honest value is against the laws of consumer electronic retail. One major pet peeve of mine is all the people (especially reviewers in whose mags the reviewed company advertises) who claim to hear differences that are totally subjective and can't be documented. If a reviewer doesn't test blind A-B in the same room with absolute level equality and no processing or tone controls, what they say is meaningless. Speakers make more difference than any other component by a wide margin followed by amps. Media quality is often ignored, Garbage in--garbage out and there are some bad sound tracks being sold. The reason why I use a DEQX is to greatly improve the speakers and make the amps' life simple. The processor is a lot less important for overall quality reproduction since most modern pre-amps perform quite well -- but pre-amps and processors have lots of features, bells and whistles that vendors can change and sell more of.

Consider also:

Neither Anthem nor Outlaw have Firewire in--bummer
7.1 track media doesn't yet exist
Outlaw has 7.1 analog inputs but Anthem doesn't
Video processing is best done outside the audio processor
Some will need Anthem's upcoming undoubtedly great video processor
I don't need it so why pay for it
You are really renting equipment from the industry, it's a cost of entertainment

AB - First off I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what you have said. However I think most of what you have said in the quoted text is not factual. Granted this is still an evolving technology but unless you know something I don't, the planned Anthem HDMI does in fact carry eight channels of Hi Resolution audio. Do you have a source for this information that says otherwise?

My understanding is that the new players will be decoding the new Hi-Res formats and sending full resolution eight channel PCM out the HDMI. I believe HDMI 1.1 will handle this without any problem. HDMI 1.3 I believe is adding the capability to send the raw undecoded bitstream data to the processor. There should be no loss in resolution with HDMI 1.1 that I'm aware of.

I also think you have your HDCP argument backwards. Much like in the Video world I believe they want to close the analog “hole” not prolong it. AFAIK the studios have signed off on HDCP although I hear there may be other content that may only be available via Internet connection or some such scheme.

I also disagree that HDMI doesn’t buy you anything today. It buys you two very important items over the present day non-HDMI devices. 1.) It allows a pathway for High resolution multi channel audio from DVD-As and the upcoming HD-DVDs and SACD with HDMI 1.2. 2.) It allows for digital bass management and other manipulations (Auto-EQ ect)in the PrePro without going through an unnecessary A/D conversion this is a big one for me.

For the record I’m a very happy 990 owner and almost picked up an Anthem D1 a few months back but am glad I didn’t. I view the 990 and all present PrePros as a stopgap device until the HDMI devices shake out.

Firewire would be cool but it appears to be pretty much dead in the water as far as hi res audio goes.

As you point out, obie_fl (and as you and I have both mentioned several places lately - seems to be a hot topic these days), HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 will support up to eight channels of PCM audio, which means that HD-DVD and Blu-ray players can decode the audio but leave it in the digital domain. I assumed that AudioBear was looking to pass the audio bitstream from the discs to the processor like we do with DD and DTS currently, which of course won't work until HDMI 1.3 is a reality (whenever that might come to pass).

Every time I hear about the "analog hole" and efforts to plug it, I find myself smiling cynically. Didn't we just get through watching two high-res audio formats drift into niche-market oblivion while waiting impatiently for them to be allowed to offer a digital output? I guess that we can be thankful for the shift from "mandatory analog" to "demon analog" because now we all have at least a 5.1 analog input on our receivers and processors (and in more and more cases a more future-friendly 7.1 input) to let us get at these new audio formats while the digital signal path finishes growing up.

Sorry for not being more exact. Obie-fl is right as I said it and Gonk is right about what I meant to say. HDMI 1.1 is 8 channel high bitrate and 1.2 effectively adds SACD and computer support. But remember that when 1.3 comes it will require new chips--it is not a software upgrade. I was talking about audio bitstream copy protection as well. You tell me--will HDMI 1.3 with HDCP protect the AUDIO to the studios' satisfaction? We are assuming it will be acceptable for the digital Video. It remains to me seen if they leave out people with non-digital hi-res connections. I hope they don't.

As far as HDMI's value today, it is getting better but it is not yet there. Not all devices carry multi-channel signals even if they have HDMI connections. Lots of handshake problems have been reported too. You are right about digital bass management--that's why I wanted Firewire, but there is another solution. Bass management in the DVD-A/SACD-player. Not a perfect solution but it works for some (like my Denon-3910).

I would point readers to the Outlaw 990 support faq which explains their decision to go with DVI.

Q. Why does the Model 990 have DVI switching instead of HDMI?
A. At this time we believe that the more stable DVI format is a more appropriate choice, since it is well established and totally compatible with HDMI from a video standpoint. Unfortunately, HDMI is still a moving target, with the 1.2 specifications still awaiting final release. More importantly, there is a big unknown regarding the specifications of the ñnextî version of HDMI that will allow transport of Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD data streams. (Indeed, the actual specs for the two codecs, themselves, have not been released either.) At this time it is impossible for the Outlaws or anyone else to know if a hardware, rather than software upgrade will be required to accommodate those two new formats on HDMI and with existing DSP engines. Quite frankly, we preferred to select a viable digital video format that is useable today rather than risk a high-cost solution that appears not to be ready for prime time.

See also:
http://www.sherwoodusa.com/new.html

I used to say I would wait for the day that formats sorted out. It will not happen soon. Buy and be happy. If HDMI works for you that's great. I wouldn't hold my breath that a new DVD-HD player will allow you to get 7.1 digital of any kind into the upgraded Anthem, but if it does, I may consider buying it.

Like you, I'm pretty happy with my DVI solution - and not only because all my gear (TV, cable box, and upconverting DVD player) is DVI. Some of the indications I've seen recently suggest that HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 will actually work OK with HD-DVD and Blu-ray, but until we actually see hardware on the market and working there is some risk in assuming that it'll actually work out the way they say it will. I'll probably stay clear of HDMI for most things for at least a couple more years.
I believe that HD-DVD's already come out and said that component analog output will be restricted to 480. I don't recall if that's 480i or 480p. Blu-ray hasn't said anything either way that I've seen.

To go back to Juan's original question. Just how much content will be available on both these formats over the next 2-3 years? How many of them will have real 7.1 sound tracks? My guess: most will be remixed 5.1 sound tracks--how much effort the studios put into it will determine if we really hear any improvement at all. Could be that PLIIX or Logic 7 will do a better job than the studios at creating those last 2 channels.

I don't intend to buy an HD-DVD or Blue-Ray until the prices drop and there's lots of media. If most other consumers feel this way, both formats have a long haul in front of them. That's why compuyer adoption is so important to these formats. Nobody argues with the need for more storage.

Playstation 3 will have bluray, so a couple million people will have Bluray players in about a year. If not for that I wouldn't be thinking about compatibility too much.