hello

I am looking to upgrae my system and I plan on getting Paradigm Studios for my speakers. I am also planning on going with separates. I have been looking at the Anthem AVm 30 for a while and than I seen the 990, which I find has atleast 95% of the features that the AVM 30 has. over all has any one compared the 2 units? Will I gain any significant preformance with the AVM 30? Also one thing that is making me lean abit towards the AVM 30 is the HDMI upgrade. Knowing that Blue ray and HD DVD will be coming out and that most of it will be passed through HDMI does anyone know if Outlaw will provide a hardware upgrade for them? What I am also trying to figure out is, will Blue Ray and HD DVD become standards that replace regular DVD or will they be accesories like SACD and DVD A?

Thanks

Jay

Home Theatre Sound carried a head to head subjective review of the Anthem versus the Outlaw 990 and concluded that even at 3X price difference you could barely tell the difference (maybe).

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/outlaw_990.htm

It sounded like the reviewer would not have been able to tell any difference in a blinded test -- no objective data can describe the sound of an HT system so you have to take the reviewers word on it. Other reviewers have compared the Outlaw favorably with high price Lexicons. The real performance differences, if any, will be so tiny that the price difference would not be justified unless you want the pride of having spent a lot more money than you friends and neighbors. One cannot set aside the possibility that the highly trained ear of a demanding audiophile or sound engineer could spot some subtle difference--I can't. I opted for the 990 without hearing it over the AVM 30 and Statement D1. The difference wasn't worth it to me at this time. I doubt that I could hear it, but not having done an A-B in the same room I can only say I love my 990 and I have owned Lexicons that weren't as good (or as recent to be fair--apples and oranges). A few years from now, that may change.

I say a few years because the Anthem upgrade will not allow HDMI audio to be passed from HD DVDs or Blue Rays at full lossless resolution over 7.1 channels. That will require a new HDMI chipset to implement the as of now not finalized HDMI 1.3 standard. HDMI can carry 5.1 at high bitrates, however. That's maybe enough. Moreover, it may be that copy protection issues will inhibit full resolution digital transfer for quite some time. Content providers want to stop piracy so we may be using analog cables until they have a air tight copy management system. HDMI buys you nothing right now which is why Outlaw went with DVI. A wise choice. BTW, the Outlaw analog pass-through is transparent and clear as a bell.

If we had a crystal ball we could answer your best question. Who knows if one or both of the two formats will make it? I suspect it will take them a long time because of the format war and the large user base that is happy with DVD quality. It will be a limited distribution item for the first few years but eventually one format or the other will take over from DVD--since the computer industry may drive this choice is an age of convergence, Blue Ray may have the long term edge but even that's not clear. What is clear is that it's going to take 3-4 years at least for the formats to sort out and become popular (if at all) and about the same length of time for player-processor connections to be 8-channel hi-res (by HDMI 1.3 or its sucessor). My own opinion is that they will be accesories for 3 years at least.

I faced the same choice you do and after months of study (and waiting for Anthem to annouce an upgrade), I bought the 990 as a 2-3 year solution. I am now not so sure I won't keep it longer. I love it for music and HDTV. Couldn't be happier.

I have also come to the conclusion that format and hardware changes will continue to accelerate. I used to think all these competing formats and techologies would finally sort out and the need for change would slow down. But that's not going to happen. As soon as you buy a system something that is supposedly better will be announced. Will it really be better and will it enhance the listening experience? Usually not. Technology is changing rapdily and marketing wants to sell product so your new set will be obsolete in 6 months if you want to look at it that way. On the other hand, Outlaw is catering to an audience that wants a good experience at an incredibly low cost. I repeat my mantra often. I am satisfied with my system for now. I will be strong. I will resist the urge to change components ever month. I will sit and listen and enjoy for a while.

Very nice post AudioBear. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Jay, I have the hook up for you....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5747855&&#post5747855

This post compares the AVM20 to the 990. Very similar in sonics to the AVM30.

My two cents....for $1k, you simply can't beat the value of the 990. Sure, the AVM30 may sound slightly better to the experienced audiophile, but is it worth an extra $2k? The fact the 990 is often compared to Anthem, Lexicon, Sunfire, etc. is proof enough for me that it is not a lousy performer. Add to this Outlaw's top notch tech support and the support of the people here and you have a clear winner. Do you want to throw a lot of money at something right now with these new formats on the horizon?

Thanks braidkid. I always wondered if the reason that Outlaw Audio choose the name Outlaw is that giving electronic consumers honest value is against the laws of consumer electronic retail. One major pet peeve of mine is all the people (especially reviewers in whose mags the reviewed company advertises) who claim to hear differences that are totally subjective and can't be documented. If a reviewer doesn't test blind A-B in the same room with absolute level equality and no processing or tone controls, what they say is meaningless. Speakers make more difference than any other component by a wide margin followed by amps. Media quality is often ignored, Garbage in--garbage out and there are some bad sound tracks being sold. The reason why I use a DEQX is to greatly improve the speakers and make the amps' life simple. The processor is a lot less important for overall quality reproduction since most modern pre-amps perform quite well -- but pre-amps and processors have lots of features, bells and whistles that vendors can change and sell more of.

Consider also:

Neither Anthem nor Outlaw have Firewire in--bummer
7.1 track media doesn't yet exist
Outlaw has 7.1 analog inputs but Anthem doesn't
Video processing is best done outside the audio processor
Some will need Anthem's upcoming undoubtedly great video processor
I don't need it so why pay for it
You are really renting equipment from the industry, it's a cost of entertainment

AB - First off I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what you have said. However I think most of what you have said in the quoted text is not factual. Granted this is still an evolving technology but unless you know something I don't, the planned Anthem HDMI does in fact carry eight channels of Hi Resolution audio. Do you have a source for this information that says otherwise?

My understanding is that the new players will be decoding the new Hi-Res formats and sending full resolution eight channel PCM out the HDMI. I believe HDMI 1.1 will handle this without any problem. HDMI 1.3 I believe is adding the capability to send the raw undecoded bitstream data to the processor. There should be no loss in resolution with HDMI 1.1 that I'm aware of.

I also think you have your HDCP argument backwards. Much like in the Video world I believe they want to close the analog “hole” not prolong it. AFAIK the studios have signed off on HDCP although I hear there may be other content that may only be available via Internet connection or some such scheme.

I also disagree that HDMI doesn’t buy you anything today. It buys you two very important items over the present day non-HDMI devices. 1.) It allows a pathway for High resolution multi channel audio from DVD-As and the upcoming HD-DVDs and SACD with HDMI 1.2. 2.) It allows for digital bass management and other manipulations (Auto-EQ ect)in the PrePro without going through an unnecessary A/D conversion this is a big one for me.

For the record I’m a very happy 990 owner and almost picked up an Anthem D1 a few months back but am glad I didn’t. I view the 990 and all present PrePros as a stopgap device until the HDMI devices shake out.

Firewire would be cool but it appears to be pretty much dead in the water as far as hi res audio goes.

As you point out, obie_fl (and as you and I have both mentioned several places lately - seems to be a hot topic these days), HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 will support up to eight channels of PCM audio, which means that HD-DVD and Blu-ray players can decode the audio but leave it in the digital domain. I assumed that AudioBear was looking to pass the audio bitstream from the discs to the processor like we do with DD and DTS currently, which of course won't work until HDMI 1.3 is a reality (whenever that might come to pass).

Every time I hear about the "analog hole" and efforts to plug it, I find myself smiling cynically. Didn't we just get through watching two high-res audio formats drift into niche-market oblivion while waiting impatiently for them to be allowed to offer a digital output? I guess that we can be thankful for the shift from "mandatory analog" to "demon analog" because now we all have at least a 5.1 analog input on our receivers and processors (and in more and more cases a more future-friendly 7.1 input) to let us get at these new audio formats while the digital signal path finishes growing up.

Sorry for not being more exact. Obie-fl is right as I said it and Gonk is right about what I meant to say. HDMI 1.1 is 8 channel high bitrate and 1.2 effectively adds SACD and computer support. But remember that when 1.3 comes it will require new chips--it is not a software upgrade. I was talking about audio bitstream copy protection as well. You tell me--will HDMI 1.3 with HDCP protect the AUDIO to the studios' satisfaction? We are assuming it will be acceptable for the digital Video. It remains to me seen if they leave out people with non-digital hi-res connections. I hope they don't.

As far as HDMI's value today, it is getting better but it is not yet there. Not all devices carry multi-channel signals even if they have HDMI connections. Lots of handshake problems have been reported too. You are right about digital bass management--that's why I wanted Firewire, but there is another solution. Bass management in the DVD-A/SACD-player. Not a perfect solution but it works for some (like my Denon-3910).

I would point readers to the Outlaw 990 support faq which explains their decision to go with DVI.

Q. Why does the Model 990 have DVI switching instead of HDMI?
A. At this time we believe that the more stable DVI format is a more appropriate choice, since it is well established and totally compatible with HDMI from a video standpoint. Unfortunately, HDMI is still a moving target, with the 1.2 specifications still awaiting final release. More importantly, there is a big unknown regarding the specifications of the ñnextî version of HDMI that will allow transport of Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD data streams. (Indeed, the actual specs for the two codecs, themselves, have not been released either.) At this time it is impossible for the Outlaws or anyone else to know if a hardware, rather than software upgrade will be required to accommodate those two new formats on HDMI and with existing DSP engines. Quite frankly, we preferred to select a viable digital video format that is useable today rather than risk a high-cost solution that appears not to be ready for prime time.

See also:
http://www.sherwoodusa.com/new.html

I used to say I would wait for the day that formats sorted out. It will not happen soon. Buy and be happy. If HDMI works for you that's great. I wouldn't hold my breath that a new DVD-HD player will allow you to get 7.1 digital of any kind into the upgraded Anthem, but if it does, I may consider buying it.

Like you, I'm pretty happy with my DVI solution - and not only because all my gear (TV, cable box, and upconverting DVD player) is DVI. Some of the indications I've seen recently suggest that HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 will actually work OK with HD-DVD and Blu-ray, but until we actually see hardware on the market and working there is some risk in assuming that it'll actually work out the way they say it will. I'll probably stay clear of HDMI for most things for at least a couple more years.
I believe that HD-DVD's already come out and said that component analog output will be restricted to 480. I don't recall if that's 480i or 480p. Blu-ray hasn't said anything either way that I've seen.

To go back to Juan's original question. Just how much content will be available on both these formats over the next 2-3 years? How many of them will have real 7.1 sound tracks? My guess: most will be remixed 5.1 sound tracks--how much effort the studios put into it will determine if we really hear any improvement at all. Could be that PLIIX or Logic 7 will do a better job than the studios at creating those last 2 channels.

I don't intend to buy an HD-DVD or Blue-Ray until the prices drop and there's lots of media. If most other consumers feel this way, both formats have a long haul in front of them. That's why compuyer adoption is so important to these formats. Nobody argues with the need for more storage.

Playstation 3 will have bluray, so a couple million people will have Bluray players in about a year. If not for that I wouldn't be thinking about compatibility too much.

I'd expect any new release to get a 7.1 mix (and hopefully TrueHD will catch on, as the idea of a lossless soundtrack appeals to me), but as for catalog titles I'm not so sure. Dolby Digital 5.1 was standard for new releases pretty quickly with DVD, while DD 2.0 and 5.1 were pretty jumbled up on catalog titles. If there was an EX or ES mix done, it might be cheap to carry over to a 7.1 mix (albeit with mono surround back), and there may be some marketing benefit to remixing the surrounds to get 7.1 for "special edition" releases.

I haven't seen any reliable projections of how many titles will get onto the formats over the first year or so. It's possible that experience with DVD will lead at least some studios to quickly go to day-and-date release for new material. What I wonder about is how many catalog titles will get proper HD transfers and what the learning curve will be in that regard.

I've more or less decided to pick up a PS3 some time next year (probably not in the first wave, but probably not too long thereafter) in part for the Blu-ray support, but I don't plan to buy much media until there's a pretty clear resolution to the format war. It's a much harder sell for me to move from DVD (especially with the Oppo and my HDTV getting along so well with my current library) to either format than the move from VHS to DVD was.

I would have loved Firewire too but hey I'll take HDMI. Sure HDMI is a moving target but I'd take it today just for the DVD-A and SACD support and the prospect of PCM hi-res 8-channel software down the road. I have no problem with the new audio codecs getting decoded in the players, if anything that will leave more horsepower in my PrePro to do other cool things like room correction EQ-ing. I believe HDMI is a viable solution today but I think people get hung up over the HD-DVD and the HDCP FUD.

I'm in no hurry to upgrade to HD-DVD but I'm starting to hear and see things that indicate Blu-Ray may get here faster then I originally thought. We should hear a lot more at CES in January. It's anyone’s guess though as to whether the new audio formats will be supported.

I’ve also been a big proponent of keeping analog video out of the PrePro but with HDMI I’ve done a 180 and wouldn’t mind having one super processor doing my audio and video. I wouldn’t even bother with analog video scaling just give me a PrePro with nothing but digital A/V inputs. Shot give me digital outputs too and I’ll have an all digital system with smart digitally powered speakers.

obie-fl: dream on! Before buying the 990 I tried to configure an HTPC as that one single box but it's not ready for prime time yet. I also looked for a processor with digital outs becase my DEQX accepts digital inputs--but no soap unless I was willing to spring for $10K for a Meridian that had no DVI or HDMI inputs. Digital speakers is obviously the way to go. Just a matter of time before they become the next "must have." But they're done done selling us all the analog stuff they can yet. The high efficiency high quality Class D amps that are emerging will eventually change all this.

In order to avoid that hangup you refer to, I settled on 7.1 analog. It sounds just fine. It will work fine with the new HD players too--they will all have to have decoders in them.

Blu-Ray will be here sooner than expected....we'll soon see.

Been there done that with the HTPC, agreed royal PIA.

One of the attractions to HDMI for me is the promise of Meridan style systems for us "normal" folks. Can't wait to see what kind of PrePro Outlaw can come up with a year or so from now.

Yea I hear you I went with the 990 for much the same reasons as you but I still hate the fact that if I want to actually process DVD-A or SACD I have to do an extra A/D. It is just the system engineer in me.

Ever wonder how many DA/AD steps, pre-amps and processors a sound track goes through before it reaches your ears? I don't like the extra digital conversions either but I am less than certain that they make a real world difference if done well. Same for up-sampling. In some cases users report unreal gains, while in others they report no difference.

What could be wrong with sending bitstreams to a processor which contains digital crossovers, phase compensation, inter-driver delay adjustment, and room equalization which is then output to each driver of each speaker where it is converted only once? Maybe even feeding a true digital amp. Nirvanna if you believe in digital processing. The sound of death I suppose for a vinyl record and tubeamp-phile.

But this is off thread and doesn't help Juan make a decision. Let's try another thought. There are lots of happy satisfied 990 users out there. Thus they have a good resale value. They also have a 30-day money back guarantee. How can you lose?

You can set your CD player up on two different inputs and set one for your CD-players analog out and one for the digital out. See if you can tell the difference and which DA is better. On my system the 990 decodes digital just about the same as my Denon 3910. I would be hard-pressed to tell you which I liked better. Thus I have no problem with 7.1 analog input for a while even if I believe like obie_fl that a purely digital data stream with the fewest possible DA/AD/DA conversions should give the most pristine reproduction.

Unfortunatly, in my humble opinion, Sony Corp has once again doomed both new formats to a certain eventual death, by remaining steadfast in their historical stand as a company that will NOT share profits with other companies, even if they have a better (or equal) technology.
Now, you can debate whether Blu-ray is better than HD-DVD (or vice-verse), but lets look at history:
Remember Quad? It was a great idea, but died (almost-I still quad) because everyone thought they had a better way of decoding and didn’t want to share the $$. To be able to listen to all the great records and tapes of that era, you would have had to own at least 3 (or more) decoders. Consumers said ‘No Way!’. Then, years later, we got ’surround sound’. What is that? Sounds just like a ’New Quad’ to me. So far so good. But wait. Here comes DVD-A and SACD. Once again Sony decides it will make only players that will play SACD and not DVD-A, because they don’t want you to buy DVD-A’s. Why? Because SACD is their baby. So today we have a small market for DVD-A and a small market for SACD, when we could have had a LARGE market for a single format, if the manufacturers had worked together and actually ADVERTISED this single format (when was the last time you saw ANY advertising for either format? Not a disc with SACD or DVD-A, but an add for a Hi-definition format? Never?) .
Blu-ray and HD-DVD will suffer the same fate as all the previous excellent formats, simply because the large corporations can’t (read: WON’T!) streamline it into a single choice for consumers, thus enabling us to buy a single player and a single format. Besides, how many different formats do you really need ANY movie or hi-res audio in?
Sorry to be the voice of bummer, but this is the reality of the new formats.
Rock on,

Lonster

As consumers, we vote with our pocketbooks. I wrote Sony and told them I would never buy another Sony product and I won't even though I want a Sony projector. Not only do they create format wars (you forgot VHS versus Betamax--and Betamax was much much better--I still have one that works great), they have zero customer service. Did you ever talk to a real person at Sony? I'm not sure any real people actually work at Sony. For all I know the company is run by the robots they make. All they have is webpages that don't have the answer you are looking for. They don't care about customers--they are in the business of selling not satisfying. It's really too bad that such great technology is stuck with a company with such lousy policies.

Invention means different. Compatibility is at least partially incompatible with invention. In fact, while incremental change is compatible, quantum change is incompatible (ever put a VHS tape in a DVD player?). There is a tough balancing act between compatibility and original creativity. This is only an issue when two or more divergent products compete for the same market niche. Consumers would like one format (I sure would) but the way free markets work is that we all get to vote on which format survives. If none does as you suggest, then it means none was sufficiently compelling to survive and succeed.

Not always.
Sony has a great product with SACD. They also 'own' alot of music and video titles. Yet because of the conflict with the competition (DVD-A), they have slowed production and releases of new and re-worked material almost to a halt. There is nothing wrong with SACD (or DVD-A for that matter), and no better technology to replace it right now either.
We loose because Sony says we loose.

Lonster
P.S. I love SACD and DVD-A. I also hate Sony for many of the reasons you quoted.

Audiobear,
I did just what you suggest and have my CD67SE both Analog and digital into my 990. And the compared the 2. They are very different to my ears anyway. As for better? Can't say, but different. On some CD's the analog sounds better, on others, the digital. BTW the analog is done with 990 in bypass.
My preference right now is either bypass or digital upsampling. I'll probably end up with the digital mostly for convenience (set it and forget it).

Fascinating. I never tried the analog-digital input comparison on more than a couple of CDs. I will try a couple of dozen next weekend and see if I find the same thing. I wonder why you have this result. Anybody else try this?

Yes, you need to bypass everything in both the player and the processor that could effect tone etc, and the volumes must be within 0.1 dB which is hard to do. Studies have shown that small volume differences are audible.

I use the dig-in on CDs and DVDs too. Obviously, DVD-A and SACD are passed through analog.

It would be interesting to hear from others what their impression is of analog versus digital input.

Thanks for the replies

I think I might just end up going with the 990. Much better solution overall. One thing that I read (not sure if its true or not) but I read that most of the movie studios are starting to back out of Blue Ray and HD DVD because they really only want a signal solution like the current DVD format. If this is true than either both formats will die quickly or become an add-on like SACD and DVD-A. I think that I will still be wating it out abit to see what goes on. But really I could just use the 7.1 inputs on the 990. Overall if both formats do become a standard than I think Im gonna wait until there is a universal player out that has both, might take a while but Im sure someone will try it, I heard that Samsung is actually trying it out now. So its gonna a be a big surprise for the future

Thanks again

Jay

Good choice. You will be amazed at how the low price of the 990 makes you underestimate what you will be getting.

You are right Juan, Samsung has announced that they will produce a dual format machine very soon. The studios are going in every direction on this but while they would prefer one format, they are divided over which format. Some back one and some back the other but recently some said they release in both formats. Retailers want one format, but dual disk machines will solve their problems too. If Samsung does produce a dual disk machine then the challenge remains if they can sell enough of the higher price disks for the format to survive. I'll still be waiting a while too before I buy one.

Some day Outlaw will offer a processor as a successor to the 990 with single digital connection. We can all buy one then.

At this point, seven of the eight studios are supporting Blu-ray and four of the eight are supporting HD-DVD (which means that three are backing both). As for how aggressive support for the two formats will be when it comes down to releasing software, I still haven't seen anything particularly solid.