Bad Bugs found, Please confirm

3 bug found that are serious in my books, I hope others can test these out to confirm if it:
1. Just my machine
2. All machine in a productions run
3. All machines
4. All machine, but it is Suppose to be that way,

If 4 above then Please explain you logic why it is suppose to be that way, and is not an actual bug.


MY firmware:
3.07.04


Please note that All of these tests Work as intended when the front speakers are set to SMALL,
All of the bugs appear when the fronts are set to LARGE.
Also note #1 below can only happen when using large speakers as the system does not allow small speakers with No sub

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1. Bass frequencies level increase inverse to X-over setting when set FRONTS to LARGE and Sub Set to NONE

Please also refer to post:
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000282


How to test
Get large front speakers capable of 30+hz


SPEAKER SIZE:
R/L: Large
Center: Large
Surr L/R: Large
Subwoofer: None

Now start up 2 channel CD and switch to STEREO MODE (actually, any mode except BYPASS will work)

Play music with good quantities low end bass 40-80HZ, Dance/trance/indust/other

Goto the:
SPEAKER X-OVER: menu setting
And change the
R/L xover settings. from 40 to 200 and back.
When the Xover setting is 200hz the bass is enhanced about 20% When set to 40Hz the bass is still boosted but at a lower level. As you progress from 40 -60-80-100-120 the bass level will be boosted more and more through the fronts speakers

This is a bug in the system, as the x-overs setting should not have any impact on the bass levels.

MY THEORY:
When a SUB is present and speakers are set to SMALL the Xover dictates what range of frequencies are routed to eh sub.

If the x-over is set to 200HZ then the spectrum from 0-200 are routed to the sub. when the xover is set to 40HZ Then Only the range 0-40HZ are set to the sub. Notice the 0-200 is much large then 0-40HZ


Thus When the sub is set to none, all the low frequencies that WOULD HAVE gone to the sub are sent Back to the front instead. (thats what the NO SUBWOOFER setting is suppose to do)
And the Higher the X-over settings the large the frequency range and thus the boost that should be going to the sub are re-routed back to the mains .


How it should work.
When fronts are set to large and sub to NONE, then should be No redirection of the Fronts Low end Back into the Mains. The X-over settings Should be disabled for the fronts When the Sub is set to NONE. Any other speaker set to small Should have its low frequencies (dictated by the x-over) routed to the mains.

Now im not sure HOW the bass is suppose to be redirected to other large speakers
AKA if the fronts are LARGE, and the center is small And the rears are LARGE, Will the Center low end (dictated by the x-over setting) be rerouted to Only the fronts? Or to all Large Speakers?
Same goes for the Rears, If the fronts are LARGE and center LARGE,and rears SMALL, Will the bass be redirected only to the fronts.. OR to ALL the large speakers (fronts + centers)


Easy fix, Change the code to Disable the x-over When fronts = LARGE and Sub=NONE.
IF the setup is suppose to redirect Any small speakers to ALL large speakers, Then change the code NOT to reinput It's own channel x-over settings (or disable the Xover for all Speaker set to LARGE)


NOTE: These settings should only disable the x-overs When the Sub=none. When the Sub = L/R + sub, Then the system should run as it is running now. and allow X-over settings to be set.
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2. When in stereo mode, The sub output is always Full range when fronts set to LARGE and Sub set to L/R +sub.

How to test.

Hook up the sub and disable and Built in Xovers.
Make fronts speakers LARGE

Play music.

You will notice that you are getting full range to the sub, No matter what the x-over settings are set for the front speakers.


How it should work.
IMO What should happen is that the fronts should receive Full range sound (as they are) and the Sub should only receive the frequencies lower then the x-over settings in the x-over menu.

AKA set the x-over to 60HZ and the sub outputs all frequencies 60HZ and lower to help reinforce the fronts Full range output (using the speaker natural cutoff slope for low frequencies)

======================================================================================
3. Bass not redirecting to sub when fronts set to LARGE and sub set to L/R + sub

Please read.
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000346

How to test.
Set fronts to LARGE Sub to L/R +SUB

Play a low frequency sounds Only through the fronts speakers, and see if you get any sub output.

the bug is that I get NO bass output.

I tested with DD 5.1 from the avia test discs

I use AVIA
Advance AVIA
Reference tones
WIDEBACND PINK NOISE , LEFT-FRONT Or Right Front


What Should happen.
From what i gather any low frequencies lower then the x-over setting for the front speakers should be redirected to the Sub, at the same time Full frequencies should be sent to the Fronts.

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3.5 Not really a bug, But a change that should be made.
change L/R + SUB to L/R +LFE


The L/R +SUB setting can be read to work a different way.
It can easily be confuse as :
Redirect all low frequencies (from the SMALL speakers) to the Sub ASWELL as the fronts L/R

Now here is and issue that might actually be happening, Perhaps this is they way it is suppose to happen....
So i pull out my RTA and plug the Front inputs into it, and turn front to LARGE and center to SMALL and sub to L/R +sub, Then I played Wideband Pink noise directly through the center channel only to see if the bass would be redirected to the L/R and the Sub. HMM the sub gets the redirection, but the Fronts Are Silent, and nothing on the RTA scope.

SO, the short of it is..

If the bass is suppose to be redirected from the front L/R to the sub (as well as Full frequencies to the Front L/R) then change the Sub setting to L/R + LFE

If the bass is suppose to be redirected from the SMALL speakers to the L/R front AND the Sub, Then keep the settings as L/R + Sub AND fix it so the system actually redirects the bass to the fronts L/R
======================================================================================


Ok that enough for now, I hope other can test their systems and post their Firmware versions.

If this affect all units I am surprise that they haven’t been found /posted yet, I guess everyone is just using the same setup at home with the same X-over settings.

I hope that these can be fixed ASAP, as it stands my 990 will be going back for refund, But I would rather these be fixed and I keep the unit. Oh well.. time to dust off my MC-1.


THANKS ALL FOR READING!!

I have a bad habit of writing longs posts, and boring people...

I have confirmed that the L/R + Sub mode does output signal to the subwoofer when fronts are set to “large”. The amount of bass redirected to the sub correctly increases as higher crossover points are chosen.

Crossover settings on “Large” Fronts correctly have no effect on signal when subwoofer is set to “none”. As noted above, crossover settings only impact signal when sub setting is L/R + Sub

The signal sent to the sub is this mode is not full range and is only bass below the crossover point. It adjusts properly as the crossover setting is modified.

Based on the above confirmations, I suspect there is something in your system configuration/wiring. Send us an email at information@outlawaudio.com with the exact wiring paths of your front speakers and subwoofer from processor to output. Please include all paths (bi-amp, bi-wire etc.)

Thanks,

Scott

Thks for the first reply,
Can i just get your unit instead of mine :p

I hope Others can also test these


I am assuming that you are working for outlaw.
If so..
I also hope that you pulled out a new unit from the same production run to test it. Using the AVIA disc. With my setup


If not, What firmware version are you running?
What is you setup/hookup.
(balance/unbalanced)
(Optical /coax)
What test disc /tones did you try?
If i match your setup then I will test with your methodology


My setup is simple

DVD HTPC optical out to Optical input 1 on Outlaw 990
DVD input on 990 set to use optical input 1

Unbalanced output from 990 to parasound 2205 Amp
Front L /R
Center
Rear L/ R

Sub output 1 goes to the Input of the SVS PCultra2 Sub


as for wiring 1 single pair wire to fronts/center/rear
Speakers are 4 x DeftTech BP-30
1 x CLR 3000

NOTE: the BP-30 are the 'No built in Sub' version. The sound of the BP-30 IS better IMHO

Sub has no other wires except Power cord.
That it, Very simple 5.1 setup.


As a test I can take Any output direct from the 990 and plug them into the BEhringer RTA to check the output levels and frequencies. Just like an Oscilloscope. With it I can see level and Frequencies of the Outputs. This is how i verifed the functions While the speakers are set to small, As i change the X-overs The output to the subs increase properly, and I can also watch the cut that the x-overs do on the speakars output.
Once i switch the fronts to LARGE Then all the above problems occur.


In short i really hope that it is just my unit, BUT others that have the same firmware/ production run are Also having the some if not all of the same issues as me.

Scott is the forum administrator as well as an Outlaw employee. Since it's the holiday weekend, I suspect he's basing his answer on either prior testing (which would have been a necessary part of the product development process), testing with a unit he already had on hand (since he may not have been able to get access to a unit from the current production run today), or both. Based on that, it sounds like there should be a solution to the difficulties you're having, even if it takes until early next week to get it fully sorted out. I look forward to hearing how it all shakes out - and if I get a chance this weekend I may try some of these tests on my unit, as well (spent the day attending to a slightly under-the-weather 9-month-old).

I ran these same tests on a couple of different units today, including one from which I believe is from the identical batch to yours (I'd be happy to confirm this for you on Monday).

Maybe I missed something, but where do you see other users having this same issue? I have not seen this confirmed anywhere. (If I recall corecctly the pboulang thread you refer to had some different variables that accounted for his findings). Of course, I wish to continue looking at this further with you. Please contact me directly at information@outlawaudio.com.

NetGuy,

I think you're on crack . If you set the channels to small, then you should be able to use a custom set crossover. If you set the channels to large it should mean they are 20Hz to 20kHz no matter what you set the crossover to and the different crossover points will have no effect. Also why would you want to have the low bass coming from both the sub and the mains? It will result in cancellations unless it is set up and tuned (proper phase, equalized, etc) very carefully. I always set all speakers to small, set the crossover to 80Hz and let the subs do their job. Any other settings have always led to a muddy front soundstage and total loss of clarity. If I am misunderstaning something, please let me know, but this seems like you want the 990 to do something it can't and you shouldn't.

HEhe , I was afraid of this.
1. Please understand I am not attacking Anyone.

2. I am trying to give as much information as possible in order to fix this ASAP.

3. I understand it is holiday weekend, But for us canucks it is not. I am not expecting this to be solved over the weekend, I am just trying to get a solutions/fix from all the other users on the forums. at least inform them.

4. It is not an issue to have speakers setting to small, Nor the reason Why somone would want these settings.

5. This has to do with the fact that the setting are not work as intended. It is my way of trying to work out any/all kinks to make sure a product is doing what it is suppose to be doing.

6. I really hope it is just my unit. and not a bad batch. Please also note that when i opened up my unit The manual bag was already opend and retaped. And the tape on it was also discoloured the same as tape that is getting old and was on it for some time. Also the Plastic covering on the front display was already peeled half off on the right hand side and reapplied crooked with bubbles and all, First impression it did not look like a new unit, looked like a returned unit that was repackaged... But this topic is not about this..

7. I really want the methology of all the tests with setup and references. Because If i find out that my unit is actually bad, I would like to make sure that the unit I get is working as it should before i get it. Because of the fear below.

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8. Here is my fear.
I find that My unit is DOA. So be it. I have to send my unit back and get another unit. Outlaw reships out a new unit VIA ups.
As the new unit arrive I am redinged 7% GST, and $80 brokerage fees. This is a problem.
I understand that Outlaw has no control on canadian brokerage and Taxes. This is why I happily paid the brokerage and GST when the unit came across the border the first time. I knew I had to pay this and I took it into consideration with the purchase.
I also understand that If i ever have to send the unit in for warranty that I would have to be dinged the brokerage fees every time it comes across the border.

The problem/fear that is have is regarding DOA items, I do not find it fair that i have to repay brokerage fees for something that was not deliverd in working order to begin with. If the unit was working as intended I have no problem paying the inital brokerage, But i do have a problem with 'repaying brokerage' for a DOA replacement, as I believe The shipping comapny should be responsible to ensure a full working unit to being with. AKA I pay '1 price' '1 brokerage fee' '1 tax' to get a working unit.

I had The same problem with my SVS ultra2, as it was DOA with a Xover switch that was broken. And SVS covered all shipping + brokerage for a new control unit + covered all the shipping back of the defective part. As they understood that it was DOA.

This is why i desperatly want to resolve this without reshipping the unit, as i do not know what issues i will have with outlaw regarding the re-brokerage fees.

BTW I hate canadian brokerage... and so does many other companies shipping to the canada.
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To scott
thks for testing it, but I want to see your test methology so i can try testing your way to see if i can get the samde results as from your tests. Are you using RTA/Scopes?

As after rereading The post from pboulang, I do not understand the differences.
Please explain what was resolved with this. As his setting/finding also correspond with mine.
What was his resolve? Please tell us so i can try it too?

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To Doug917

I Wish i was on crack, and the unit was actually working.


a. When set to small, everything works as intended. But this is not about the small settings.

b. I am aware of the cancellation/room acoustics issues, And my room is dampend and tuned. Theire are also many research about Multiple subwoofer creating a more linear sound across the entire room without all the big peaks and dips of a single subwoofer.

c. I have a Very picky ear, been tuning it for years. I would prefer the sub only handle 30HZ or less,

d. As for the '990 doing something it can and shouldn't' The outlaw Can do it, (As the test above from scott unit it can), and please dont debate the shouldn't part. I like what i like, and I can easiy balance it out with my setting to.

The point of reference imho is to have flatline for all frequencies for all volume levels. How this is acheive it should not matter. I know rooms /speakers are all different and react differently, That is the fun part, to find somethign that works, and makes me happy. If i can get a flatline 20-20 phased properly, And have the fronts to Full frequency, then I will do it. Subs are nice but they should be only used for SUB harmonics 40Hz or less (30 prefer with my speakers) IMHO.

The best thing about the 990 is it offers Both solutions. That Why i bought it. Alas my unit is not behaving like it should. And I hope to get it working as it should.

Nothing you are claiming requires sophisticated equipment to test or confirm (the sub is either on or its not etc.) In fact, using test disks often only complicate things further. For example are you sure the test noise you used had low frequency information to redirect in the first place? Many test signals are heavily bandwidth limited.

That said, let's try and keep things as simple as possible. Run a digital output from a standard CD or DVD player, not your HTPC. Put in a Red book CD. Play the disk with your 990 set to stereo, mains set to "large" and sub set to L/R + Sub. Under those exact conditions I get bass output from my sub on both units. As I move the crossover point higher (say a quick jump between 40 and 200 Hz), the difference is significant.

AS for the condition of your unit, please email me (I've included this in each of my previous posts) the serial number and the name the unit was purchased under. I'm sure this was a new unit if that's what you ordered. Customs has been known to open units, but I'll also fully examine this.

if you was on crack,you'd be on the way to the pawnshop with that 990

LOL if is was on crack I would not afford a 990 to begin with

Tests: ( i will expand when done doing more tests.)

Conclusions:
Analog
The bug is present and also bring up another fact that the Sub output is full range output.


Stand alone Dvd player, 2 model
Cheap 49.95 special
and toshiba sd-2750


Playing CD Bought from store Best of U2

Analog out to CD input of 990
990 set to 2 ch STEREO MODE


Front Speaker setting LARGE
Sub = L/R + SUB
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40 - 200 (any)
Front speaker = full frequency
SUB = Full frequency
NOTE Sub is always Full frequency no matter the X-over settings
Is this correct?

Sub = LFE Only
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40 - 200 (any)
Front speaker = full frequency
SUB = NOTHING

Sub = NONE
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40
Front speaker = full frequency
SUB = NOTHING
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 80
Front speaker = Noticable Boost in low bas regions from 0-80
SUB = NOTHING
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 200
Front speaker = Noticable Boost in low bas regions from 0-200
SUB = NOTHING
Toggling form 40 - 200 Greatly increse the bassoutput diffenece

Front Speaker setting SMALL
Sub = YES
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40
Front speaker = 40Hz +
SUB = Full Frequency (volcals easiy heard)
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 80
Front speaker = 80HZ
SUB = Full Frequency (volcals easiy heard)
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 200
Front speaker = 200Hz +
SUB = Full Frequency (volcals easiy heard)
NOTE Sub is always Full frequency no matter the X-over settings
Is this correct?