Bad Bugs found, Please confirm

3 bug found that are serious in my books, I hope others can test these out to confirm if it:
1. Just my machine
2. All machine in a productions run
3. All machines
4. All machine, but it is Suppose to be that way,

If 4 above then Please explain you logic why it is suppose to be that way, and is not an actual bug.


MY firmware:
3.07.04


Please note that All of these tests Work as intended when the front speakers are set to SMALL,
All of the bugs appear when the fronts are set to LARGE.
Also note #1 below can only happen when using large speakers as the system does not allow small speakers with No sub

=================================================================================
1. Bass frequencies level increase inverse to X-over setting when set FRONTS to LARGE and Sub Set to NONE

Please also refer to post:
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000282


How to test
Get large front speakers capable of 30+hz


SPEAKER SIZE:
R/L: Large
Center: Large
Surr L/R: Large
Subwoofer: None

Now start up 2 channel CD and switch to STEREO MODE (actually, any mode except BYPASS will work)

Play music with good quantities low end bass 40-80HZ, Dance/trance/indust/other

Goto the:
SPEAKER X-OVER: menu setting
And change the
R/L xover settings. from 40 to 200 and back.
When the Xover setting is 200hz the bass is enhanced about 20% When set to 40Hz the bass is still boosted but at a lower level. As you progress from 40 -60-80-100-120 the bass level will be boosted more and more through the fronts speakers

This is a bug in the system, as the x-overs setting should not have any impact on the bass levels.

MY THEORY:
When a SUB is present and speakers are set to SMALL the Xover dictates what range of frequencies are routed to eh sub.

If the x-over is set to 200HZ then the spectrum from 0-200 are routed to the sub. when the xover is set to 40HZ Then Only the range 0-40HZ are set to the sub. Notice the 0-200 is much large then 0-40HZ


Thus When the sub is set to none, all the low frequencies that WOULD HAVE gone to the sub are sent Back to the front instead. (thats what the NO SUBWOOFER setting is suppose to do)
And the Higher the X-over settings the large the frequency range and thus the boost that should be going to the sub are re-routed back to the mains .


How it should work.
When fronts are set to large and sub to NONE, then should be No redirection of the Fronts Low end Back into the Mains. The X-over settings Should be disabled for the fronts When the Sub is set to NONE. Any other speaker set to small Should have its low frequencies (dictated by the x-over) routed to the mains.

Now im not sure HOW the bass is suppose to be redirected to other large speakers
AKA if the fronts are LARGE, and the center is small And the rears are LARGE, Will the Center low end (dictated by the x-over setting) be rerouted to Only the fronts? Or to all Large Speakers?
Same goes for the Rears, If the fronts are LARGE and center LARGE,and rears SMALL, Will the bass be redirected only to the fronts.. OR to ALL the large speakers (fronts + centers)


Easy fix, Change the code to Disable the x-over When fronts = LARGE and Sub=NONE.
IF the setup is suppose to redirect Any small speakers to ALL large speakers, Then change the code NOT to reinput It's own channel x-over settings (or disable the Xover for all Speaker set to LARGE)


NOTE: These settings should only disable the x-overs When the Sub=none. When the Sub = L/R + sub, Then the system should run as it is running now. and allow X-over settings to be set.
======================================================================================
2. When in stereo mode, The sub output is always Full range when fronts set to LARGE and Sub set to L/R +sub.

How to test.

Hook up the sub and disable and Built in Xovers.
Make fronts speakers LARGE

Play music.

You will notice that you are getting full range to the sub, No matter what the x-over settings are set for the front speakers.


How it should work.
IMO What should happen is that the fronts should receive Full range sound (as they are) and the Sub should only receive the frequencies lower then the x-over settings in the x-over menu.

AKA set the x-over to 60HZ and the sub outputs all frequencies 60HZ and lower to help reinforce the fronts Full range output (using the speaker natural cutoff slope for low frequencies)

======================================================================================
3. Bass not redirecting to sub when fronts set to LARGE and sub set to L/R + sub

Please read.
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000346

How to test.
Set fronts to LARGE Sub to L/R +SUB

Play a low frequency sounds Only through the fronts speakers, and see if you get any sub output.

the bug is that I get NO bass output.

I tested with DD 5.1 from the avia test discs

I use AVIA
Advance AVIA
Reference tones
WIDEBACND PINK NOISE , LEFT-FRONT Or Right Front


What Should happen.
From what i gather any low frequencies lower then the x-over setting for the front speakers should be redirected to the Sub, at the same time Full frequencies should be sent to the Fronts.

=================================================================================
3.5 Not really a bug, But a change that should be made.
change L/R + SUB to L/R +LFE


The L/R +SUB setting can be read to work a different way.
It can easily be confuse as :
Redirect all low frequencies (from the SMALL speakers) to the Sub ASWELL as the fronts L/R

Now here is and issue that might actually be happening, Perhaps this is they way it is suppose to happen....
So i pull out my RTA and plug the Front inputs into it, and turn front to LARGE and center to SMALL and sub to L/R +sub, Then I played Wideband Pink noise directly through the center channel only to see if the bass would be redirected to the L/R and the Sub. HMM the sub gets the redirection, but the Fronts Are Silent, and nothing on the RTA scope.

SO, the short of it is..

If the bass is suppose to be redirected from the front L/R to the sub (as well as Full frequencies to the Front L/R) then change the Sub setting to L/R + LFE

If the bass is suppose to be redirected from the SMALL speakers to the L/R front AND the Sub, Then keep the settings as L/R + Sub AND fix it so the system actually redirects the bass to the fronts L/R
======================================================================================


Ok that enough for now, I hope other can test their systems and post their Firmware versions.

If this affect all units I am surprise that they haven’t been found /posted yet, I guess everyone is just using the same setup at home with the same X-over settings.

I hope that these can be fixed ASAP, as it stands my 990 will be going back for refund, But I would rather these be fixed and I keep the unit. Oh well.. time to dust off my MC-1.


THANKS ALL FOR READING!!

I have a bad habit of writing longs posts, and boring people...

I have confirmed that the L/R + Sub mode does output signal to the subwoofer when fronts are set to “large”. The amount of bass redirected to the sub correctly increases as higher crossover points are chosen.

Crossover settings on “Large” Fronts correctly have no effect on signal when subwoofer is set to “none”. As noted above, crossover settings only impact signal when sub setting is L/R + Sub

The signal sent to the sub is this mode is not full range and is only bass below the crossover point. It adjusts properly as the crossover setting is modified.

Based on the above confirmations, I suspect there is something in your system configuration/wiring. Send us an email at information@outlawaudio.com with the exact wiring paths of your front speakers and subwoofer from processor to output. Please include all paths (bi-amp, bi-wire etc.)

Thanks,

Scott

Thks for the first reply,
Can i just get your unit instead of mine :p

I hope Others can also test these


I am assuming that you are working for outlaw.
If so..
I also hope that you pulled out a new unit from the same production run to test it. Using the AVIA disc. With my setup


If not, What firmware version are you running?
What is you setup/hookup.
(balance/unbalanced)
(Optical /coax)
What test disc /tones did you try?
If i match your setup then I will test with your methodology


My setup is simple

DVD HTPC optical out to Optical input 1 on Outlaw 990
DVD input on 990 set to use optical input 1

Unbalanced output from 990 to parasound 2205 Amp
Front L /R
Center
Rear L/ R

Sub output 1 goes to the Input of the SVS PCultra2 Sub


as for wiring 1 single pair wire to fronts/center/rear
Speakers are 4 x DeftTech BP-30
1 x CLR 3000

NOTE: the BP-30 are the 'No built in Sub' version. The sound of the BP-30 IS better IMHO

Sub has no other wires except Power cord.
That it, Very simple 5.1 setup.


As a test I can take Any output direct from the 990 and plug them into the BEhringer RTA to check the output levels and frequencies. Just like an Oscilloscope. With it I can see level and Frequencies of the Outputs. This is how i verifed the functions While the speakers are set to small, As i change the X-overs The output to the subs increase properly, and I can also watch the cut that the x-overs do on the speakars output.
Once i switch the fronts to LARGE Then all the above problems occur.


In short i really hope that it is just my unit, BUT others that have the same firmware/ production run are Also having the some if not all of the same issues as me.

Scott is the forum administrator as well as an Outlaw employee. Since it's the holiday weekend, I suspect he's basing his answer on either prior testing (which would have been a necessary part of the product development process), testing with a unit he already had on hand (since he may not have been able to get access to a unit from the current production run today), or both. Based on that, it sounds like there should be a solution to the difficulties you're having, even if it takes until early next week to get it fully sorted out. I look forward to hearing how it all shakes out - and if I get a chance this weekend I may try some of these tests on my unit, as well (spent the day attending to a slightly under-the-weather 9-month-old).

I ran these same tests on a couple of different units today, including one from which I believe is from the identical batch to yours (I'd be happy to confirm this for you on Monday).

Maybe I missed something, but where do you see other users having this same issue? I have not seen this confirmed anywhere. (If I recall corecctly the pboulang thread you refer to had some different variables that accounted for his findings). Of course, I wish to continue looking at this further with you. Please contact me directly at information@outlawaudio.com.

NetGuy,

I think you're on crack . If you set the channels to small, then you should be able to use a custom set crossover. If you set the channels to large it should mean they are 20Hz to 20kHz no matter what you set the crossover to and the different crossover points will have no effect. Also why would you want to have the low bass coming from both the sub and the mains? It will result in cancellations unless it is set up and tuned (proper phase, equalized, etc) very carefully. I always set all speakers to small, set the crossover to 80Hz and let the subs do their job. Any other settings have always led to a muddy front soundstage and total loss of clarity. If I am misunderstaning something, please let me know, but this seems like you want the 990 to do something it can't and you shouldn't.

HEhe , I was afraid of this.
1. Please understand I am not attacking Anyone.

2. I am trying to give as much information as possible in order to fix this ASAP.

3. I understand it is holiday weekend, But for us canucks it is not. I am not expecting this to be solved over the weekend, I am just trying to get a solutions/fix from all the other users on the forums. at least inform them.

4. It is not an issue to have speakers setting to small, Nor the reason Why somone would want these settings.

5. This has to do with the fact that the setting are not work as intended. It is my way of trying to work out any/all kinks to make sure a product is doing what it is suppose to be doing.

6. I really hope it is just my unit. and not a bad batch. Please also note that when i opened up my unit The manual bag was already opend and retaped. And the tape on it was also discoloured the same as tape that is getting old and was on it for some time. Also the Plastic covering on the front display was already peeled half off on the right hand side and reapplied crooked with bubbles and all, First impression it did not look like a new unit, looked like a returned unit that was repackaged... But this topic is not about this..

7. I really want the methology of all the tests with setup and references. Because If i find out that my unit is actually bad, I would like to make sure that the unit I get is working as it should before i get it. Because of the fear below.

-------------------------------------
8. Here is my fear.
I find that My unit is DOA. So be it. I have to send my unit back and get another unit. Outlaw reships out a new unit VIA ups.
As the new unit arrive I am redinged 7% GST, and $80 brokerage fees. This is a problem.
I understand that Outlaw has no control on canadian brokerage and Taxes. This is why I happily paid the brokerage and GST when the unit came across the border the first time. I knew I had to pay this and I took it into consideration with the purchase.
I also understand that If i ever have to send the unit in for warranty that I would have to be dinged the brokerage fees every time it comes across the border.

The problem/fear that is have is regarding DOA items, I do not find it fair that i have to repay brokerage fees for something that was not deliverd in working order to begin with. If the unit was working as intended I have no problem paying the inital brokerage, But i do have a problem with 'repaying brokerage' for a DOA replacement, as I believe The shipping comapny should be responsible to ensure a full working unit to being with. AKA I pay '1 price' '1 brokerage fee' '1 tax' to get a working unit.

I had The same problem with my SVS ultra2, as it was DOA with a Xover switch that was broken. And SVS covered all shipping + brokerage for a new control unit + covered all the shipping back of the defective part. As they understood that it was DOA.

This is why i desperatly want to resolve this without reshipping the unit, as i do not know what issues i will have with outlaw regarding the re-brokerage fees.

BTW I hate canadian brokerage... and so does many other companies shipping to the canada.
------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------------
To scott
thks for testing it, but I want to see your test methology so i can try testing your way to see if i can get the samde results as from your tests. Are you using RTA/Scopes?

As after rereading The post from pboulang, I do not understand the differences.
Please explain what was resolved with this. As his setting/finding also correspond with mine.
What was his resolve? Please tell us so i can try it too?

-------------------------------------------------
To Doug917

I Wish i was on crack, and the unit was actually working.


a. When set to small, everything works as intended. But this is not about the small settings.

b. I am aware of the cancellation/room acoustics issues, And my room is dampend and tuned. Theire are also many research about Multiple subwoofer creating a more linear sound across the entire room without all the big peaks and dips of a single subwoofer.

c. I have a Very picky ear, been tuning it for years. I would prefer the sub only handle 30HZ or less,

d. As for the '990 doing something it can and shouldn't' The outlaw Can do it, (As the test above from scott unit it can), and please dont debate the shouldn't part. I like what i like, and I can easiy balance it out with my setting to.

The point of reference imho is to have flatline for all frequencies for all volume levels. How this is acheive it should not matter. I know rooms /speakers are all different and react differently, That is the fun part, to find somethign that works, and makes me happy. If i can get a flatline 20-20 phased properly, And have the fronts to Full frequency, then I will do it. Subs are nice but they should be only used for SUB harmonics 40Hz or less (30 prefer with my speakers) IMHO.

The best thing about the 990 is it offers Both solutions. That Why i bought it. Alas my unit is not behaving like it should. And I hope to get it working as it should.

Nothing you are claiming requires sophisticated equipment to test or confirm (the sub is either on or its not etc.) In fact, using test disks often only complicate things further. For example are you sure the test noise you used had low frequency information to redirect in the first place? Many test signals are heavily bandwidth limited.

That said, let's try and keep things as simple as possible. Run a digital output from a standard CD or DVD player, not your HTPC. Put in a Red book CD. Play the disk with your 990 set to stereo, mains set to "large" and sub set to L/R + Sub. Under those exact conditions I get bass output from my sub on both units. As I move the crossover point higher (say a quick jump between 40 and 200 Hz), the difference is significant.

AS for the condition of your unit, please email me (I've included this in each of my previous posts) the serial number and the name the unit was purchased under. I'm sure this was a new unit if that's what you ordered. Customs has been known to open units, but I'll also fully examine this.

if you was on crack,you'd be on the way to the pawnshop with that 990

LOL if is was on crack I would not afford a 990 to begin with

Tests: ( i will expand when done doing more tests.)

Conclusions:
Analog
The bug is present and also bring up another fact that the Sub output is full range output.


Stand alone Dvd player, 2 model
Cheap 49.95 special
and toshiba sd-2750


Playing CD Bought from store Best of U2

Analog out to CD input of 990
990 set to 2 ch STEREO MODE


Front Speaker setting LARGE
Sub = L/R + SUB
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40 - 200 (any)
Front speaker = full frequency
SUB = Full frequency
NOTE Sub is always Full frequency no matter the X-over settings
Is this correct?

Sub = LFE Only
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40 - 200 (any)
Front speaker = full frequency
SUB = NOTHING

Sub = NONE
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40
Front speaker = full frequency
SUB = NOTHING
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 80
Front speaker = Noticable Boost in low bas regions from 0-80
SUB = NOTHING
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 200
Front speaker = Noticable Boost in low bas regions from 0-200
SUB = NOTHING
Toggling form 40 - 200 Greatly increse the bassoutput diffenece

Front Speaker setting SMALL
Sub = YES
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40
Front speaker = 40Hz +
SUB = Full Frequency (volcals easiy heard)
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 80
Front speaker = 80HZ
SUB = Full Frequency (volcals easiy heard)
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 200
Front speaker = 200Hz +
SUB = Full Frequency (volcals easiy heard)
NOTE Sub is always Full frequency no matter the X-over settings
Is this correct?

NetGuy, you are clearly a knowledgeable user, and you are clearly experiencing some difficulties. Having hung around this forum (and a few others) for some years now, I've noticed that bass management is the most common source of confusion, frustration, and debate, so even when folks have a solid understanding it can be hard to untangle the issue (creating its own brand of confusion). No crack required...

i thought about that after the fact.

i can't help with the problem as i own a 1050,but i will say this:when i fried my sub amp,for awhile i used a technics reciever to power it.i had to run my teac eq with it to get a bit of gain.the eq had a spectrum on it,granted 'just a toy' as far as spectrums go,but it showed signal sloping off to 'nothing' around 2-4k.

i asked the question,i think in 1050 section,if this was normal.i don't think i ever got an answer

Gonk; This is why i have to write out as much info and test as possible to try to solve this ASAP. Since i am new at the forums I get the feeling that everyone just regards me as a newbie. Even after i try to clearly explain my setup/test methods I still get questions on something i already answered. But i am expecting this. As sometime i write long winded posts that are hard for people to digest.

ALSO a note to scott The avia test disc wideband test tone Is Full frequency from 20-20Khz, This is proved from my Scope of the inputs. And that fact that the same tones are used for the SMALL setting and Everything works well with SMALL.

I am suprise that you all are not familar with the AVIA test dvd on a technical (specification) basis.
Anyhow i will reference my test in a non Scoped fashion as well. (aka the sound )

The above was Analog tests
I finished my DIGITAL Tests the results are below

I found issues with this as well.
But some things are differn't then the analog.
Which tell me there is indeed issuses with the 990.

To Others out there please test my test and post your results.

Here are the results.

Conclusions:
Digital
The Sub is properly x-overed, but the Bug about the bass boost when the fronts are set to LARGE is still there.

The funny thing is that Even in BYPASS mode the bug is still present .


Stand alone Dvd player, 2 models
Cheap 49.95 special..... HAHA did not work at all
and toshiba sd-2750 Worked


Playing CD Bought from store Best of U2

DIGITAL OUT to CD optical 1 input of 990
990 set to 2 ch STEREO MODE


FRONT SPEAKER SETTINGS: LARGE

Sub = L/R + SUB

X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40 - 200 (any)
Front speaker output = full frequency
SUB output = Works perfectely, X-over controls x-over points
NOTE All seems to work here
-
Sub = LFE Only
X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40 - 200 (any)
Front speaker output = full frequency
SUB output = There is Output? Looks like a 80Hz X-over on the scope

NOTE: no matter what X-over i set, The Bass output stays the same level and ~80Hz on the scope.
-
Question: Why is their sub output at all? Is this normal? How is the unit getting LFE If the front set to large? After testing I pinpointed it down to the SUrr L/R mode setting. When the SURR is set to LARGE I get no sub output, When set to Small I get Sub output.
When i get sub out (surr = large) I Tried changing the X-over setting for all the Center/ Front and SUrround To no avail, ( i thought maybe the surr x-over would dictate the x-over im seeing the in scope)
In the end I could not change the 80HZ xover to the sub out no matter what x-over setting i change..

The only thing is When i set the Surr to Small, I get Sub output. and Surr = large i get no Sub.

YET another isuue: I even tried BYPASS(instead of STEREO) mode and the results are the same.

Why Am i even get output to the sub In stereo mode? Or even in bypass mode?
The only time i should be getting sub output in STEREO is when i set Front speakers to small...


Sub = NONE

X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40
Front speaker output = full frequency
SUB output = NOTHING

X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 80
Front speaker output = Noticable Boost in low bass regions from 0-80
SUB output = NOTHING

X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 200
Front speaker output = Noticable Boost in low bass regions from 0-200
SUB output = NOTHING

Toggling form 40 - 200 Greatly increase the bass output difference

Once again this is faulty, I should not be getting Bass boost invertly to the x-over

AS a Test, I tried in BYPASS MODE, and Once again I got bass boost (same as stereo)

I thought bypass gave a straight path to the amp section without any bass management?


FRONT SPEAKER SETTINGS: SMALL
Sub = YES (only option available)

X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 40
Front speaker output = 40Hz +
SUB output = 0-40HZ as expected

X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 80
Front speaker output = 80HZ
SUB output = 0-80HZ as Expected (vocals partially heard)

X-over settings for FRONT L/R = 200
Front speaker output = 200Hz +
SUB output = 0-200 (vocals easily heard)

NOT: Looks like it is working here as intended

newbie or not,at one point we were all newbies.

doesn't matter,you have a problem,the saloon will help.

at least join me for a drink. (i'll buy)

As you can tell from my original thread, this was never addressed, and I suspect gentle readers thought I was not setting things up correctly. It wasn't a big enough issue for me to even call up outlaw..

However, my problem wasn't really one that effected me too much, as I have since added a sub to the mix and don't go in to Fronts=Large/sub=none mode at all now.

It looks like most of your issues revolve around having a sub in play, yet also setting fronts to LARGE. My fronts go down to 38Hz, and since the rule of thumb is to be able to reach down an octave below crossover, I have a crossover set to 80 and speakers set to small.

Are you running fronts that can go so low that it makes sense to have the setting as LR + LFE (I like your term better)?

Not trying to say there ISN'T a bug, just that it is a non-ordinary setup that I can understand why there may be QA issues (I can only confirm #1 in your post at this time.) My personal resolution is that I never need to run in that configuration, and if I did, I would choose what sounds best.

Good luck, if you would like to contact me personally, feel free to email me at pboulang@gmail.com and I will take the time to to to recreate.confirm anything you want. You are not alone, at least one person in this world will confirm your 'bug'


--paul

My bad, I found where you specify your fronts. BP 30 isn't on their website, but is referenced in a PDF.. 18-30kHz... wow. I'd classify that as large.

--paul

I noticed some odd crossover function as well with the fronts set to large. I didn't bother to detail much about it since I went with setting fronts to small.

With fronts set to large and sub = L+R/Sub, if you "roll over" the crossover setting from the high setting of 200Hz to the lowest setting the bass is turned up, and that's not what I would expect.

But, if you then bump up the crossover setting to the next highest freq. and then bump it back down to the lowest setting, it works as you would expect and the bass is not enhanced.

What I mean by "rollover" is that you simply push the up arrow button and cause the 990 to rollover from the highest crossover setting to the lowest.

I figured this was a software glitch, just not one to bothersome to me.

Hope that helps..

Good observation, Eric. If there is a bug with cycling back around from one end of the scale to the other, it would be a potentially simple software fix to restrict adjustment so that you can't go from 200 to 40 or from 40 to 200...

Thks for the input eric and others.

Eric please clarify if the bass is turned up in the sub? Or out the mains?

As i see it, With
front = large
and sub = L+R/Sub

When you go from 40-200HZ the bass level Should go up, (in the subwoofer that is) That is a sign of a working system.

The reason being is that, When sub set to (L/R + Sub) The output from the fronts are suppose to be redirected to the sub, and the higher the X-over the more that is redirected to the sub.

Eric can you please do the setting with the x-over with the SUB set to NONE?

Also if you can repeat your test and find where the bass is being increased. either the fronts/ the sub / or both. And easy test is to unplug/disconnect the sub and repeast your tests. That will isolate the fronts to see if the boost is in the fronts, Then do the same with the Fronts, to see if it increase in the sub outputs.

Pehaps there is an issue here as well.

Netguy,

I had a chance to red the manual for the 990 in its entirity tonight and now see more of where you were going. Sorry I didn't really understand what you were doing and the capabilities of the processor until my reading tonight. Good luck to ya!

Q) When you go from 40-200HZ the bass level Should go up, (in the subwoofer that is) That is a sign of a working system.
A) Yes, and that's the opposite of what I was trying to say. Forget the sub, the bass increases in the mains rolling over from 200 to 40 when set to L/R+Sub. This increase can then be defeated by simply selecting the next higher freq. then returning to 40hz.

The bad news, I had something else set different and can not currently reproduce this issue.

Below comments apply only when mains = LARGE. I didn't try SMALL.

I did try setting the sub = none, and the sub still played. It acts something like the L+R/Sub mode. I could easily tell as I increased the cross over, that higher freqs were making their way to the sub. The sub didn't get louder, it played a wider freq. range as the cross over freq. was increased. The mains worked as expected with no response changes.

That is not what you found. But ---

The good news, I figured out you missed a step in reproducing your issue, and there is a way to make it work correctly if your are only running mains. The sub still gets a signal like I described above.

What I found that's critically important to reproduce your issue is how you select sub=none. IF YOU MOVE FROM L/R+Sub mode TO none, your issue occurs. If you you move from LFE ONLY to NONE your issue does not occur.

My theory is, if you move from LFE ONLY to NONE your problem will go away. But, the sub will still get a signal.

I think what is happening is that the L+R signal that should be going to the sub, is incorrectly routed to the mains when moving from L/R+Sub to none.

I would guess the signal was supposed to get turned off. But, it's not - hence the sub output working when set to none, and/or the "remixing" depending upon the last sub-setting selected prior to NONE.

I must say I am happy with the 990. It's got a great sound, and the noise floor is extreamly low.

Hope that helps...

Good catch.

I verified your findings, and perhaps found the reason why.

When toggling through the sub options i noticed:

that pressing the remote LEft button toggles from none - L/R + sub - LFE -none

Heres the bug
go from LFE-> NONE, THEN press the Right arrow button and it jumps to L/R + sub.

IT SHOULD goto LFE before toggling to L/R +sub. Perhaps this issues 'confuses' the unit. Definitely a confirmed bug.

I got my hopes up, and that it would solve the No bass redirection in L/R + sub, But alas, like you said, it did not help.

Also a note I tried from LFE - none ,and it did fix the Fronts double bass issue, But i did Not have any output to the sub. I am running is Stereo Mode, and all speakers set to large. (Digital Signal used)

Perhaps you still got redirection to the sub from a 'small' speakers setting. PERhaps to do with the bug i found that when in stereo (Sub = LFE Only test above in digital) , and the Sides surr set to SMALL that there was bass injected into the system. (even though it should be STEREO/ or BYPASS)

I reported this bug on the LARGE and sub when I got my unit, which was in the first shipment, pre ordered etc. I am presently waiting for a fix that they say they are working on. It has been so long I can't even remember the details but I can remember this. The issue is one of double bass, low frequencies going to both the sub and the fronts. There are some modes where the bug is influenced by the surround mode. Works OK in 7 channel but not in 5 channel. Definatley a bug and as I understand it, they are working on it. You can look for my old posts for the details.

Any word on this from Outlaw support, perhaps a comittment to fix it ? I am sure the many owners and potential new customers will be impressed to see the 5 star support at work.

Yes, Eric we are looking at all of the issues brought up by TheNetGuy and are taking this very seriously. Hang in there as answers are coming.

Still have not got any confirmations, Outlaw has extended my 'trail' period for 1 more month. A nice gesture And reinforces Outlaws commitment towards keeping customers happy.

They say they are working on it, and i hope to get a confirmation/denial of the issues ASAP.

Once we get the list, then we can work on the solutions.

Nice of them to extend your trial period - suggests that they are working on answer and/or a firmware update.

People have been talking about this firmware update for quite some time. I bought my 990 back in June and there was already some discussion about firmware updates. It's now December and no update has materialised (yet). 8-)

Cheers,

Hi,
As a potential new customer I am intesested in seeing how this pans out. The flexibility afforded by the 990's bass management system is one of the main points of interest for me.
Any updates?
Santa

For what it is worth here is where I am at on my 990
1) It is buggy, particurally in the bass management.
2) They are working on it and will come out with a software update eventually.
3) If you set the unit up so that it doesn't activate the bugs, it soulds fantastic. (ie. Set the fronts to small with a low crossover and use manual calibration with an external meeter, particurally if you have a Sunfire sub)

TheNetGuy,

Welcome to the Saloon!

As one of the occasional Canucks around here, I have posted at length regarding the trials and tribulations of cross-border buying.

FYI the brokerage fees are exorbitantly high when you receive something shipped via UPS Ground. In comparison, USPS/Canada Post rings in at a flat $5.00 for brokerage - regardless of the shipment's value. Unfortuantely, at least the last time I checked, Outlaw insists on shipping via UPS Ground only.

Regarding returned items under warranty: even if you have not bought the item again, when it's returned to you via UPS, they will ding you for brokerage fees again - even though no duties or taxes are due. This is one of the reasons why I feel that UPS sucks royally.

Luckily, the fine print in your warranty likely says (at least mine does for my ICBM and 950 units) that while you must cover the cost to return a unit to Outlaw, they are responsible for covering the shipping costs back to you. UPS' brokerage fees are a form of shipping cost (for example there are none with UPS Air) so Outlaw is responsible. When my 950 was returned for repairs, those great folks at Outlaw cut me a cheque for all of the brokerage fees that I had to pay when the unit came back.

PM me your email address and I'll send you a copy of my "Border Tips" document.

Regards.

Jeff Mackwood

Those Canadians living near the appropriate UPS customs brokerage office may be able to avoid the UPS brokerage charge by clearing the shipment yourselves using this technique:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2324067&postcount=3

I only stumbled across this today, so I can't say from personal experience how effective it is. A google search turns up more than one person who claims to have used this method successfully.

Unfort UPS brokerage is way too far from edmonton, alberta Canada.

Anyhow, recently Scott has made an 'announcement' as such about bugs,
But Once again There is no confirmations nor denials about the actual bugs.
Just political talk.

What I need is confirmation that the bug exists and they ARE or ARE NOT trying to resolve it.


The reason for this is I want to know if it is worthwhile to Wait for a patch or not, Because IF they are working on a patch, and they are not going to resolve my issues, then the units go back.


Just buy saying 'we are working on it' does not instill confidence to me. They have nothing to account for, as they already have my money. I have seen too many time this 'delay' approach and after time nothing happens.


Or I get the 'we didnt fix that because it is working as intended', even though the manual say indifernt.

OR worse yet, 'we didnt fix that to co-orespond with the manual, so we deleted that option, and changed the manual.


I bought the unit for what it is suppose to do now.


If outlaw is truly serious about fixing these bugs, then they should have no problems backing their words with tangability.

Then if they actually do fix the bugs, then all is AOK.
ut if they daddle, or dont fix em, We have some tangable gains to compensate us for the units current status. Not what it might not do later.

Scott I have updated my trouble ticket with options.

I am going to make a Point form ASAP That is easy to answer ASAP, and edit this post/repost in this thread, that i would like to see filled in.

It will be like a multiple select sheet.

Outlaw simple has to understand that what we are looking for is just a confirmation of the bugs, and If they have any plans on trying to fix that specific bug.

Actually I just need the confirmation of the bug, so that I know my unit is not faulty compared to the rest of the units.

I cannot comprehand Why Oh why I cannot get a simple YES or NO whether my unit is unique, Or the same issues are affecting:

a. All the units,
b. only the newer units.
c. Only my unit

I REALLY REALLY cannot understand WHY i cant get an answer for this.

Under the assumption that the people at Outlaws are smart individuals,
They probably already understand what i am looking for, But for some reason they are 'tipy toeing around the direct answer' Which raises a concern why we are not getting the answers. This leads me to believe their is something amiss, And normally this is because it is bad.

Since we are on the outlaw forums, I am afraid of hitting a wrong chord and getting the post deleted.

Huh?. You know.... I think you should just send your 990 back.

HUH? Where have you seen that here? They have acknowledged that they are working on a patch, and why don't you think they will deliver? Look at the issues with the "white video flash" for their other product and you will see that a patch was promised and then delivered.

When did Outlaw make a promise and not deliver?


THe post is here, as is everything else about issues with their products. What makes you think it would be deleted?

Netguy,

If I were you, I'd just return the product and get something that makes you happy. Life's too short.

As for "naughty" posts being deleted, I don't think I've seen or heard of that being done. I periodically bitch about the oft mentioned firmware fixes for the 990 and those posts are still there. 8-)

Given the rather lengthy span of time since I first heard about a firmware update (during the summer), I suspect it isn't high on the Outlaw priority list or that they've encountered a snag with the software or perhaps even a hardware-related issue with the Sherwood underpinnings. It's hard to say what the actual issue is since only Outlaw knows for sure and they're not sharing that information.

My overall impression with Outlaw's service has been positive, but I do share your frustration in this particular instance.

Cheers,

There is a clear interest here in the forum in getting some sort of official report on the exact issues identified with bass management, as well as of course an interest in finding out the exact status of a patch. The specifics on the patch may not be forthcoming (I do not expect them to offer any firm dates unless they have code they trust in hand), but Outlaw has acknowledged that there are issues that must be addressed. A more detailed announcement may be in order in light of the recent discussions here.

The only instances where I have seen Outlaw remove posts from this forum have been when the content was severely offensive - either a slur perceived to insult an entire group of people or a nasty personal attack. They've always let forum members say whatever they want to about Outlaw equipment, for better or for worse. Your post is safe.

I’m not in your shoes, NetGuy, so I don’t have your choice to make. Nor would I tell you what choice to make. My two cents: from the vantage point of watching Outlaw for a few years now and owning three of their products, I would say that they will do what it takes to offer excellent gear at great prices, including any necessary software/firmware revisions through to hardware retrofits. These corrections may not be the most convenient for everyone, but at the figurative ‘end of the day,’ equipment problems have always been worked out and the Outlaw performance-for-price advantage is maintained.

Gonk hit it on the head, I need confirmation.

Many greate poster here, Thks for the great responses.


BUt for the few trolls.
I am sorry, no matter how formal I try to be I get flak from certain people.

Once again i will put this into perspective, I am fed up and going to spit it out in as basic form as possible to try to teach the certain people on this site. For all other that are good on the site, please ignore the rants below.


1. I need to know if my unit is the only one affected by these bugs, AKA DOA
This is why i need confirmation of these bugs from outlaw.

2. IF i find out that these bugs are only affecting my unit And it is DOA, then I will get another unit shipped to me.

3. IF i find out that it affects multiple units the same, I will keep the unit, then i can rely on outlaw to come up with a patch to fix it in the near future.
--------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------
I really do not understand Why people read into my posts. IT IS SIMPLE. Read the above 3 points.
That is all this is about. SIMPLE.

As of yet I have NOT been able to get any confirmation on the above posted bugs.

I have been told that engineers have been working on them, But I have not heard a response yet.

I really do not know how it is taking soo long to simply plug in the unit and test them out to confirm them or deny them.

I am NOT looking for a solution right now, I am looking for a confirmation to find out if my unit is unique and DOA.


=============================================================


RANT ON
I do not understand why i am getting so much flak from certain induviduals on this site. I guess they just don’t understand simple requests, nor understand the long winded posts about me explaining WHY i make the requests. I guess there is no hope in teaching these people to begin with.
---------------------------------------

As for the post about 'just return it' This is the worse thing that could happen for PR. Everyone loses. I lose 250 bucks for the brokerage + shipping (unless they cover brokerage) And they lose a customer that is brand loyal. All of this because i cannot get a confirmation tha tthe bugs above are affecting others or just my unit. I do not wnat to spend 250 buck because of other ignorance.

Unless i get a confirmation on the unit i will never know if it a bad product(my bad unit) or just a firmware issue.. Thus i will inform all others of my experiences. based on a bad product.
And my rant would be that I could not get a simple SIMPLE confirmation on the bugs i reported.


to podboy,

As for the "I have seen too many time this 'delay' approach and after time nothing happens."

I was referring to OTHER companies, NOWHERE in the post did i say that outlaw did it. I only stated that I have experienced it beofre and do not want outlaw to do it to me.

But now that i think about it... THEY ARE DOING IT RIGHT NOW. How can you be so blatantly ignorant on this fact and defend something that is happening right now.

To clarify this...
My first post was on NOVEMBER 25, and it is now jan 12. and as of now i have not got any confirmation whether or not this is a known bug that affect all unit/ or just my unit.


As for the
"They have acknowledged that they are working on a patch, and why don't you think they will deliver? "

IT not that 'i dont think they can deliver', it has to do with WHAT are they going to deliver.
If they do not confirm the bugs/issues then how do they know they are working on them.

I would even be happy with a 'Yes it is affecting others , and no we are not going to fix it'

At least i can confirm that the issues DOES exist on other units.

Perhaps my unit is DOA and is the only one that is affected.... Until i get a confirmation, I will never know.

HMMM, trolls like you should not blatantly post comments that do not help the situation, By attacking me with your ignorant posts this causes nothing but anger adn flamwars. Learn from the other great helpful posters and keep this post on track. You are too emotional and too fast to jump the gun, relax a little.


RE Read my posts above, I even gave HOW TO TESTS of teh bugs. And as of yet I have not got any confirmations from Outlaw that this is an isolated incidet, or affecting others.


It is so easyfor other to thing you are a good companie when you help with little thing asap, But it is terrible to see this 'good' company not able to do such a simple task. Can you explain why this is?

Netguy,

I understand your problems, and I think your situation is even worse given the brokerage fees.
I for one have accepted that Outlaw knows there is a problem and are working on it. I am going to trust them that a solution will be found in a timely manner and keep the unit because I think that a working 990 would be just what I want. But I do agree that not posting what they know shows they (as Don Rumsfeld put it)

"Don't know what they don't know"

I hope that very soon Scott will post with some results of what they "know". We as consumers might be able to help with what they "don't know" if we had a list of what has been confirmed. Everyone gets one chance in my book, some lucky ones get two. I just know this process will take time and one thing is for sure; I have all the documentation of this issue in copy. If 2 months from now there is still no fix, or if the fix does not work...quoting another famous American:

"Houston, we have a problem" and all hell will break loose.

Hello TheNetGuy,

I guess I don't understand the reason for your post here. In our off-board discussion several days ago I offered at your request to confirm any bugs or anomalies that you felt had been left unanswered. Instead of listing those bugs you are still concerned about, you chose to post here that we weren't providing you with enough of the answers you wanted.

The implication in your post is that we do not care or are in some way attempting to sweep these issues under the carpet and quite frankly I find that offensive. As I stated previously, we are working with Etronics to solve these anomalies and we will not rush a fix out prematurely simply because you are not satisfied. We will offer the software update as quickly as possible, but NOT at the expense of getting it right.

Scott

Once again scott you do not understand.

The bugs are at the begining of this post. the first message of this thread.

You have never answered the initial bugs.
You have not confirmed Any bugs in this thread.

Even Gonk and others have asked for a confirmation to the issues.

You said in your last post
"we are working with Etronics to solve these anomalies "

WHAT anomolies are you refferring to.

Can you please list those 'anomolies' that you are refferring to?

I have the 990, 950, 755, and 2 ICBMs.
In addition, I bought the australian made DEQX, direct from the factory. I knew that customs would be a issue with the product, should it fail, but I was willing to take that chance as I knew there is no other product like it (sort of like the other outlaw products)
I personally am disappointed about not seeing the siganl type (PCM, DD, DTS) on the display, as well as number of channels on the signal, like the 950 has. I don't like that I can't see the current mode, and that it won't retain a default setting if the stream type of data changes. Oh, the bass managment as well... (but I have external BM) However, I can't force the outlaws to change anything on my timeline. In fact, most companys won't change anything; their product is thier product, take it or leave it! Nevermind hosting a site where people can see issues with it's behaviour... If the sound hadn't been significantly improved over the 950, I would have returned it till/if the issues were resolved. However, I know the bass managment with the 950 was not resolved (double bass)but that didn't bother me too much (as the product is the product)but the noise issue was. The 990 has been promised a fix, and I beive the outlaws will deliver! I know my DEQX has had numerous software updates in beta, before being made mainstream (but it took a year of betas)Point is, these are great guys, and I will support them in this.

TheNetGuy - I'm going to quote just your bugs from your first post, all of which were noted only when mains were set to LARGE (you reported that you found no odd behavior with speakers set to SMALL).

In Scott's defense, he replied to your post ]almost immediately with comments specifically addressing each of the three main items as well as a request to contact Outlaw directly to review your configuration with them. It's been a while since that post and I don't know what correspondence you have had with Outlaw since then, but it sounds like at least some of the problems you have been having may not be due to bugs in the 990 design.

Gonk,

Not slamming here, but I think you might be mistaken about the problem occuring W/small speaker settings. From Netguy's post above:

This is EXACTLY the problem I am having.

I was repeating one of the first comments in NetGuy's first post - at that time, he indicated that the problems he was encountering were all related to large speakers. Life has kept me from running significant tests of my 990's bass management this last month or so and my day-to-day setup (all speakers small, sub on, digital inputs with the exception of the occasionally-used 5.1 analog from my universal player) is one that I have encountered no problems with, so I can currently not contribute first-hand experience with the issues being evaluated.

Just want to confirm. I recently bought a 990/7125 combo and I'm having the same issues above as Netguy and Capt as well as some of the issues Netguy originally listed.

Good news everyone, I got in contact with scott directely and after a big battle royal (lots of carnage and blood all over the place) we both agreed that it would be best to try to solve the issues instead of trying to resolve who pissed whom off the most about stuff.

Anyhow This is what i got.
1. Bass frequencies level increase inverse to X-over setting when set FRONTS to LARGE and Sub Set to NONE

Known issue, reproducable and they are working on it.

This is tied into the 'direction of toggle of the sub settings'. (as stated earliy by another poster)


2. When in stereo mode, The sub output is always Full range when fronts set to LARGE and Sub set to L/R +sub.

known, reproduceable (in analog mode) and an explaination that differnt people want differnt options for their full range modes. And they are working on a way that will hopefully work with everyone needs.


3. Bass not redirecting to sub when fronts set to LARGE and sub set to L/R + sub

Not reproducable on their end

WE did some tests and My unit IS consistant, No output in the Sub with either dd 2.0 or dd 5.1.


Scott will do further testing matching my methologies to try to see it it does it on any of his units. Hopefully there is an issues wtith many machines, (so i dont ahve to send a unit back), and thus hopefully a fix for this will be in the works with the patch.

He is aware of my serious concerns about the timely release of a patch, and he reassured me that a patch is close. less then 6 months.

I Also expressed that i would like to see a formal confirmation on the bug rather than a general blanket statement that 'they are working on it' I am not sure if this is because of liablilities, or the concern that they dont want to promise too much before it happens. IMHO it is a bad move if they are actually reliable and helpful as everyone says.

Anyhow this is the update. And hopefully i get the results of the Bug 3 above asap.

UPDATE Regarding BUG 3.

It does appear that this bug is confirmed as well,


Thus I dont have to worry about having a DOA,

And will be waiting for confirmation that this will be fixed in the upcomming patch. It this feature is in the patch. Then i will keep the unit and wait for a patch.

Is there a work-around for this? That is, if you actually have large fronts and no sub, is there a way to configure the thing such that it gives the proper output?