OK, first of all, here's a beef I have with the 990. When you set the "default" surround mode (example: "upsample" on my CD input), then you listen to audio through it, change the setting to Pro-Logic via the remote, then turn off the unit, turn it back on, guess what - it's still Pro-Logic! How does that make "upsample" the "default"? At that point, there is no "default", theres just a "current mode". Default, IMO, should be the default mode for that input, and every time you switch inputs, or at least power, it should return to the default. I mean, that's the definition of "default", why not just change the menu setting to "mode". Personally, I like the idea of true "default", perhaps it could have one of the options be "last selected" much like the volume control to maintain the current functionality.

OK and onto my actual question... I'm trying to understand how the surround sound mode logic works. It's my understanding that the 990 will always detect & differentiate between PCM, DD and DTS. The matrix modes (NEO:6, Pro-Logic IIx and none/stereo) are then the only selectable surround modes, as they are implemented after the bitstream level protocol is already decoded. Am I correct so far?

Here's where the default issue gets to me. I have a 5.1 setup, so I have no need for Neo/Pro Logic when listening to a DD/DTS stream. But I'd like to turn it on when listening to a 2 channel DVD or TV. But then when I play a DD/DTS DVD, it's going to revert to the PLIIx decoding on top of the DD/DTS, right? Just seems to me that this is undesirable behavior that would be avoided by enforcing/resetting "default" setting when switching inputs.

Rob

If you have a 5.1 setup, PLII/PLIIx decoding would only be applicable for sources that are less than 5.1 (such as Dolby Digital 2.0 or something really unusual like Dolby 4.0). Weird fact about PLIIx: it is often marketed as a 7.1 extension of PLII, but it really is more of an update to PLII that adds the ability to go up to 7.1 - PLIIx applied to a stereo source on a system with fewer than 7.1 or 6.1 speakers (such as a common 5.1 system or even a 4.1 system with no center speaker) will honor the number of speakers available in the system and output accordingly.

Very interesting, so basically, the 990 is smart enough to hide the modes which are limited by my # of speakers? IE, no DD + PL2 since I only have 5 speakers... nice!

What about Neo6? Would that just show up as "DTS-ES" when used with DTS? And I guess that would be hidden from me as well, since I only have 5 channels...I still would like the 2 channel to go back to the "default" setting when switching inputs tho...

BTW I hope I'm not coming accross as being too critical of the 990, it's a great unit, has a really great feature set, I think there are a couple rough spots that could be polished up in the interface...but for the $, I'm very happy with it. I had to deal with Outlaw with some issues on a 950 I had bought secondhand, and I was very happy with the customer service.

Rob

I believe so - haven't turned off my surround backs to see for sure, but I'm basing it on the nature of PLII/PLIIx.

NEO6 was originally intended solely for two-channel sources, not as an extension to DTS. I'm not even sure if it can be used for anything except analog or PCM stereo inputs (it couldn't be with the original NEO6 decoding included in the Model 950). If you had surround back channels and wanted to get signals to them with a DTS track, you wouldn't use NEO6 to do it - you'd use DTS ES for that (similar to Dolby EX). If you were to have surround backs or if you had a DTS stereo source (which I've never encountered, although they may exist), you could actually use PLII/PLIIx to fill things out - it is capable of being used with both DTS and Dolby (and analog, and PCM).

An even more annoying bug...let's say you set your default to upsample. Then you watch a movie and the following day you listen to a CD. You notice the CD sounds different so you check the input settings and notice it's in PLII mode.

This is really driving me crazy...to the point that I'm almost ready to throw in the towel and get another processor.

Scott, can you find out if this bug will be addressed in the oft-mentioned firmware update?

Cheers,

Agreed. Will this be addressed?

Thanks,
Lonny

gonk,

Neo:6 is used with DTS 5.1 soundtracks, but the process is more often referred to by another name: DTS ES decoding (the matrix version, not discrete 6.1). A little background if you will...

Like most matrix decoders, Neo:6 has a back part and a front part. The back part is where decorrelated (out-of-phase) sounds from the 2-channel input are steered. The front part converts 2 channels to 3 channels by extracting correlated (in-phase) mono info and steering it to the centre output. It is this front part that is used to extract surround-back content from the 2 surround channels.

When the surround-back channel first started to appear on DVDs, there was only one decoder: THX Surround EX, which used the front portion of the old Pro Logic matrix and could be applied to DD and DTS soundtracks (it still can be applied to both). After THX's exclusivity period was over, Dolby and DTS started marketing their own surround-back decoders. DD EX and DTS ES both continued to use the front portion of the old Pro Logic matrix for surround-back extraction. If you remember back, this was one of the things that caused the 950 to be delayed: Outlaw had an opportunity to include licensed EX decoding instead of some third-party surround-back extraction (like on the 1050 receiver).

Around this time, Dolby allowed DSP chip manufacturers the option to switch from old Pro Logic technology to their newer PLII matrix for surround-back extraction. Again, they would be using the front portion of the matrix to extract a mono surround-back channel.

DTS probably didn't want to keep licensing technology from their direct rival, so they switched to using the front portion of their own Neo:6 matrix to extract the surround-back channel of DTS ES soundtracks. You can still this reflected in the nomenclature of some receivers and pre-pros. For example: on Anthem processors, if the DTS 5.1 soundtrack is properly flagged for ES decoding, you'll see "DTS ES" on the front panel. If the soundtrack has no flag (irrespective of whether it is ES encoded or not), then you will see "DTS + Neo:6" on the front panel. Same thing, different name.

Thanks, Sanjay - I think I'd heard that DTS ES Matrix was borrowed from Neo:6 but had let it slip my mind. Good overview.

The non ability of the "default" surround mode to retain it's setting has me very disapointed as well. It appears when, for instance, I set "upsample" for my one of my inputs. If I only send PCM to the acciociated optical input, all is well. But the moment that input gets some other type of data stream, it changes the "default"! Now, if I later send PCM to that input, I get PL2 as the mode. Compounding this problem, There is no good way to see the current surround mode without changing modes!
Sure, if I set "vidio 1" to be DD+PL2Music, and set "vidio 4" to be upsample, and both use the same toslink in, the "default" works IF and only IF the datastream is the correct format, forever. But don't allow it to change; in my case I use a Dish 921, and I like the 48k PCM music channels on "vidio 4 upsample". BUT, we change channel to a movie; Boom, no more default if we return to PCM later. The same issue can be expected for a DVD player used for PCM and DD/DTS.
I REALLY, REALLY would like to have this change. Is there anyone I could pay off to help get the ball rolling on this a bit sooner?

Blaineh,

Exactly! I set up my coax output from the DVD player to be the input for CD and the TOSlink output to be the input for DVD. The problem has been mentioned in the forums a *number* of times over the last few months with no official word from Outlaw about a fix.