After almost two years of lurking here (my first post was Nov. 2003), I finally pulled the trigger. A shiny new 990 is headed for my doorstep, and he's bringing friends (a 7125 and LFM-1). I may be a sucker for combo pricing, but I can't be accused of being an impulse buyer.

In any case, now it's time to go speaker shopping -- virtually, for now. I'm basically starting from scratch here, as my current "gear" consists of some truly awful sounding home theater in a box speakers (being stored in the garage for now, as the TV speaker does as much justice to audio).

The challenge? I'm planning to set things up in a very small room -- 10ft wide, 16ft long, 8-9ft ceilings (about 25% of the room has 8ft ceilings, the rest is 9ft). This is a carpeted basement room, with two doorways and a single large window. As my 990 purchase suggests, I'm overspending a bit in case I decide to move everything upstairs to my much larger (and warmer) living room.

Some other inputs:

- Usage will initially be around 80% movies / television, 20% music.

- 100% of the music will be enjoyed in stereo (+1) for the foreseeable future. My musical preferences are pretty fairly approximated in my recent listening data (this is mostly workplace listening, but it gives a general idea):

http://www.last.fm/user/nullptr

- A strong midrange (vocals) and wide soundstaging are the properties I value the most (for music and movies). I wore out the 8-second "instant rewind" button on my TiVo because of lack of dialogue clarity (not to mention my TV's closed captioning button). I cannot tolerate speakers that make voices sound like they're coming from inside a box.

- I don't consider full range mains to be of critical importance, but I'd like to at least reach 40-50hz before crossing down to "the beast".

- Audio quality is the top priority, but I value aesthetics as well. I'll spend more for a beautiful veneer (I adore Birdseye Maple). That said, there is no "W" or "AF" to be concerned with -- sound wins in the end

- I'd like to stay under $3500 for the entire suite of speakers (less is more here, of course).

This brings me to some assumptions which I'd like to refine before doing serious research (I'd love some feedback here):

A1. The front 3 speakers should demand the majority of my attention (and budget).

A2. I'm better off buying some very high quality bookshelf speakers (or small towers) than something full range which is capable of filling a larger room.

A3. I have enough "juice" via the 7125 in my room size that speaker sensitivity isn't a major consideration.

A4. The smaller room (and lack of multi-channel music) would be best served by dipole design for rears / surrounds.

A5. Despite the small room, a 7.1 configuration (however tight) is still a better choice than 5.1.

A6. Matching the front 3 speakers is considerably more important than matching the rears / surrounds.

So, hopefully that's enough input -- I'm basically looking for some recommendations and guidelines to help me focus my search. I've found plenty of good information in previous "what are you running" threads, but having something focused on my smaller room would be helpful (for me and hopefully other visitors).

Thanks in advance!

I'm glad to see you de-lurk for the occasion - it sounds like you are going to have a great system in the very near future!

Your room is not significantly smaller than my old living room (it was a foot wider and a couple feet longer, with ceilings just a hair under 8' throughout) - I think you have a lot of good options with the budget you have in mind. The approach of making sure your mains and center are similarly-voiced, high quality speakers and then getting surrounds that follow along with the front three is a very sound one. Except perhaps for something like the really large Polk towers (which several people have recently reported preferring a lot of power), the 7125 should be a great match to most anything you consider.

Do you have an opportunity to visit some area shops and demo the most common "brick and mortar" brands (Paradigm, DefTech, Polk, B&W, Boston Acoustics, ...)? Or is your focus more on the web-based channels (Axiom, AV123's Onix, Aperion, ...)? If you can let your ears demo some speakers first-hand, that's always the best bet (that's how I picked my Paradigm Reference speakers, and I still enjoy them greatly). From the internet-direct fold, your budget would work very well with Axiom, the Onix Rockets (the Reference line would probably stretch things a bit thin), or Aperion - in fact, Axiom and Aperion would easily come in under that budget (call it $2500 or less), and you could get a pair of Rocket 550's, RSC200 center, and two sets of their surrounds for around $2800 plus shipping (or try to grab a set of the old 750's if they haven't run out and save $100). As you've no doubt seen, there are a number of quite satisfied customers from both Axiom and AV123 around here - Axioms have been showing up here longer (since the line's been on the market longer), but the Rockets have been on the rise quite a bit in the last couple years and have a very loyal following.

Tyler Acoustics gives you many (almost too many) choices of veneers.

Check out the Freedom line. A pair of F-3s, two pairs of F-1s and a FC-2 come in under $3200.

I'm a big fan of Dynaudio and Totem Acoustic. I own Soliloquy Speakers, but I'm not sure that they are even in business anymore.

You could get their Audience 52 Front Speakers ($1,100), 122C ($900)and (2) pairs of 42 ($850 ea) in that range. They have Maple as a option, but they do not have a DiPole Rear Channel. The prices above are list price. You should be able to get at least a 10% discount to bring the total under $3,500.

You could also chek out the Totem Acoustic Brand. Maple is an upcharge. A front soundstage of Mite-T and Mite-T-C would be a good setup.

You really should get out and listen to different tyes of speakers. You may find that you have a preference for metal dome speakers .vs. soft dome speakers. In the price range that you want to be in they can sound quite different.

Have fun and enjoy the search.

Charlie

This stage of the planning is great fun, isn't it?

Two points. First, my room is a good bit smaller than yours (11 x 11 x 9 high), and my 7.1 is entirely effective and worthwhile. Don't even think about not doing 7.1, particularly with the 990/7125's ability to make that come alive.

Second, take a look at my list of speakers. The surrounds are tiny and sound really good. But through necessity I had to get a center that was in no way related to my L/R fronts (which are no longer being made). The conventional wisdom is that this would be a problem. I may have unusually poor listening abilities (I don't think so), but I found that an inexpensive center with a limited frequency range, serves very well and in no way detracts from either multichannel music or multichannel movies. That said, I still would get a "matched set" if I were starting from scratch.

Congrats, it sounds like you've been doing some good research. You've made some good decisions so far but now comes the trickiest one. Speakers are a very personal thing. What one person loves, another person will hate. You really do have to get out to some stores and listen. Bring along a favorite recording and a DVD you know and love. Don't be afraid to go to stores that carry brands above your selected price range. Listening to the higher priced offerings will give you a good comparison point and, maybe, a good goal also.

I would also say to continue your online research and read editorial reviews of different speakers. Though the reviews don't replace listening, they do give you a good idea about the nature of each of the speaker brands and how they compare to each other.

Two other thoughts:

1) Don't be afraid to get speakers that need a higher crossover point for the subwoofer. Especially in a smaller room, you can get away with at least an 80hz, if not a 100hz, crossover point.

2) Matching the front three channels is definitely neccesary. I actually use three of the same speakers (M&K K-5) across the front soundstage. You really can't tell most of the time where one speaker sound ends and the next begins. I also recommend matching surrounds or at least surrounds from the same brand. They don't make the biggest difference but you can't beat it for soundstage continuity.

Good luck and happy listening!

-One more thing, take $500 off of your speaker budget and dedicate it to improving the acoustics in your room. A good sounding room will really bring out what your system can truly do.

Dear Nullptr:

Congratulations on getting your Outlaws. Regarding speakers, I have one word of advice: MAGNEPLANAR. For $3200, or even $2700 as Jason 3 suggests, you can get a terrific 7 channel system (two 1.6QR fronts, two pairs of MMG-Ws for side and surround, and the MMG-C center). The fronts go down to 40 Hz easy, they're all dipoles, and the sides and surrounds take up no floor space at all because you hang them on the walls. Look up their web site.

This system would fit the bill. Axioms surrounds give an awesome sound. The sub would shake you foundations. Tha mains and center give you a neutral sound with plenty of volume.
You don't need the sub so the system would be about $1100 less.

Way to Go nullptr!! I have been slowly saving enough cash to buy the 990 for years (I actually started to save for a 950). I hate using credit, and my teaching salary is limited. I am so jealous :p .

Buying speakers is very personal, I learned long ago to trust my own ears. I have a 16' x 13' x 8' room. I have auditioned in this space Paradigm, Energy, Vandersteen, B & W, Martin Logan, and Monitor Audio speakers. I picked the Monitors because of the clear midrange, and the almost electrostatic, IMO, sound of the metal/ceramic cones. Monitor Audio Silver 5i's and center channel have a sweet spot that envelopes the whole couch, and have no sibilance or ring. Conversation is very clear, and the bass response with a good sub (fast transients) really helps the theater aspect. With movies, much of the sound comes from the center channel, so resist the urge to go really cheap. The Monitor Audios were lower in cost that the equivalent speakers in Paradigm and B&W, but both of these companies make great speakers. I would have gone with Paradigm Reference 100s if cost was less of an object. The Vandersteen’s have a gorgeous sound, but the sweet spot is really limited (same with Martin Logan’s which are too rich for my blood). I have owned the these speakers since 2000, and still love ‘em. I do mostly 2 channel music (classical).

I have already purchased two more Monitor Audio surrounds for 7.1, which won’t be hooked up until I pull the trigger on a 990. Total for Speakers $3895, but you could get this for much less($3300 to $3500) if you by it in a package. I bought one set at a time- (LCR) + (SS) + (RS) + sub.

Equipment:
1. Denon AVR 3200 (Back channels just went out after 9 years of heavy use)
2. Anthem AMP for LCR (200 watts x 3)
3. Monitor Audio Silver series with 5i’s for main left and right ($900 for both, open box sale) they are only 31” high, so I built 4” inert sand filled boxes with a slight tilt back to bring them up to ear level.
4. Monitor Audio sub FSB210 $995- very fast, low /(25htz) 250 watts
5. Monitor Audio Silver Center Channel $600 (have seen for $450)
6. Monitor Audio Silver Surrounds $ 700 for two (Have seen these at $550/pr)
7. Panasonic Rear Projection LCD 50” HDTV
8. Denon DVD DVM3800
9. Denon Cassette Deck
10. Denon CDR
11. Dual 1219 Turntable

Thanks for your suggestions. It's been a chore just getting to the speaker store to hear these, and only a small subset are available in my area. I heard some selections from Paradigm and B&W. Both quite good, but I'm not thrilled about paying dealer markups -- as good as they are, they aren't as good as they cost. I'm not sure I can do the "Internet thing" on speakers, I just get too frustrated reading all the various opinions.

I'm thinking about building these bad boys instead (the enclosure is actually a reasonable size for my room!):

http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/KITApex.htm

Well you shouldn't get too many opinions on these since most of us have never heard them! They look interesting enough but what are you going to use for the center, sides and rear speakers?

I build all my own speakers (some from kits and some of my own design) and have been very happy with cost and performance. Selfishly, I'd say go for it and then post your review.

There is a quantum level improvement to be had by going from conventional speakers with passive crossovers to electronic crossovers, but this adds cost and complexity. The Behringer or DEQX electronic crossover solutions make it possible for the hobbyist to easily implement active speaker deisgns.

Anybody have any experience with the Adire Rava II sub-woofer? It looks very interesting.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/Rava.htm

My 2 cents. JM Labs/Focal. They have stuff at all price points. They make their own drivers and their strong point is the tweeters, absolutely awesome. I agree about dealer markup though it is very high on these. But if you can, go listen to the Cobalt series. In your price range. In a lot of respect similar to the Dynaudios but more highs.

Okay, since no one has mentioned them.......

Ascend Acoustics has some excellent speakers. I own CBM-170's for my front mains. Their 340M's are very highly rated, and the 340C is an exact match so you'd have a perfectly matched front end. The standard finish is black vinyl, but they offer custom, high quality automotive finishes upon request. You could get a pair of front mains w/stands(standard finish) for around $650, and a center for $298. There's likely a package discount available.

If you prefer a multi-pole surround speaker, the Axiom QS series are fantastic! I have QS-8's and love them. They blend very well with my 170's and are extremely enveloping, and sound much bigger than their physical size suggests. They come in several standard vinyl veneers as well as custom finishes.

As for a sub, Axiom's EP500 and 600 are earning rave reviews.

So my recomendation is: Ascend 340's across the front, Axiom QS-8's($500U.S.)surrounds and an Axiom EP500 sub. If you stick with black finishes they should match fairly well.

I would hope you have decent building skills as that does not look like an easy kit to build especially if you've never built speakers before. Don't be fooled by nice looking, finished speaker pictures. Your bare enclosures are not going to look that pretty without some good finish on them.

I also hope you're not thinking that the more drivers, the louder you're system is going to sound. If you want big in your stated price range, go look at the Infinity Beta 50 series of speakers. Big floorstanding mains (twin 10" woofers I believe)with a huge center channel and switchable dipole/bipole/monopole surrounds. If you get their top subwoofer with the built-in EQ, you should be able to get the whole system for around $2500. I've listened to this system in a small demo room and found that it sounds pretty nice for home theater.

I'd contract out the building to someone with the time and capability

My problem with Adire kits ('cept for the subs) is that nobody seems to be selling them. They have only 2 distributors in the USA and only one of them appears to be selling a very limited selection of kits (the Apex isn't one of them). As near as I can guestimate, you'd probably be spending $2.5K+ for that kit if you can even buy one and you were outsourcing the cabinetry.

Personally, I'm a Magnepan kinda guy, but that's not really a tenable solution for a small room. If I was already considering this type of expenditure, and I had a small room, I'd look at something like the VMPS Ribbon Monitor Two. Those run about $2200 for a kit and about $2700 delivered finished to your door. I have a neighbor with these who used them to replace a pair of Thiel 7's. They sound fantastic. More info here:

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/rmdoc2.htm

Cheers,

The audio shop guy told me I didn't have enough power for Maggies ... then he tried to sell me some Paradigms. Hmm.

As far as Adire is concerned, I live in the area of their HQ. They tend to have a few kits to listen to on hand, and the kits aren't terribly difficult to come across -- even the Apex[1]. I was only half serious in mentioning the Apex, in any case -- I think the LCR would be a better choice for me.

1. http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/wrnch2/apex.html

Regarding cost -- I'm quite content to blow my budget as long as I feel I'm getting appropriate value.

Now I just need to find someone who can make speakers look like this:

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/images/main-G7p1c-pair.jpg

Given your budget and choice of equipment consider used or last years' models on some of these brands.

Paradigm Reference Studio 60s are quite nice but
the Energy Veritas 2.3s are a good step up from them with more bass, cleaner sound all around, but this would mean going with used speakers.

These have slightly less bass than the 100s but much cleaner sound. The original series had glue issues with the woofers' magnets, the i series fixed it by using bolt as well as glue (mine were covered under warranty and I had them replaced with the redesigned woofers).

Incredible dynamics, midrange and treble and very tight bass (2.3 series for front speakers are a great choice, front vented so you can practically push them up against the wall without many issues with the bass).

There are separate surrounds and center channel speakers for this one.

I cross mine over at 50 to a sub using a second order high pass and 4th order low pass. They can go considerably lower than 50 but you pay in distortion next to the sub (still low though, under 10% at 35 hertz at 90 decibels at 1 meter) and in power needs for the mains. This is true for just about any floorstanders less than about $6k a pair.

Also, Polk, Epos ELS (limited dynamic range though), JM Labs Focal Chorus, Von Schweikert all very good.