Hey all,

Setting up my new 990 I've run into a problem with regard to speaker placement...

My first out of the box set up for the 990 3-days ago was a basic quickie auto-calibrated 5.1 set-up which yielded descent results considering that I didn't tweak anything. Since then, I've been struggling to set-up 7.1, but the results have been poor due to calibration and placement issues (see other post).

My original 5.1 set up has my rear speakers mounted high agains the rear wall of my room. One of my goals for the 990 was to add floor standing side speakers (Def. Tech BP-10s) to the sides of my listening area. They are wired and in place.

Now here's the rub...

Apparently the 990 assumes that the SL and SR speakers will be placed to the sides of the listening area and that the SBL & SBR channels are to the rear facing forwardas diagramed in the manual. My problem is my rear surrounds are in the position that the 990 assumes that the back speakers should be :rolleyes: The manual doesn't even diagram a 5.1 configuration which I think is especially lacking, but I will save those comments for another post.

Problems & Options:

With my current speaker arrangement, if I chose to play a 5.1 soundtrack, the rear info. goes to my floorstanders placed to the sides - no good

Moving my rears from the back wall to the sides is not an option since I have no where to mount them and I like them where they are.

Swap the SR/SL & SBR/SBL outputs from the 990? This would put the back channel info. to the BP10s at the sides of my couch, but I don't know how that would effect that would have on channel steering.

Suggestions wanted!

Audiolib,

On what inputs on the 990 do you have the rear surrounds and the side surround interconects hooked up to ? It should not matter what speaker you use where as long as you have whatever speaker that is in that position hooked up to the appropriate spot on the 990 and your amp. Unless I am not understanding your question correctly...?

Wingnut,

I have the inputs currently assigned as Outlaw intended... with the surround left & right outputs feeding speakers to the l/r of my seating position. Similarly, the surround back l/r outputs are feeding speakers on the rear wall behind the seating. The channels are hooked up correctly as evidenced by the auto-test tone following the circle of speakers.

To date, I have been unable to get acceptable 7.1 performance from the 990. Until I have time to trouble-shoot that problem, I would like to use the 990 for 5.1 decoding. The problem is, in the current configuration, the 990 sends rear channel information to the speakers located to the sides of my seating area which is not optimal.

So I am looking for other options. One option could be to feed the speakers on the rear wall left & right surround channel info. and feed the speakers to the right & left of my seating area back channel information. But in that configuration my concern is with channel steering.

I am also contemplating moving the speakers from my rear walls to the sides, which is apparently the conventional 7.1 set up. I may be able to put the speakers on stands or mount them on the ceiling, which is sloped toward the seating area. But man, I have tried mounting speakers to the side several times with poor results and got tired of drilling and filling holes in the drywall

I hope my problem is more clear. Not sure that there is much help for me except trial and horror.

Audiolib,

The problem here isn't with anything Outlaw did but rather with one of expectation on your part. In fact, Outlaw's implimentation of 7.1 playback is not only psychoacoustically correct but it matches established industry standards for surround placement.

Information in the surround channels is intended to be heard from from all around you; primarily from your sides, with a little rear fill. The only surround info that should specifically come from behind you is correlated (in-phase) mono content in the surround channels.

To get the intended effect at home with a 5.1 set-up, it is recommended that the 2 surround speakers be placed along the sides walls, slightly rearward of the listening area. This helps strike a decent compromise between side and rear coverage.

The problem is that you have gotten used hearing surround information coming from behind you. Notice that you refer to it as "rear info" (which it isn't) and have your surround speakers placed behind you (which is not the optimal location for intended directionality).

While there is nothing wrong with this as a personal preference, it will cause for some adjustment if & when you decide to go with a set-up that is closer to industry standards. Quite understandably, you're expecting surround information to come from behind you that the rest of us have traditionally heard from our sides. Hence your complaint "rear info. goes to my floorstanders placed to the sides - no good".

Like I said, it's expectation on your part more than any incorrect assumption on Outlaw's part. If you find it uncomfortable getting used to, then you may be better off with a 5-speaker set-up like you originally had. That's better than being constantly distracted by surround directionality that you're not used to, especially when you're trying to concentrate on a movie.

However, if you do want to go with a properly laid out 7.1 set-up, then follow the directions in the Outlaw manual. That speaker placement is the same recommended by companies like Dolby and DTS as well as surround pioneers such as Fosgate and Lexicon.

Good Luck,

Thanks for the input Sanjay,

I expect that what you say is true, I am trying to put my personal constraints on a surround standard that doesn't fit. I have had pretty good results with my surround channels located on the back wall of my 20'x16' room and can't seem to replicate that with 7.1 processing via the 990. I agree that it may not be the 990's fault, but still may be a limitation that I may choose not to live with. I have already come up with a couple of options for reconfiguring my speakers to optimize 7.1 ch playback.

To update my situation, tonight I recalibrated my current configuration (as described above) using the 990 test tone and have had better results. Decoding seems more accurate now, but very different from results via my Avia test disc.

Since then, I've been trying to play with the Panorama, center width and dimension settings to no avail. I have tried several sources with no discernable effect on sound. As the manual reads, these should be adventageous to my situation, but for the life of me (and both of my sons) we can not hear any difference in altering these settings. As the manual indicates, these effects are only available with Pro Logic II or IIx processing, which I understand. I assume that these effect my be suble, but are they inaudible? I can not hear any change when cycling through the limits of any of these effects - nor can either of my sons (albeit coersed test listeners).

Please remark on what these settings have on your system and describe what you can hear I expect that I should experience some noticable change.

To hear the difference that panorama settings bring you need to be in either PLII Music or PLIIx Music mode. If you are in Movie mode, the settings have no affect.


Later,
simp

Audiolib, If it's any consolation, I went through a similar adjustment. My first Pro Logic based set-up had the two surround speakers directly behind me on the back wall. When listening to movies like 'Days of Thunder' I would literally hear the race car leave the left front speaker, then go behind me and come back to the right front speaker.

When I eventually moved the surround speakers closer to my sides, the results were disappointing because the sense of the race car circling the room was not as dramatic. The surround field was this ambient and enveloping blur that wrapped around me. I know that is the intended effect (like in a movie theatre) but I was initially unused to it and preferred hearing the sound from behind me.

I was able to get that effect back when I finally went with a 7.1 set-up, except the results were actually better. The race car shot out of the left front speaker, zipped along the left wall, crossed from left to right behind me, came down the right wall into the right front speaker. Same effect as my older system, but with smoother panning in the surrounds. The only reason I suggested sticking with a 5.1-speaker set-up for the moment is so that the surround steering doesn't end up distracting you; which it seems to be doing currently. Keep in mind that the very point of surround sound is to immerse you more deeply into the movie or music you are listening to.

Anything that distracts from that experience is doing the opposite of what is intended; doesn't matter if the distraction is a result of the hardware itself screwing up or simply a personal preference not being catered to.

However, if you are willing to re-train your ears and preferences, then I think you'll become used to the rear-vs-side directionality and wrap-around envelopment that 7.1 delivers. Personally, I always calibrate using the internal test tones. It's gotten me more consistent results than calibrating for one particular source (DVD player). Those adjustable parameters are for use when applying PLIIx to 2-channel sources. Have you tried applying PLIIx to any 5.1-channel sources (DD or DTS)?

Best,

Thanks again Sanjay,

Reading your post has me reaching for my manual... hold tight...

You are correct and I obviously read too fast (please wipe the egg off my face)

I did not pick up on the fact that those adjustments are active only in PLIIx MUSIC mode. My apologies for the glaring omission.

Between our posts, I've been spending time listening to different DVDs. Sin City (DTS) sounds awesome, esp. w/ NEO6 (cool movie incase you haven't seen it . It is a little forward in the center channel, but that mtay be attributed to the specific soundtrack. Star Wars II was good in DD EX, but PLIIx was only marginally better. Most tracks I tried sounded a little sibilant, on the bright side, which activating Theater Compensation help alleviate somewhat. Of course, this may all change if I rearrange my speaker configuration, which I probably will do.

Overall, I am not sure that 7.1 have proven to be such a drastic improvement over 5.1 for me. I think that it is due impart to the size of my room (20'x16'). It is small enough that adding the extra two channels may be overkill without sufficient space for proper channel separation.

I certainly appreciate your input. I will keep you posted as to my progress.

Audiolib, Not just the Music mode but only for 2-channel material. When using PLIIx with 5.1 material, the adjustable parameters can't be used. 7.1 is not about filling a large room with sound but instead about improved envelopment, directionality and imaging stability; irrespective of room size.

When a car exits screen-left, you want the sound to disappear to your left side. When a plane flies overhead, you want the sound to disappear behind you. How to get stable imaging at your sides and behind you with only one pair of surrounds? After all, even the best pair of surround speakers can't be in two locations at once.

The most effective solution is also the simplest: a pair of surrounds at your sides and another pair behind you. Makes it difficult for their respective sounds to come from the wrong direction. And since 4 speakers can literally 'surround' you better that 2 speakers ever could, you get wrap-around envelopment that is not possible with only 2 surround speaker. These qualities are desirable no matter how big or small your room.

If you're willing to experiment, here's a suggestion. First, make sure your surrounds are correctly placed: side speakers directly to your sides, rear speakers spread well (at least 60 degrees) apart behind you. Next, do a manual calibration (distances and levels) from your listening sweet spot, using the built-in test tones.

Then try a variety of 5.1 material; titles known for active surrounds. Make sure you are in PLIIx Movie mode. If you feel that the side speakers are distracting compared to the rears, lower their volume by 2-3 dB. This may get you closer to the balance you're used to in the surround field. (Don't worry, the surround police won't bust you for deviating from calibrated settings.) Live with this for a few days and let us know what you think.

Best,

I appreciate your suggestion, Sanjay, but unfortunately, windows and a lg. glass sliding door are to the direct sides of my sofa preventing proper placement there.

I agree with your premise that experimentation is the answer to get things right. Unfortunately, finding the time to do it is another limiting factor. Right now, my set up is okay, but certainly not optimal.

One problem is that the 990 produces a very forward presentation in my room, placing center channel information unrealistically in front of the display. I'm not exactly sure which setting, or combination of settings with help this condition, but I will probably start with the delay settings and then move to level.

Again, this all takes time to adjust, listen, re-locate, listen, etc., etc. Not a bad thing, but it takes time. I'll let you know how I'm progressing as things unfold.

Hey Sanjay,

I auditioned the PLIIx Music mode last night and all I have to say is WOW!!! Great surround effects from a 2-ch source. The sound varied quite a bit from CD to CD but that's to be expected. Nora Jones was in the room, while Godsmack was better w/only Upsampling on.

Very impressed with the bass management of the 990 as well... love the L/R + LFE mode. My Sony didn't offer 2-ch w/sub support like the 990 does. Big improvement if you want that disco thump! Black Eyed Peas and Gwen Stefani's latest discs really pop. My daughter and I listened for quite a while playing our favorite tracks. Can't wait to try some Sinatra - a personal favorite of mine

I have to honestly say that I was seriously contemplating returning my 990 to Outlaw considering the struggles that I've been having with my 7.1 setup. But it's uncanny ability to render 2-ch music either in stereo or multichannel w/o massive processing coloration has sealed the deal for me.

Audiolib,

Unlike movie soundtracks, for which there are industry standards and conventions, CDs do vary quite a bit from title to title. Visiting several recording studios can be quite the eye opener when you realize that there is no standardization in the music industry. This is precisely the reason why the PLIIx Music mode has adjustable parameters and the Movie mode doesn't.

And I agree with you: PLIIx is impressive. Manly yes, but I like it too. The best thing about it is that the processing uses the recording itself for a guide. All the sounds you hear are from the original recording; no added reverb or echo. The directional cues come from the way the recording was mixed. For example: sounds sent to the centre speaker are the ones that would have phantom imaged there anyway.

Listening with your daughter will highlight the benefits. With 2-speaker playback, if you wanted to hear the vocals phantom image correctly in the middle of the front soundstage, you would have to sit in a narrow sweet spot exactly between your front L/R speakers. With PLIIx engaged, those same sounds are moved to an actual speaker in the middle of the front soundstage. You and your daughter can be sitting on opposite ends of the couch, but both of you will hear the vocals from their intended direction: the middle of the front soundstage.

Same directionality as with 2-speakers, just better imaging stability for multiple listeners. Why should the listener in the sweet spot have all the fun?

After you spend some time getting used to PLIIx in its default settings, try playing with some of the adjustable parameters. Let me know if you need some tips on using those.

Best,