The phono input was the reason I bought the 990 over any other HT pre-pro except the Sherwood Newcastle P965 (and the 990's cheaper). So I'm wondering who else out there still plays LPs. I've been impressed with the sound - more detailed and better bass than my Adcom TPA500, just like the sound on the other inputs. The only improvement I could wish for - other than a moving coil capability so I could used more expensive cartridges than I can afford! - is about 10db more gain, so I don't have to boost the volume to play a record. Any comments from other vinyl-loving outlaws?

I finally bit the bullet and sold off all my vinyl. I ended up getting an average of about a dollar or two a piece for a couple thousand LPs. It just got to be silly carting them around when I hadn't owned a turntable in 10+ years. 8-)

I would imagine that good cartridges are getting expensive now that the volume of sales has shrunk so dramatically. What does a good moving coil cart go for these days?

Cheers,

i sold off my vinyl in the early 90's.a couple months ago i was in a repair shop that had just rebuilt some vintage JBLs,the guy fired 'em up with a tube amp and norah jones on vinyl and you know,it's been so long,i really can't say much about it,i've been so used to the sharp edge of cds.

but, i do prefer the sound of my tube d/a converter to anything else i own(or have heard lately)

I still have a hundred or so "records" that I hadn't listened to in 15 years when I bought my 990. So I reconditioned my 1219, bought a new cartridge for $150 or so, and have started to listen again. I'm just as happy listening at a lower-than-normal listening volume. At some point I'll get a DVD/CD recorder and make copies, but for now I enjoy the nostalgia, and in some cases, the sound itself.

Glad to hear you too use the phono input, Mike in Virginia. I don't mind boosting the volume 10 db or so to play records, as long as I remember to turn it back down before switching to other inputs. And with the quality of the 990 phono preamp, I'm not so sure digital sources all sound better: there's a hard-to-describe richness about LP sound, not in every case, but often. I have read lots of explanations why that can't be true, but they lose credibility when I simply listen.
One difference I've noticed, is that the stereo image from LPs is somehow less sweet-spot-sensitive than from most digital sources. From a bit off to the side when listening to a CD - from my own player or FM - the sound is usually distinctly off-balance to the point where I want to reset the channel levels. (Possible with the remote - thanks, Steve - but not exactly convenient.) But with an LP it's more like you're listening to the real sound from a bit off to the side - still quite acceptable. Has anyone else heard this? Is it a matter of more conservative mike placements and less multitracking back in the LP era?

No, it's because channel separation is far better on CDs than on turntables.

Not saying that's necessarily a good thing, but it does make for a different sound. On some older recordings (Beatles) it is actually kind of distracting, as they put vocals in one channel and instruments in the other. When I first got these on CD many years ago, it was a little disconcerting for the vocals to come so strongly from only one side, and I wonder if this wasn't an example of where a technological development results in you hearing something different than the artist (or mixing engineer in this case) meant for you to hear. But I don't know if channel separation on master tapes is closer to vinyl or CD, so don't know the answer.

I need to get a turntable. Gave mine away 5 years ago and my fiend doesn't seem to want to give it back.

BB

er, friend. Don't know any fiends, I think.

Scott, still on the subject of phono performance - as well as tuner; in fact all the non-HT uses which comprise over 98% of my 990's on-time - the announcement of the RR2150 "last great stereo receiver" raises three questions:
1. How does the RR2150's moving magnet phono performance compare with the 990's, assuming speakers of the quality of, e.g., Magneplanars?
2. How does its tuner performance compare with the 990's, same assumption?
3. And finally, if the RR2150 is better than the 990 in both these areas (and has preamp outputs), why doesn't someone, preferably Outlaw, bring out the thinking person's HT component: a combined HT processor and 5-channel amplifier which would not duplicate, and obsolete, a high quality stereo system, but rather build on it by supplying all, and only, those facilities required for multi-channel audio and home theater?

psyprof,

Actually Yamaha did have such a unit, for 5.1 it was DSP-E492 and for 7.1 it was DSP-E800. Both are now gone. I had a E492 and used it with my Adcom preamp and amp. Did exactly what you are saying, just adds the additional channels and processing.
I will be using my 990 with my MMF-7 turntable and I should have it setup this weekend. I'll mostly be using it for 2 channel music and some HT. I'll let you know how it sounds.

Good to hear that, gband. I'm glad someone besides me is going to use the 990 phono input. Your usage pattern sounds like mine. I too used an Adcom preamp - TPA-500, not the best but not bad - and the 990 definitely sounds better. You may find you have to turn the volume up 5-10 db for the same sound level on phono as on other inputs, though.

Don't dump that vinyl! Vinyl is superior to CD's and even SACD. You digital guys have lost the music. You have no idea what you are missing! I'm serious. Go to the audioasylum. Check out the vinyl forum.

I am still playing my LPs in my other two channel music system with Musical Fidelity phono stage. This thread makes me want to give my 990 phono sound a try. I am using Rega Planar 3 turntable with Blue Point Special cartridge for several years now. Compare to my CD counterpart, the LPs sound much better to me but what a pain to keep clean those LPs every time I give it a spin. For a convenience, you can't beat the CD based system but I still prefer vinyls sound over CD for pure listening pleasure minus inconvenience, of course. So like SirAnthony said, don't dump the vinyls but rekindle yourself with the sweet sound of vinyls.

Yes, well recorded vinyl sounds better than red book CD. I use a Dual 1219, with a Shure cartridge. BUT well done SACD and DVD Audio sounds as good to my ear, and if recorded properly for surround sound (i.e. Naxos DVD A, Vilvaldi, Davie Juritz and the London Mozart Players: The Four Seasons & Concertos for Double Orchestra, RV 582 & RV 581), is mind boggling.

The problem with vinyl is both the medium (way to fragile and fussy to be practical), and the flexibility (no multi-channel possibility in a increasingly surround sound world). Also, poorly recorded vinyl abounds, and does NOT sound better than CD. The vinyl format will be a purely niche item in the future, if it is not already. When the high resolution lossless digital audio format becomes available that succeeds (NO FORMAT WAR THIS TIME as happened to SACD and DVD A!!), I will convert all my 2500 LPs joyfully. I do not enjoy endless cleaning, needle angle adjustment, tone arm tracking and anti skating, and the inevitable scratch and pop.

Please, won't anyone report on the questions I asked, or at least on their experience in playing LPs through the 990? No offense, jmartin, but the question that started this thread was about phono performance, not opinions. Isn't there someone reading all this besides me who actually now plays LPs with the 990 from time to time, not some time or other in the future?
(Plaintive sigh)

Yes I will. Just need to give me a couple of days. I just set up the system in a new room and don't have the turntable (Music Hall MMF-7) fully setup yet. I'll have something to report probably this weekend.

I was comenting on the some of the previous reponses to your question. Being a teacher, I can get long winded and off subject easily. :p

I really do like the inclusion of a phono stage, and all ranting aside, love my records. On the point: I intend to purchase a 990 in the spring and will look this thread up and answer you.

I finally had some time to listen to my LP collections on 990 phono stage. My turntable is Rega Planar 3 with Blue Point Special cartridge which is set up in my two channel only music system. This phone stage is driven by Musical Fidelity analog preamp. When I first hook up the RP3 to 990, I started with classical LPs likes of Vivaldi Cello Concerto, Mozart's sonatas, etc., I was only meant to listen to portion of the musical scores but ended up listeing to almost whole LPs; it was that good. Is that means that I like 990's phono stage than my Musical Fidelity? No but it is very close. If I have to describe 990's phono stage sound, I have to say it is very neutral almost laid back smooth sound. Again this sound reminds me why I prefer LPs analog vs. digital music in many cases. I am not saying all LPs are sound superior over CD counterpart; thus not all LPs are created equal as well as CDs. But in my experience, I do not get tire of listening to LPs compare to CDs.

However, given choices, I often grab CDs instead of LPs due to its inconvenience of cleaning, dusting, etc. Since I already have separate phono stage, inclusion of phone stage in 990 wasn't part of the reason why I bought it. But if you have old collection of LPs in your basement but neglected, 990 will fit nicely to bring that smooth sound of LPs. Yes, the gain can be little more but I had no trouble bringing volume loud enough for my listening level. Given its primary mission of 990 (HT digital preamp), the inclusion of M/M phono stage is absolutely fantastic specially how it sounds. Am I willing to give up my analog only setup? No but given enough time with 990 and I didn't have my analog setup to begin with, I will be very happy to use 990's phono stage.

If you want to use M/C cartridge, just use one of those high output M/C cartridge and 990 will drive it fine with sufficient gain. With such a good sound coming from 990, I brought some more of LPs likes of Stevie Wonder, George Winston's piano solo, Doors, Scorpion, Pink Floyd, Cars, Elton John,,,,etc. My two hour quick listening session became almost half a day marathon listening session with big smile in my face. I finally had to stop not because I was tired of listening but other commitment like working. Anyway I was very pleased with performance of 990 phono stage. If you haven't tried yet, give it spin, you might be surprise how good it sounds. BTW, not surprisingly I prefer listening to LPs with bypass mode although I prefer upsampling mode with CDs. And if you did't like it much, I am sure you have already separate analog setup like me.

Ok I finally was able to play some LP's through the 990. My setup is 990, Music Hall MMF-7 turntable with Goldring Eroica Cartridge, Adcom 555II power amp and JM Labs Daline 6.1 Speakers. I listened to Joan Baez (Diamonds and Rust), Robert Palmer and ELP. In general I was very pleased with the sound. I though it did a better job than my Adcom 555II preamp that I just replaced. I did have to turn it up to get decent volume but it sounded great. I tried stereo, bypass, upsampling , 5.1 stereo, etc. etc. I preferred bypass the best although I heard no difference between bypass and stereo modes. The sound was sweet and no harsh and the bass came through like it should. I need to tweak my room and speaker placement(its new) to be more critical but I am very happy thus far with the phono performance. One thing I do miss though is the infrasonic filter on my adcom. It takes away those nasty (thumps) from someone hitting the rack.
I'll post more when I do some tweaking and more critical listening.

Thanks, gband and justhavingfun - glad to see more people still enjoying LPs in spite of their inconvenience, and justifying the phono preamp on the 990. I was frankly surprised how good it is. BTW, gband, I don't think upsample will do anything for analog sources. I haven't compared the stereo and bypass settings; may put on the headphones for that. I hadn't thought about the lack of a subsonic filter (my AR turntable is pretty bump-proof) but have noticed that with the 990 I don't hear the hum that the Grado pickup is known to produce with the AR turntable. With the Adcom TPA500 it was audible but not bothersome. Better and better with the 990.

Your probably right about upsampling, in fact I thought it odd that it was even an option. I have a granite slab that is used for lab balances, I need to put that back under the table. That might obviate the need for the infrasonic filter. I also need to do the headphone test for hum and the subtle differences between bypass and stereo. Through the speakers, no audible hum and the sound was great. Time for more listening. I have a second turntable, a Thorens 185 that I use for really beat LP's, with an Audio Technica cartridge that I should try. The Goldring is a high output moving coil, while the AT is a moving magnet. It should be louder on the 990. So much to try, so little time.

the phono stage included with the 990 was a big factor for me getting the 990, also the dvi switching, i have the mmf 7 table coming, gband your positive thoughts on the mmf 7 with the 990 makes it look like my outlaw choice was a good one, will give my impressions as soon as i get my system up and running,

I think you'll like the MMF-7, I've had mine for 3 years. The Goldring Eroica is amazing for the price. The manual for the turntable sucks and I talked to Roy Hall a while back and he agreed but we both agreed that most don't use it anyway. My issue was how to adjust the VTA, which is easy, just not in the manual. The 990 phono input I am very impressed with. I listened a bit again to some LP's last night and was very happy. No regrets here.

got the mmf 7 today along with a onix x88 mod-ed 1+cd player, all i need is the tylers and finally i will be rocking again, checked the mmf 7 out and its a real looker, i am sure its going to be a great table, my thorens td125 sme9 with a blue point special was sweet, i had a denon 3910 as my cd player so its going to be interesting to see how the mod-ed x88 sounds to the denon,