I’m very disappointed. First off let me say that I am a very big fan of Outlaw Audio. Any one who has been here a while (a long while) and read my comments can tell you that statment is the truth with out question. I currently own an Outlaw 950/7100 combo I love it and I have defended the quality of their products on other forums (i.e.: AVS and others) and have told everyone who ask about Outlaw Audio; the true pleasure it has been to own such quality equipment well worth more than their asking price IMHO. “But” (and this is a BIG BUT) the new Outlaw 990 IMHO was a slap in the face to all the old time Outlaw Audio supporters (I’m surprised Gonk never noticed or said anything He’s been here longer than me and may very well be the only bigger Outlaw fan than me that I know of…lol).

For the last 3-5 years or so Outlaw Audio has been issuing newsletters telling their loyal following that they have had a new Pre/Pro in the works, The so called “Big Brother” to the 950. A true “High End” piece. I have no doubt this was true and in the works at the time they made these statements, but what we have ended up with is far from the truth intended in those statements. My question is: Where is the new Outlaw Audio Pre/Pro??!! I find it very hard to believe that the 990 is the best they could do in 4-5 years.(The Sherwood P-965 has not been on the marked that long)
Now Please don’t get me wrong, I do completely understand why they did it; but that is really no excuse for the mass market, quick fix (read profit margin) BS.

The way I see it and please keep in mind this is IMHO and The Outlaws are welcome to correct me if I’m wrong.
Outlaw was within 6-10mts of releasing the new 1070 Receiver. That action would have effectively killed the sales of their 950 Pre/Pro( I commented before when the 1070 was first announced that releasing a new Receiver with a more advanced feature set than their current top of the line Pre/Pro would be a very bad financial move) They needed something fast to fill the void. Their solution was the Sherwood P-965, (next up on the price chart from the 950 and already receiving rave reviews) just 1 or 2 mods and you’ve got the Outlaw 990. Now don’t get me wrong I have no doubt that the 990 is an excellent sounding piece of gear. Over a year ago I auditioned the new Sherwood P-965 at one of my local A/V dealers and commented about how nice it looked and sounded on this forum.
My biggest complaint is not with the sound or build quality of this product, my complaint is that the 990 is not what we have been promised since the release of the 950. It is not an original Outlaw product! It is a reworked Sherwood product. Not even close to the Outlaw product that has (as we were led to believe) been in the works for 4-5 years. It is nothing more that a Sherwood P-965 with balanced outputs and a reworked menu system (maybe a few other things that I won't go into, but you all should get my point, not an Outlaw only design like the 950 by any means). That to me that is an insult. It did not take IMHO (nor did I wait) 4-5 years for them to rebadge someone else’s product! If I wanted a P-965 I would have bought one over a year ago!! One of the things about Outlaw Audio that I Loved (and still do. I have not given up on them by any means) so much was that they set the bar (performance vs. $$) and made other companies scramble to copy their gear, and ideas. Not the other way around. There was no competition. (The worst anyone could ever say about my 950 is they thought it was ugly and they didn’t like the “big green power button”)

I sincerely hope I have not offended other Outlaws on this forum, but I have always tried to give my honest opinion (and best advice) on this forum and I don’t think Outlaw Audio or any true fans of their products would want this forum any other way. All I can say is I hope the Outlaws have not given up on their new Outlaw exclusive designed Pre/Pro because I haven’t given up on them and I am still waiting.

Lasher

By that Logic, it's also a Boston Acoustics pre/pro. According to previous posts in this forum, all three are based on a platform (if you will) developed by a manufacturer called Etronics (sp?). From said posts, it seems that Outlaw did, in fact, actively design the unit using the basic structure, but to what extent there are differences is a topic for the better informed.

Considering the size of the 990, and the fact that BA already uses this platform for a receiver, does anyone else suspect that a bigger, badder Outlaw receiver may be in the pipe?

I started to write a long answer to this, but it's far too late as I sit here at work and wait on a server to finish getting over some hardware troubles.

The Model 1050, 950, and 1070 have been developed by Outlaw from scratch in conjunction with Eastech. This process is very time consuming (as both the 950 and 1070 have proven). The Model 990 is a highly modified cousin of the Etronics/Sherwood P-965, with those fairly numerous modifications stemming from Outlaw's effort to develop what ended up being both big brother and successor to the 950. It would have been cool for Outlaw to have both the 950 and 990 on the market at once, but the price spread between them and the feature set differences would have made for an odd product offering - hence the decision to retire the three-year-old 950. Had Outlaw done what Boston Acoustics appears to have done (whip up a new faceplate for the P-965/R-965 and hang their name on it), I would have been a little disappointed - but considering the refinements made to the P-965 platform for the Model 990, I'm quite pleased with the arrangement.

Now, to try to figure out if I can get any more done with this server before I have to go to sleep...

Lasher:

The great thing about this place is that people will discuss what you say, no one should bash you about your opinion, expressed as you see it.

However, I guess I have to take a bit of an issue with your comment about the "promises for 3 to 5 years for a high-end pre-pro". While it IS true that there was talk of such a product as a step-up from the 950, but that hasn't been mentioned in recent months -- or years.

From another view, whether the 990 is "high end" or not is in the eyes -- and ears -- of the beholder. Not high end in terms of price, and by the Outlaw's own admission, not developed by them from the ground up (as the 1050, 950 and 1070 were and the RR 2150 will be) but it certainlly has features and performance well beyond that of the 950 and differentiated by way of DVI, balanced outputs and the menu system from other products based on the same platform.

For my $$$ I guess I'm cutting the Outlaws a bit of slack since doing a true, high-end processor must be an incredible task if you don't base it on something that is pre-existing. Maybe the volume needed to do it isn't there. Maybe they ARE working on such a product, but seeing what is coming down the road have held back to really do a no holds barred type of piece. Only the Outlaws know for sure.

Hang in there; you never know what they might come up with. To some extent, though it isn't multi-channel, I'd bet that to some ears they may be in the high end realm with the 2150. That's what I'm waiting for.

I read with interest your post reminding everyone of the promised product that would be delivered to all waiting Outlaws. I was another who purchased the 950 and waited years for the second coming. I find it amusing that Sherwood used their research and development money to develop the final 965 product and bring it to market. This process took years and many man hours and plenty of money. Outlaw waited for the product to come to market, opened up the 965 box and see what made it tick. They were able to upgrade options and introduce the new Outlaw 990 product in only months. This is something that every business must do when the competition is moving forward with product. The great thing is Outlaw brought it to market at a bargain price with better innovations, and the money saved on R & D can be used for the betterment of other Outlaw products waiting to be released. This time being a Outlaw feels good in my wallet.

well newsletter came out,maybe something there 4 ya.

i heard locally 'someone from KINERGETICS was in on the design of outlaw amps.'

any truth to the rumor?

the guy i talked to was overly impressed with outlaw amps.

As I said in response to your other post, I believe Outlaw's amps are designed in partnership with ATI, and manufactured by them as well.

It's possible someone else was involved, but I know not of Kinergetics.

What specifically are you waiting for? Something "exclusive"? The reason I'm asking is because you don't mention anything else that is disappointing you about the 990. Is exclusivity such an important feature for you?

Let me ask another way. Suppose Outlaw came out with a product with the features you wanted (and then some) at a comfortable price point, making you happy with to total package. Would your happiness turn to disappointment IF it turned out that similar products existed (either before or after the Outlaw unit)?

Like I said, the only reason I'm asking is because you haven't mentioned anything else that disappointed you about the 990 except for its lack of exclusivity. If a particular product meets your needs, why is it important to you that another company not have a similar product?

sdurani:

I'm not really waiting for anything. I'm still very happy with my 950. I never said that I was disappointed with the 990. What bothered me was that there is no way the 990 is the product they have been telling us about for the last few years. I think the 990 looks to be a wonderful piece and would recommend it to anyone who asks. The only thing I don't like about it is the lack of analog bass management but that has nothing to do with my original post. Most likely if I were in the market for a new pre/pro I would buy the 990 so please don't misunderstand my statements. I meant no offence to anyone.

Lasher

i own the 990 and am very impressed .. so they saved money on the box... the components inside make the difference.. for instance some fellows take the old adcom 545 and 555 amps and do a 200 to 300 $$ upgrade on the power supply and capacitors and you have a way better unit.. the (box ) means nothing.. as was stated earlier the sherwood and Boston use it as well .. one great example of same shell diff components even though they were car audio was the orion company .. the black 2150 the red hcca 50 and the nt 4 .. were the same shell but were 1000$ 1750 and 2000.. just by changing caps and resitors etc..

and yes outlaw uses some help from ATI on their amps .. i use a ATI 1506 with my 990 and love them together .. and believe me ATI makes great equipt ..

bottom line i think is outlaw is trying to give us the best for the lowest $ they can .. if it shaved 100$ off of the unit $ to use a already in production shell compared to doing R & D and coming up with thier exclusive shell good .. or maybe they put that 100 into the dvi switching or balanced outputs or better bass management .. these are more important than the shell .. and well outlaws 950 wasnt known for its sleek looks ..the only downfalls in reviews i heard was the looks so maybe thats why they did it..

bottom line .. dont be (disapointed) due to the fact they used a case already designed .. believe me its all high quality outlaw inside..

lasher .. please dont take my last post as derogatory towards you original post .. i'm just trying to explain the many reasons they may have went that route.. just because its in the shell that just came out in the last year doesnt mean they havent been r & D on the internals for the last 3 years ..

The most obvious explanation that comes to my mind is actually the most common. In the world of business, sometimes the environment changes and you have to adjust your priorities/strategies/PRODUCTS accordingly. It's entirely possible that the Outlaws decided to cut bait on the product originally described and use an outside-designed platform for the 990.

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. The 990 is feature competitive with the best units available (at any price) for a home theater processor and it appears to have no competition whatsoever in its price range when you consider the feature set. So who cares if it's the original concept that the Outlaws sketched onto a napkin at a trade show or not? Why is that an issue for you?

Cheers,

I passed on the 990. It was just not enough of an upgrade to my 950. Was the 990 not good enough or the 950 too good? I'll leave that up to you. For me to upgrade I would need to have a better LED display and an on screen display that would be visible through all inputs, a smaller box, HDMI switching and converting of the signal from anything to anything, and a mute button that stayed muted as long as you didn't press the mute button again.

The 990 actually has this...

Mine drops out of mute if I hit the volume control. Is that not how it's supposed to work?

MeanGene was referring to changing inputs, I thought - the 950 would un-mute when the input was changed, while the 990 retains mute even when the input is changed.

Actually I was referring to both. If I want it muted, I'll press the mute button. When I want if off mute then I'll press the mute button again. I don't want any other functions to un-mute the device, period. I think that it is completely illogical to have the system un-mute without using the mute button. The current setup reduces the choices available. The main one being able to adjust the volume level without un-muting it. This is just one of those things that's been done wrong for so long that everyone things it right now.

Having the 990 stay muted when changing inputs has been a welcome change for me. Tonygeno is absolutely right that keeping mute on while changing volume is not included on the 990, but as you say it's been done the "standard" way for so long (by which I mean that changing volume un-mutes) that most people would probably be confused if it didn't work that way - inertia is a powerful thing, probably approaching too powerful to grant much room for change in this case. The reasoning that I've always assumed for this behavior (which has been present on every component I've owned that had a mute button, as far as I can recall, which may be why I have this rationale in my head) was that volume control encompassed both the up/down controls and the mute control, such that if I asked for the volume to be changed it was assumed that I also wanted to hear it. But who knows, maybe the Model 995 will prove me wrong and include the "MeanGene mute."

Hopefully the Outlaws with right this injustice.

Here is an example of the non choice:

You are listening to your system at reference level and the phone rings you mute the system, you pick up the phone, it's not for you, it's for your spouse. Your spouse starts talking and now what do you do? You have no choice but to wait it out. (and it's your mother in-law - how long will that take?) Turn off the system? - it will un-mute at 0dB and the next time you turn it on it will be running at 0dB, switch to another input - runs at 0dB, trying to quickly turn in down - comes on at 0dB until you frantically jab at the - button until -30 or something. If you could turn down the system while it was muted, you would then have the choice to do so, a choice that you currently do not have. That's the point I was making.

*shrug*

This is a non-issue. If my mother-in-law calls, I want the mute function to sense my angst automatically and switch to 0dB.

I agree that the idea has some definite merit. While we can always come up with workarounds for any problem (such as hopping to an empty input or an input with a source that's not turned on to make the volume change, assuming the current source can't be paused), they are still workarounds. We'll have to see what the Outlaws come up with next time, won't we?

Personally, I want the volume buttons to un-mute. That's a good way for things to work when you have no way of telling if you are on mute, or your volume is at zero. Otherwise, you would have to hit mute, try to raise the volume a bunch, then if that didn't work, hit mute again and try to raise the volume a bunch.

I'm with MeanGene on this one. A Mute circuit should be independent from the volume. A feature that might be nice tied to the volume would be an attenuation circuit. When you hit the attenuation button volume would drop back say 20dB and any adjustment to the volume would then pickup at that point.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a meta control either on the back of the box or via the Menu that lets you change the behavior of the Mute button: setting A (Full Mute): nothing unsets the mute function except the mute button; setting B (Partial Mute): nothing unsets the mute function except the mute button or the volume control. Seems like there are valid reasons for both behaviors, so why not have the behavior user settable?

How about if the remotes came with a mute buttom that lit up and/or was depressed when on? Maybe including a music symbol with a line through it on screen, given that the OSD would be available through all inputs (see my first post). I am assuming you can't see the blinking amber lite on the pre/pro as in the case of the 950.

In addition another choice you don't have is being able to not change the volume to un-mute the system. You may think un-muting through the volume key is saving a key press by not having to hit the mute button again. But you actually need to raise or lower the volume 1 dB and then hit the volume adjustment again to bring it back to the level you had it before, thus requiring you to hit the key pad twice to un-mute instead of once for the un-mute button.

I find it interesting to try and solve this issue in a way that would work for everyone. There are options that could be missed by a single person and this discussion has brought some of them to light. I hope the people that could change this are reading and use this information to make their products better.

Let's see if we can consolidate a list of know attributes we would like the Mute button to have or not have. Please feel free to add/edit this list.

• Ability to identify if the system is muted in a variety of ways.
• Ability to change volume without un-muting.
• Ability to select pre-set volume levels while muted.
• Ability to configure all of this to your own desire.

Thinking some more about it. In addition to the other requests, how about a setting that allows a gradient level increase of volume when un-muting. I have to explain it this way. When you mute the sound it goes all the way off immediately. Then when you un-mute the sound it starts out 5 dB lower and slowly increases back to the original level in say 2 or 3 seconds. This would be a little easier on the ears and equipment.

mene gene .. go with a soundproofed HT room then you wont bother anyone !! JK .. i understand your point.. i like units that when muted if you push mute again it goes where it was but if you use volume up from mute it starts at a way lower output level .. actually my alpine head unit does this .. so if you are rocking and push mute as long as you hit vol up or down it doesnt go back to the rocking level ...

My Alpine unit works the same way, it really is just a 20dB attenuation for the mute. I also think the units should have a silent mute.

my panasonic head unit does the same,from the remote also.and my home remote has a 'commercial mute' macro that you program for the amount of att. you want.press once,vol.goes down,press again vol.goes back up.BUT,if you forget to use it to turn the volume back up,you are in for a rude awakening next time you use it!

i stopped using it.

Hi,

I am considering a 990 upgrade from my 950. I have a few questions:

1) Is the upgrade worth it? Where does the 990 trump 950 performance? The convenience features, DVI switching, balanced output etc. is not very important to me at this time.
2) Mute: Does the mute gradually decrease and increase volume when activated or de-activated?

I also endorse the idea of being able to adjust volume or change inputs without automatically un-muting.

Hi jimr - not having owned a 950 I can't tell you whether the upgrade is worth it, but the 990's sound is sure an upgrade from my 18-year-old Adcom TPA-500, even on the phono input (which I seem to be the only one here who's still using). But on your mute questions: the 990's mute doesn't gradually decrease or increase volume when activated or de-activated, and you can change inputs but not adjust volume while muted.

Hope this helps.

I haven't been here in a while simply because I have my Outlaw Audio system (950/770/LFM1) and am extremely happy with it. In my opinion Outlaw Audio hasn't released anything worth talking about since that "original" gear. The 990 isn't a significant enough improvement over the 950 to warrant my interest.

I think it's a matter of your needs. The 950 was, and is, still a great sounding processor. As a newer design, the 990 adds some things that are relevant to many, while others are correct that the 950 still meets their needs. I'd take the 990 for the lip sync delay that is a real key item thanks to the delay caused by my digital TV and cable box+PVR, the USB port to connect PC audio for new stuff while the phono input gives you a chance to still play records. DVI is a big plus and the upgrade port certainlly gives you something to guard against the future.

YMMV

PodBoy, you make some good points. I would have rather seen Outlaw keep the original gear and the original style, which I prefer to the new style. They would have to update the 950 from time to time with a "950 Version 2,3" etc. Then release a higher-end pre-pro comparable to, say, the AVM 30. I'd buy a higher-end unit from Outlaw, but not the current 990.

Worldwide:

I think the problem with what you are suggesting is that it reaches a point where to add some of the features that might well make a "Version 2.0" of the 950 you get to the point where the total underlying hardare platform has to be re-done, and at that point you want to promote the benefits of teh new model. When you look at the 950 vs 990, there are likely to be many subtle, yet important things that we don't know about that contribute to the total pacakge. For example, we DO know that the processor is different, and presumably the ADC and DACs as well. Once you start changing those guys and add what is needed for all the other new features you really DO get a new product. If you only promoted it as "Version 2.0" I doubt you'd get the sales you wanted. It's still a amtter of choice about the 950 vs 990, and that is as much a tribute to the 950 as anything else.