I don't know about crappy but THX certified speaker wire from Monster seems marketing driven.

If you know that's not an apples to apples comparison, why did you make it? THX certification for computer speakers is completely different from their certification for home theatre speakers. Have you compared your Klipsch computer speakers to non-THX certified computer speakers around the same price range? If so, do the Klipsch sound like crap in comparison? What's crappy about Creative Labs sound cards? Do they sound really crappy compared to non-THX sound cards? What makes the Kenwood unit crap compared to other $350 receivers? Do other similarly priced non-THX receivers throw a significantly better soundstage? This makes THX wire crap? Is it that much worse than other wire? Are other brand-name wire products not market driven?

Folks, I'm not trying to be flippant. There seems to be very, very strong opinions amongst some of us that THX is crap. I'd really like to know how horrible these THX products sound versus non-THX products in the same category. So far no one has explained what makes these THX products crappy compared to their non-THX counterparts.

It was not, so much, feeling that I was attacked, but rather, the factual information that I was attempting to provide to the less informed, that they might draw a more educated conclusion, based upon facts, rather than conjecture and/or opinion. I feel this to be an important point; to draw distinction between fact and opinion. I offer an quote of Kosman - “Thanks guys, I guess you all have put that myth to bed.” NO MYTH was “put to bed”! Real or opined! How on Earth can poor Kosman, (or any other newcommer to these pages, for that matter) arrive at any meaningful conclusions, when what he is given, in place of factual information, is biased, opinionated conjecture from the seemingly-informed. I say ‘seemingly-informed’ as those that make these jaded, fallacious, opinionated comments do so without regard of facts, or their personal responsibility to other forum members. PodBoy was the first to respond, and did so (at first) in an informationally helpful manner. Concise, accurate, no B.S.

Gonk is a member that seems to typically have his facts straight before he starts to type and, whether he is aware of it or not, he is admired for his (truely) helpful approach in this forum. And so, I will take this opportunity to publically thank you, Gonk for all of your tireless effort within these pages! The Outlaw Audio Forum would be a much lesser place in your absence.

This leads me to another point of contention; I feel (have always felt) that I (we) possess a responsibility to my (our) fellow members of this forum, that when we are asked a question in good faith (aside from an obvious jest) I (we) would do well to give as factually informative a response as I (we) are capable of providing, unless I (we) am (are) invited to speculation. But, that's just me.

A fair statement, to be sure. Although, the THX performance criteria is in no way concerned with a given product’s quality, as THX has no control over what a manufacturer succeeds, or fails to do to meet this phantom specification of "quality" that everyone keeps harping-on about. It simply does not exist, and I defy anyone to PROVE this statement a falsehood! And, this merely serves to bring my arguement around again to the contention that peoples opinions are holding sway in this discussion. NOT FACTS!!

Believe me, I am well aware that the majority, if not all of the forum participants feel that “it's a lot more marketing-heavy than technical-heavy”, and that “Had they stuck to their high-end criteria only, I think many of us would have more respect for the mark”. Whether anyone “has respect for the mark”, or not, is of utterly no concern to me. What is of tremendous concern to me, however, is this forum’s complete and utter disregard for FACTS!!! And, so far as I can see, I am alone in being willing and/or able to produce any, or that cares either way.

Not being present at a single share-holders meeting, I would prefer not to speculate as to any political motives or goings-on therein. It may be just as you have said. It may not. Only one thing is for certain; there is no way to know for sure, either way. My first impression would be that, being a business, they probably want to generate as many streams of income (diversify) as much as they are able. I don’t nessessarily see this as being a bad thing. Capitolism is good... just ask Gordon Geko.

As for the mis-adventures of “Joe Sixpack”; if $200 is all that Mr. Sixpack is willing to spend, and Mr. Sixpack believes that the “local big box” is the place to find anything of quality, well... you know what they say about a fool and his money.

Now, as far as Lucas lining his pockets with the licensing fees; I cannot speak for anyone else but, I look after my financial interests on a daily basis. So, as I see it, how could I, (without hypocracy) begrudge Lucas for doing the same? So, what are we really talking about here? I mean, is it that poor old Joe got “ripped-off”, or that the “evil” capitolist, George Lucas, made money?

I do agree that an unqualified “my unit is THX certified” has a potential for being technically meaningless. It’s just that, I don’t believe that that is indeed the case, in any prevalent way. Then again, that is only my opinion, and I admit that I cannot factually refute it. “dearth of junk”... I like the way you put that! I, personally would never shop for anything of quality at a “big box”. I am a firm believer that ‘one gets what one is willing to pay for’.

Does anyone reading this think, for a single moment, that Dolby Laboratories or Digital Theater Systems (DTS) don’t receive a review sample of each and every product that bears their technologies, and their company’s logo?! Does anyone believe that they don't charge a fee for the use of their technologies and logo copyright in a consumer product?! Both have huge warehouses where they store each and every sample sent to them. And, you don’t have to take my word for it. Ask Scott, our forum Moderator if Outlaw has to submit samples to both for technical-specification review.

Now, for the sake of arguement, let us imagine that both of these fine organizations receive a review sample that is (purely by coincidence) also THX certified. Let us also assume that this unit is, to coin a phrase, “a piece of crap”. Okay, so the cover is off the unit, very dire-looking men in white lab coates hover, poking around inside, performing all sorts of technically meaningful tests, and through all of this, not so much as once did they test the unit for sound quality. Those bastards! How in the world could they allow their company’s name to go on that piece of “crap”?! I mean, it was right there, they tested it. Why’d they “certify” that piece of “crap??!!

Wait though, it passed spec, right? And besides, “they” didn’t design it. Brand “XYZ” did that. “They” didn’t build it either. Again, “XYZ”. But then, why aren’t “they” (Dolby or DTS) to blame for the unit’s decided “crappiness”? What? Oooooh, because the issue of sound quality isn’t part of “their” company's criteria of performance tests? Oooooh. Well, in that case I think that we can all consider them exhonorated, and relieved of any and all resposibilities there of. After all, it was never “their” job, was it?

So, who to blame? Aaaaah, it must be the manufacturers fault then! No?! But, why not? “XYZ” designed, built and are going to market it, aren’t they? Hmmmmm. Well, if niether Dolby, DTS nor “XYZ” can be blamed, then whom shall we blame??!! Oooooh, THX!! Hey, good idea! I hear that the “evil” capitolist, George Lucas, is a multi-millionare, maybe even a billionare! Yeah, let’s blame him. He’s an easy target. Besides, everybody hates that guy. Yeah, he ruined Star Wars!!! :rolleyes:

The previously illustrated scenario is nothing more than my opinion of the way many think, (or, at least, react, which is essentially the same thing) in regards to the facts of this subject. The reasoning behind it seems, at best, illogical and perplexing. But, never the less... there it is.

In the end, what it all amounts to is that niether Dolby, DTS nor THX give a “rodent’s rectum” about the “quality” of sound reproduction from any product that passes their spec parameters. What's more, it is appearent that some manufacturers care as little and, for what it's worth, I feel confident in saying that it is with the manufacturer, that the burden of sound quality lies, not with Dolby, DTS or THX. For any of these companies to be concerned with anything beyond the scope of what they’re being paid to do, is to risk the loss of revenue. And, when one is in business, losing money is never considered acceptable. Whether the philosophical conotations of these cold, hard facts are of any moral significance.... I leave that to the reader to decide for themselves.

My sincere apologies, and thanks to Prefect. I'm sorry that your post was the one I drew as my "jumping-off point".


Wayne

Sanjay,
Ok, so I re-read your question. You specifically ask for "crappy" hardware that is THX badged. So based on this, I must retract my response to your question. But since I'm here, I will answer the question you pose in your response: I listened to several different sets of computer speakers prior to buying the ones that I have now. Some were "THX certified" and some were not. Not all the THX certified speakers sounded better than ones that weren't certified. It just so happened that in my price range, the Klipsch were the ones that had most of what I was looking for while sounding pretty good.

When I made the comment "not apples to apples", I meant that computer speakers aren't pre/pros. At the same time, you didn't specifically ask for "crappy pre/pros" that are THX badged. In all fairness, you left it pretty open.

Later,
Simp

So again, since you posted the data, your opinion is the only one that counts. Wayne, I've read all of your posted data, in addition to plenty of their literature over the years, and I own equipment with the badge as well. However, my opinion is somehow invalid in your eyes. Why should anyone be hesitant to post an opinion here, uninformed or otherwise according to you, just because they're not as informed as you?

If facts were all that mattered here, then your posting of the THX spec sheet way back would have been enough to convince by itself.

Isn't your personal responsibility to other forum members to be civil, as well? Even new readers should be able to discern between fact and opinion, after all, we are adults. How can you expect any readers, especially new ones. to have respect for your "facts" when you lace your responses with insults and wild accusations for those who post uninvited speculation?

Simp,

Yes, I did leave my question wide open so as not to limit the categories when people replied.

What I didn't expect was that people would compare a THX item from one category (computer speakers) to non-THX gear from another category (home theatre) when the certifications for each category is very different.

That's about as fair as saying THX speakers have crappy bass response but neglecting to mention that the 80Hz roll-off is a specific design element and not a limitation of the speaker manufacturer's capabilities.

Mention of THX seems to bring out strong emotions in people, not just at The Saloon but on practically every A/V forum, and I have yet to figure out why. I can understand why double blind testing would upset certain people; but a certification process? Like I said, I'm really curious about the claims of crap products being able to get the THX badge.

Sanjay,
Fair enough. No hard feelings? Should have read your question more carefully. I'm certainly no expert when it comes to the THX certification process or guidelines and the lack of THX certification on every piece of my H/T gear except my amp certainly hasn't taken away from the enjoyment I get from sittin' down to watch a movie or listen to some tunes.

Cheers,
Simp

What I have heard from high end shops that sell products like Rotel and Arcam is that these companies use their own algorithms that don't require THX licensing, but fulfill the same funtions. This allows more money to be spent on decent power supplies and other interior components. Having done A/B comparisons between similar units with and without THX, THX has not been much of a facter for me in either direction.

I'm pretty sure no one here thinks a THX badge assures a poor performing device. Rather, it seems the assertion was that lacking a THX logo does not preclude a device from performing very well, and in fact that some non-logo bearing devices might outperform or at least equal similarly priced or comparable THX certified devices.

Now kids, all of you should go have a drink.

Well, Rotel uses Dolby and DTS, and prior to Dolby Pro Logic IIx they also used a Rotel-branded version of Cirrus's surround back processing (very similar to the "Cirrus Extra Surround" offered on the Model 950), but otherwise I think the explanation you were given is pretty accurate.

Here's what I think it boils down to, for what it's worth. THX has provided some valuable specifications and guidance to the home theater industry. Not only did THX help identify good hardware in home theater's earlier days, but THX helped identify design issues that needed to be addressed in all home theater equipment, thereby benefiting all of us in at least some form. Even today they can be useful, both in a review role for some very impressive THX-approved hardware and in helping keep pressure on the industry to maintain high standards. For those reasons, dismissing them outright is unreasonable, even if their marketing program's growth (computer speakers, Monster speaker wire) may have diluted some of the perceived prestige of the brand. At the same time, classifying THX as a core feature or equating it to Dolby or DTS is also unreasonable. DVD owners who want surround sound need Dolby Digital and DTS, because those are the data formats in which digital audio is stored on DVD's, whereas there is no THX audio format that requires THX-listed hardware to decode. There is a wealth of excellent quality hardware on the market that lacks the THX logo - often that hardware represents a particularly good value for the consumer in part because the manufacturer elected not to pursue THX licensing, thereby keeping costs down and offering a little extra savings for the consumer. I think at least some of the seemingly anti-THX activity online stems from people who don't want newcomers to the hobby to deprive themselves of the opportunity to discover some of those great values due to an over-emphasis on the THX logo.