Wayne - no one, from what I've read here, is in any way trying to disparage your own equipment choices or level of knowledge about your passion. I think you may be taking this more personally than the situation warrants.

However, as one of your aforementioned...

"more recently "outspoken/opinionated" contributers to this forum (I will not name names as you know who you are and, some of you being relatively new to the forum) have not/do not, post this same information in the same spirit. And that's a shame, really, as it illaffords the opportunity for others to be critical of your buying dicisions"

...I would have to say that, if putting my equipment choices out there is to facilitate criticism, then I am perfectly justified in not doing so, and so would you be! Moreover, a negative opinion of THX does not reflect upon your equipment or choices, but in fact reflects on the choices of the person with said opinion. You alone know the value of what you have put into your system, and the opinions of others (such as myself) here shouldn't detract from that.

Wayne, you, like only a few others in this forum, have been a regular and positive contributor here for as long as I've been reading. I would hate to see that change due to this thread, and I apologize for my own part if any of my responses have been offputting, since I know I have responded with distinct sarcasm at least once here. I would hope you feel the same way, and hope that you would reconsider and continue to join in the debate here with me.

Originally posted by Ritz:
I apologize if I misrepresented myself, to any and all non-offending members of this forum, in regards to what my personal opinion of the current crop of Home THX certified components is, and I'll get to that at a future time.

Up until this point, (in this particular thread) I have been concerned with providing (and defending) factual information relating to the Home THX program. I am regretful if my posts left any impressions that I feel "that THX certification is any indicator of overall quality of sound reproduction". In fact, I do not, (can not) as (if one looks at the affor-posted THX performance criteria lists) "overall quality of sound reproduction" (or the like) does not appear. THX makes no claims that a certified product will perform better than one comparabley non-certified, but that it has passed "muster" in contrast to their specified criteria for performance. In this respect, a potential consumer must still do some "shopping" in regards to "overall quality of sound reproduction".

Realistically, how could THX make such a claim? Technically, the only claim THX makes for certified products is that they have, in fact, been certified to the requirements (and only the requirements) of the certification specs, themselves. Certification (technically) has nothing to do with "quality of sound", and everything to do with meeting a "standard of minimum performance".


Alas, even if I were "in the mood", I hardly believe that "Best Buy or Circuit City or other electronics superstore " would be an appropriate setting to conduct any meaningful assesment of a given products sound quality. But, I hear what you're saying.


I agree, completely. It's just that the tone of some previous posts in this thread lays the blame for this on THX, which simply is not the case. It's very much like blamming the U.S.D.A. for inspecting and passing meat that the butcher allowed to spoil!


I don't, and I couldn't agree more.


Wayne

In this case, however, THX is not a universal standard, but again, a private certification, and as such they are the onlyones to blame. If their standards are such that a crappy receiver can meet them, then it comes across more of a licensing program than an indicator of quality.

While this by no means makes THX crap, the issue that I stand by here is that THX certification no longer precludes crap, like THX did when first introduced. The splintering of the certification, in my opinion, fosters consumer confusion and a watering down of its purpose, which is to ensure a quality experience for the discerning consumer.

Do I read you correctly?! Are you actually stating that the designer, manufacturer and marketer of the product itself bears no blame or responsability??!! As to your second sentence; take a close look at the certification criteria lists that I posted here previously. Do you, anywhere see the word “quality” within the parameter list itself? NO?! Can you imagine, for a moment, exactly why that would be? I can. Because THX is not testing for quality! They are testing only for a given manufacturer’s product’s ability to meet specs!! The responsibility of quality of sound reproduction falls to the manufacturer, EXACTLY as it does for non-THX certified equipment!

Once again, Greg, you don’t have your facts straight. I can (and just did) empirically prove my points with real, hard, verifiable, provable FACTS. You can’t, or at least, up to the present, haven’t. Is it, perhaps, that you are, for what ever reason, unconcerned with reality, or that, again, for what ever reason, you are never wrong? As a personal favor, (even though you may feel I am undeserving) think about that. Please.

Quote:

While this by no means makes THX crap, the issue that I stand by here is that THX certification no longer precludes crap, like THX did when first introduced. The splintering of the certification, in my opinion, fosters consumer confusion and a watering down of its purpose, which is to ensure a quality experience for the discerning consumer.

Again, your assumption is that THX certification ever DID “preclude crap”. The fact is, in 1990, at the start, THX certification only attracted manufacturers of the “High-End”, as the “High-End” manufacturers were the only ones that could, at the time, affordabley implement the specifications! And again, scan the certification criteria lists for where “crap” is a parameter whereby certification suitability is judged. Wait. Let me save you some time. DON’T BOTHER, ‘CAUSE IT AIN’T THERE!!

As to the first part of your second sentence, and your stated “opinion”; (and, make no mistake, personal opinion is the only thing you’ve had to argue with the entire course of this thread) I agree that there does, without question, definitely exist a great deal of “consumer confusion” surrounding the reality versus myth of exactly what “THX Certified” truly, FACTUALLY guarantees, and what it does not. And, what it guarantees to do, (and only what it guaratees to do) it does.

As to the second part of your second sentence; Once again, you proceed from a false assumption. Be so kind as to provide the source of the THX statement of “purpose” that reads “is to ensure a quality experience for the discerning consumer”. In all the years I have followed the Home THX program, never have I read those words together in any issued statement. So please, be so kind.

Further, exactly how “discerning” can Mr. or Mrs. “Consumer” be if they purchase an audio product without first listening to it, basing their decision soley on some fancy “badge” stenciled on the front of the unit? If this is the case, it would appear that Mr. or Mrs. “Consumer” weren’t really all that “ discerning”, after all, in which case... why should it matter?


Wayne

Your enthusiasm is admirable here, Wayne, but your combative approach is misplaced.

This doesn't need to be personal Wayne, and your opinion is no more valid simply because you have read and posted numerous THX press releases. Do not assume you know me at all from reading my posts. And more succinctly, do not put words in my mouth/keyboard - if I didn't write it, do not accuse me of it - unless you yourself are "unconcerned with reality."

Wayne, for someone who "cannot... will not tolerate...to be dismissed out of hand," you can certainly dish out. If THX isn't a quality standard, then why do they claim, (and I quote from your quoted PR) "The company’s certification programs and technologies deliver the ultimate entertainment experience, providing superior playback of movies, music and games"? Are "superior" and "ultimate" no longer indicative of a quality standard, but instead now indicative of, as you say, "a 'standard of minimum performance.'"?

Again, you assume my "opinion" is all I have. How many THX Ultra products do I need in my home, or how many THX specs do I need to read, to have a valid opinion in your eyes?

Again, because I don't quote from a press release, I'm wrong. Refer to above THX quote about quality.

People in this forum do just that based upon the Outlaw name. Are we all, therefore, not discerning? To answer your question, if the THX badge wasn't perceived as a quality standard, then why would any company ever pay the fee to have it on a budget-level receiver? Do you think most consumers at that level would look for THX at all if it wasn't perceived that way?

If I may summarize my view:

1. If meeting the THX spec doesn't preclude "crap" then the spec isn't terribly useful for people using it as a barometer of minimum audio/visual quality. That suggests that the standard is too forgiving or that the THX folks are more interested in licensing revenue than quality (or both?).

2. There's good THX certified gear out there and there's some pretty cheesy stuff that I wouldn't consider high fidelity at all.

3. Lack of THX certification simiply means the company producing the equipment doesn't feel their customers want/need that decal on their equipment to feel that they're getting "that cinema experience". It has no bearing on usability or sonic/visual quality whatsoever.

Frankly, I feel the spec/certification/whatever is rather useless for an educated buyer. If Lucas comes out with some revolutionary encoding technique that "brings movies to life" better than Dolby Digital or DTS and it is only available to THX licensees, then MAYBE I'll consider it a must-have. Until then, I think it's more about marketing than about quality.

I don't know what it actually costs to get a piece of equipment certified and suitably licensed. But I suspect that it's not THAT cheap or everyone would do it just for the marketing bang. So I'm glad that Outlaw felt they could play the quality card without feeling the need to increase their (and our!!) costs by getting a wave of approval from Lucas.

I don't know why Wayne seems to be taking this so personally. It's a rather impersonal subject. I don't think I'd get riled up if someone chuckled about a particular ethernet RFC and my company router happened to support it. So what? That doesn't mean it's not doing its job suitably for me. Let's all just take a deep breath, have a nice big glass of wine, and relax.

Best regards,

For those that are saying that the THX standards have gotten so watered down as to be worthless, could you name some crappy items that are THX badged? Just curious.

I own a set of Klipsch computer speakers that carry a THX logo. I can't imagine listening to a movie through them and at the same time feel that I'm getting a better "theater experience" than I would in my "Outlaw controlled" theater in the basement. Not apples to apples, I know. But the said speakers DO carry the THX stamp. You asked for it....


Later,
Simp

Creative Labs sound cards.

Crap is, of course, in the ear of the beholder. Give a listen to the Kenwood unit that goes for about $350. I'd like to know if anyone else is as unimpressed with its soundstage as was I.