I know the THX family of certifications is only a spec. but why does a unit as good as the 990 fall short? Does anyone know what part of the 990 specs. fell short of the standard? Would it have been good for marketing to tweak a spec or two to get the certification?

Kos:

It isn't at all a question of "meeting the spec" or not. The fact that the 990 doesn't have THX certification was most likely a business decision on the part of the Outlaws having more to do with the time and cost invovled of obtaining THX approval, rather than anything having to do with quality or specs. No one other than the THX licensees (which, by the way, is another cost!) really know what the magic specs are, but I'll bet that if the 990 WERE matched against them, it wouldn't have any problem passing anythign relevant.

The REAL question is if the 990 has the right combination of performance and features for the price, and whether or not you (or enough people out there) would be willing to pay extra for what would be invovled in having it be a THX certified product.

The processor used in the 990 (and P-965) supports the THX overlay. As PadBoy said it is a matter of cost.

I believe it's just a matter of meeting some (easily met, in this case) basic specifications and then forking over the license fee to the stormtroopers. There is a lot of absolute crap on the market that's pretty low-end sporting the THX logo.

You got that right, including Creative Labs soundcards. Of course Creative Labs had to buy 50% of THX to get the logo.

That's why there'e now different levels of THX certification (Select, Ultra, Ultra2, Ultra BFG9000). It's kind of like a college alumni donation: 'be a century club member for only $25, or a gold club member for $50!' Either way the alma mater gets a new handicap ramp.

The fact is, the THX certification only assures one thing: if you have a THX-certified theater (that's the room itself, folks), plus all of the necessary THX-certified equipment and cabling (placed in the appropriate THX-certified feng-shui location), then your setup will sound exactly like a THX-certified theater should sound.

And that's, like, good, right?

Outlaw has consistently elected not to pursue THX certification (Ultra/Ultra2 or Select). They are far from alone - Rotel, Adcom, Sherwood, Fosgate Audionics, NAD, and Emotiva all have very good processors in my pre/pro chart and do not pursue THX certification. Could any of them pass? Absolutely - I'd wager that with no more than a little extra software to take care of THX, any of them could.

sluggo,

Pease don't take this as some sort of personal "attack" on you. I've quoted your post only as a "springboard" for my own. We are, after all, entitled to our own opinions.


I felt that, in the glaring absence of any (real) "facts", I might attempt to provide some.

Please notice the date of the press release posted below. It has not yet been a year since the THX Certified Home Theatre Program "officially" launched. The Home THX Certification Program (product certification) launched in 1990. The Theatrical THX Sound System became commercially available in 1983. The first motion picture soundtrack mixed and mastered on a Lucasfilm THX Sound System-equiped dubbing stage, was Star Wars: Episode VI; Return Of The Jedi. Mann's Chinese Theatre in Hollywood California has the historical destinction of being the first commercially certified installation and in time for the premier of "Jedi".

Below the press release, one may find a listing of the various performance criteria measured/tested against the Home THX specification/standards. Though the specs themselves are proprietary, the lists are a good indicator of some of what is looked at in candidate products.

As a final point; the conception of the Home THX Sound System (pick your flavor) was not arrived at so "your setup will sound exactly like a THX-certified theater should sound". Rather, the dubbing stage is the environment which it is attempting to mimic.


Wayne


THX™ CERTIFIED HOME THEATRE PROGRAM LAUNCHES AT CEDIA 2004


Will Provide Designers and System Integrators with Specifications for a Complete THX Certified Home Theatre Environment
SAN RAFAEL, Calif., September 8, 2004 - THX Ltd., the leading provider of technologies, certification programs and quality assurance standards for the entertainment industry, today announced the launch of the THX Certified Home Theatre program for custom home theatre installations and new residential developments. The THX Certified Home Theatre program provides designers and system integrators with audio and visual specifications for the design of dedicated home theatre rooms. For the first time, THX will afford homeowners the luxury of having a state-of-the-art THX Certified home theatre environment, a level of excellence previously reserved for film industry professionals.

By leveraging the company’s more than 20 years of expertise in film post-production, commercial cinema and studio design, and consumer electronics, the THX Certified Home Theatre program provides an optimized setting for experiencing films and other multi-media content in the home. The program will serve as an extension of the THX Certified consumer electronics and professional mixing studio programs.

"Home theater rooms with the THX Certified Home Theatre plaque on the wall will deliver an exceptional level of audio and video performance," said Joseph Lias, president of THX Ltd. "Because the THX brand represents superior quality, we are confident that the THX Certified Home Theatre program will be embraced by the professional designer and integrator communities, as well as home theatre enthusiasts."

The THX Certified Home Theatre specifications will include strict guidelines for room layout and design, acoustics, lighting, background noise, and equipment positioning and installation. To roll out this new initiative, THX will be partnering with the nation’s leading system integrators and custom designers, as well as its manufacturing partners in the consumer electronics industry. The program promises to offer dealers and integrators a premium product, enabling them to improve market share and revenues in a highly competitive industry.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


THX rigorously tests all THX Certified Home Theater Products to guarantee performance quality and usability features for:

Pre-Amplifiers and Receivers
Power Amplifiers
Speakers
DVD Players


Pre-Amplifiers and Receivers:

THX Reference Setting for Volume Controls: A key element that THX requires for receivers and pre-amps is the reference setting for volume controls. When a system is calibrated according to the manufacturer’s instructions and a movie is played back at this marked reference setting, (usually zero on the volume control), the audio experience will be at the same volume level that the movie was originally mixed and played back in a theater. To achieve THX certification, components must play at this reference level without breaking, distorting, buzzing, rattling or any other distracting effects.

*Reference Output Voltage
*Voltage Gain
*Input Impedance
*Gain Control Range
*Gain Tracking of the Master Gain Control
*Overload Source Voltage
*D.C. Bias Current at the Input
*Maximum Output Voltage of Low-Level Outputs
*Output Source Impedance
*Polarity
*D.C. Offset at the Output
*Frequency Response Deviation
*Signal Time Delay
*Noise Output Voltage
*Input Level Indicator (Clipping Indicator)
*Video Path Switching
*Video Level
*Sync Level
*Bar Tilt
*Pulse/Bar Ration
*K-Factor (K-2T)
*Frequency Response Amplitude (0.5 to 4.2 MHz)
*Group delay (0.5 to 4.2 MHz)
*Chroma Gain
*Chroma Delay
*Differential Gain
*Differential Phase
*Noise
*Video Conversion
*Harmonic Distortion and Noise
*Difference-Frequency Distortion
*Dynamic Range
*Digital Data Sampling Rate Support
*Input Mode Control and User Interface Design
*Input Mode Switching
*Automatic Detection of Data Types
*Output Modes and Post Processing
*Equalization and Tone Controls
*Signal Headroom
*Bass Management
*Filter Characteristics
*LFE Channel Level Scaling
*Loudspeaker Position Time Synchronization
*Auto Calibration
*Auto Setup
*Output Levels
*Dialogue Normalization

Power Amplifiers:

*Reference Output Voltage
*Voltage Gain
*Output Current
*Output Source Impedance
*Overload Restoring Time
*Stability with Capacitive Load
*Harmonic Distortion and Noise
*Modulation Distortion
*Difference-Frequency Distortion
*Noise Output Voltage
*Phase Response
*D.C. Offset at the Output
*Hum
*Crosstalk
*Acoustic Noise Level
*Mechanical Noise
*Input Sensitivity
*Input Impedance
*Output Impedance
*Load Impedance Range
*Voltage Output Capability
*Current Output Capability
*Transient Output Capability
*Transient Overload Recovery Time
*Asymmetrical Clipping
*Frequency Response
*Phase Response
*Phase Margin
*Time
*Total Harmonic Distortion
*Intermodulation Distortions
*SMPTE IM Distortion
*IHF IM Distortion
*DIM 30 Distortion
*Noise
*Radiated Interference
*Conducted Interference
*Crosstalk

Speakers:

*Axial Frequency Response Analysis
*Directional Characteristics
*Sensitivity
*Impedance
*Harmonic Distortion
*Low Frequency Cut Off
*Phase Angle
*Stray Magnetic Flux
*Maximum Output Level
*Acoustic Noise Level
*Polarity

DVD Players:

*Video Level
*Sync Level
*Bar Tilt
*2T K Factor
*Pulse/Bar Ratio
*Sin x/x Response
*Sin x/x Group Delay
*Chroma Level
*Composite and Y/C Chroma Delay
*Chroma Differential Gain
*Chroma Differential Phase
*Burst Amplitude Differential
*Flesh Tone Phase Error
*Luminance Linearity
*AM Chroma Noise
*PM Chroma Noise
*Chroma Correlated Noise (IM)
*Chroma Burst Frequency Leakage in Y
*Chroma Burst Frequency
*H Sync Timing

About THX Ltd.
THX Ltd. provides technologies and services for optimizing the production and playback of entertainment content in the professional and consumer markets. The company’s certification programs and technologies deliver the ultimate entertainment experience, providing superior playback of movies, music and games, and improving the interoperability of entertainment products and applications. Today, thousands of commercial cinemas, post-production studios, home entertainment products, DVDs and games have been designed and certified by THX. Founded in 1983, THX is headquartered in San Rafael, Calif. Its Digital Works office, offering quality assurance, DVD mastering and post-production services, is based in Burbank. For more information, visit www.thx.com.

Wayne -seems my point may not have been clear to you. This quote from your post:

"The THX Certified Home Theatre specifications will include strict guidelines for room layout and design, acoustics, lighting, background noise, and equipment positioning and installation."

backs up my sarcasm quite well. Moreover, whether the end result sounds like a dubbing stage or the inside of a septic tank, it still sounds "like a THX-certified theater should sound." That's fact, not opinion.

Don't take this personally, Wayne, but the press release shows something very clearly: THX is a certification, not a standard, the difference being a fee to Mr. Skywalker. If you can quantitatively state the cost benefits of full THX home theater certification to the end user, fantastic; however, as has already been said in this thread, there are plenty of products out there that meet a high standard without a big logo on them.

Wayne's list gives a good idea of what is involved in the THX certification process. It also gives you a good idea of what is involved in designing a receiver or processor (or even an amp), and just how expensive it could be to have a third party like THX "check your work." The larger companies (like Pioneer or even Denon) can afford it because economy of scale works in their favor - a THX-certified product that they bring to market will sell so many units that the THX licensing fees get spread out a lot and have less impact on the price of that product. Companies that operate at a different sort of scale - ones that sell through specialty AV dealers (Rotel, Sherwood, Adcom, and others) or online (Outlaw) can't expect to sell in the same volume, and so the licensing cost has a much greater impact on the list price of a certified product. The result is that you have some products that are designed to come with heftier price tags to begin with (Anthem's processors, Parasound and Halo processors, Lexicon) incorporating it into the price and other products that elect to omit THX.

The reason that many folks in this forum (and other online forums) tend not to get particularly worked up about the omission of THX is that we are doing a bit of cost/benefit analysis. Can we find products designed to a high standard such as THX describes without relying on the familiar THX logo to do the looking for us? Yes, we feel that we can. Do we give up the THX processing modes that would be included on a processor or receiver sporting that logo? Obviously so, although that only applies to receivers or processors - THX certified amps or DVD players don't offer anything more than the quality assurance aspects of THX. Are those processing modes worth the extra money when we still have tools such as Dolby EX (which THX EX is a close cousin of), DTS ES, or Pro Logic IIx to make use of? That's a personal choice, but many of us (including myself) don't feel that we are losing anything by sacrificing the THX modes.

I would have to put it very simply for home theater equipment of Outlaws Caliber:


THX = Waste of time and money


Regards,

Charlie

Well put, Gonk and Sluggo. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks guys, I guess you all have put that myth to bed. The myth being that THX is not needed on a quality product!

Wait, isn't the myth that THX _is_ needed to make a quality product, but the reality is that it is not?

Ya know, I've sat down thrice to repost on this thread. And twice I've abandond my attempts at it, simply because it seemed as though anything I might type wreaked of desperation, and I positively hate that, because I'm not desperate about it. Quite frankly, it really doesn't matter to me if anyone understands what I know to be the truth, or not. But, I guess I'll give it one more shot.

I am (soon to be) forty years old. I have been an audio enthusiast since the tender age of ten. Being the youngest of a "musical family", I have been a publically-performing musician since the age of sixteen, making a living as such for some twelve years. I know what sound quality is. I have owned many sound systems over the years and heard many more, none of which posessed the quality of reproduction I get from my Lucasfilm Home THX Ultra Sound System.

Now, (and this was the point I was trying to make and seems wasn't "clear" to some others) my media room (a.k.a. "livingroom") isn't Home THX certified but, it doesn't have to be in order for me (or anyone else) to own a Home THX Certified Sound System. It's what is commonly referred to as an "option". The certified equipment functions exactly the same. It doesn't seem to know that it's in a living space and provides me and mine with exceptional fidelity, regardless. I have gone to lengths to set the room up in a complimentary fashion around the system's requirements, it's true. But, nothing in the extreme. THX (now) offers the "option" of designing and installing a "dedicated" home theater by means of certification. But, it is not REQUIRED! The proof (FACT) I submit, is that this room certification "option" was not made available until September 8, 2004 and the Home THX Sound System has been available since 1990. From it's inception, the Lucasfilm Home THX Sound System was designed for use in a common, D O M E S T I C setting. There may be those who feel that I'm "splitting hairs" here but, I feel the facts support my contention.

Do I believe that Home THX is the "Alpha and Omega" of the audio/video world? NO! I happen to own several products that do not adhere to the THX "philosophy", as anyone can see by looking at my "My System" post.

Which reminds me; I stick my equipment choices right out there for all to see with every one of my postings. I have noticed that some of the more recently "outspoken/opinionated" contributers to this forum (I will not name names as you know who you are and, some of you being relatively new to the forum) have not/do not, post this same information in the same spirit. And that's a shame, really, as it illaffords the opportunity for others to be critical of your buying dicisions. Just seems a little cowardly to me, is all.

In regards to the various catagories of "(Select, Ultra, Ultra2, Ultra BFG9000)" etc. I would like to offer some factual illumination (from THX Ltd., directly) of the various performance designations and their corresponding, appropriate application within the domestic setting for which they were conceived;

"THX Ultra and THX Ultra2 Certified Products deliver top quality audio and video presentations to large home theaters. A viewing distance of approximately 12 feet/4 meters from the display to the listening position is ideal for these specifications, which translates to a 3,000 cu. ft. room.

Considered the benchmark for home theater products, THX Ultra2 offers uncompromised playback of multi-channel movies, music and games. THX Ultra2 incorporates new features and more power requirements for premium home theater receivers, pre-amplifiers, power amplifiers and speakers that can distribute an optimal soundstage across wide viewing areas in dedicated home theaters.

While THX Ultra2 Certified Products are dependent on the room size, THX Ultra Certified Products are not. THX Ultra brings high end performance to interconnects, equalizers, projection screens and DVD players, complementing the THX Ultra2 category.

Both the THX Ultra and THX Ultra2 specifications are designed for the home audio enthusiasts who demand peak performance from their equipment in their dedicated home theater, representing the best THX has to offer in one package.

THX Select and THX Select2 Certified Products deliver optimal quality audio and video presentations to small and medium sized home theaters. A viewing distance of approximately 10 feet/3 meters from the display to the listening position is best served by these specifications, which translates to a 2,000 cu. ft. room.

THX Select2 specifically addresses receivers, incorporating new features and improved noise floor performance. Based on the same values and principles of THX Ultra2, THX Select2 Certified Receivers deliver exceptional quality to smaller home theater environments.

While THX Select2 focuses on the receiver, THX Select brings superior performance to speakers and DVD players. THX Select Certified Products complement the presentation of the THX Select2 category.

Both the THX Select and THX Select2 specifications are designed to address the growing needs of the newest generation of home entertainment enthusiasts - those who crave immersive DVD, music, and video game experiences, but do not have the space for a dedicated home theater."

To quote Gonk: "we still have tools such as Dolby EX (which THX EX is a close cousin of)". Actually, it happened the other way around. Dolby EX is a close cousin of THX Surround EX, as Dolby Laboratories was "co-developer" in conjunction with THX and the actual system development was conducted through Skywalker Sound. Commercially, THX certified theaters were (for the first six months the system was available) the only place to hear the new 6.1 channel system. And, Home THX Ultra certified processing was the only (official) way to listen to it at home for the first consumer year, all by contractual agreement between THX and Dolby. Oops! There I go, splitting hairs again! :rolleyes:

Lastly, at the risk of seeming confrontational, I just want to say that; nobody likes to be played as a fool. I try my best not to do this on this, or any of the other A/V forums that I frequent. Until recently, I've not been the butt of this type of insult on the Outlaw forum. Now, if anyone thinks I'm stupid, then please, by any and all means, let him say so, forthwith. For this, I would have much more respect and would be willing to withdraw from further discussion on this forum so that all of the "smart" people can make themselves at home. It was exactly this kind of treatment that drove soundhound away. A person who many of us admired. I realize that we are going to disagree from time to time, and I enjoy good "sarcasm" as much as the next person. I would not, however, do it at the expense of someone elses pride, and I pride myself on my knowledge of THX. If there's one thing I cannot... will not tolerate is to be dismissed out of hand. I am no man's "bitch" and refuse even to be regarded as such. Respect... Give it - get it. Know what I mean?


Wayne

Wayne,

I'm glad you like your system. However, I also think I have a pretty good idea of what "good sound" sounds like, not only as a professional engineer and musician, but also as a consumer. I simply disagree with your assessment that THX certification is any indicator of overall quality of sound reproduction. It clearly isn't. Go to your neighborhood Best Buy or Circuit City or other electronics superstore and look at some of the utter rubbish that has the THX logo emblazoned on it. And if you're in the mood to challenge your perceptions, give some of that equipment a listen.

Now I'm not saying that all THX equipment is crap. That's obviously not the case either since some manufacturers who I respect and whose gear I have listened to does sound great. But that's because those companies make great equipment in general, not because it has passed some muster with THX certification.

So please don't think this is any personal affront to you. I'm simply sharing my opinion, which is what this board is for.

Best regards,

Wayne,

Relax.. I don't think anyone has been trying to play you for the fool here. From my perspective the tone of your post is very defensive, and it's coming out of left field. I read everything up to your post as mostly friendly discussion, but clearly you felt attacked. We all have different opinions here, but I think at the end of the day most of us still respect one another.

I don't think it's fair to broadly say that equipment bearing a THX logo is high quality any more than it's fair to say that any gear with a THX logo is junk. It's a multi-tiered for-pay certification program, and I think that many of us feel that it's a lot more marketing-heavy than technical-heavy. Had they stuck to their high-end criteria only, I think many of us would have more respect for the mark.

However, they made a smart business decision and realized there were going to be many more low and mid-grade products sold in the HT marketplace, and realized they could cash in on that by segmenting their certifications. The unfortunate side-effect of this is that Joe Sixpack thinks buying a cheap $200 receiver with a THX logo from the local big box is getting him something special over some other piece of gear without the logo, when in reality a portion of the unit cost had to go to lining Lucas's pockets for the license fees.

I do think it's great that they established criteria against which equipment (and rooms) can be measured, but as evidenced by the dearth of junk at the big boxes with the THX logo, an unqualified "my unit is THX certified" is meaningless. It's great for their business because it's a household brand (within our niche of interest anyway), but it's meaningless from a technical standpoint.

It is unfortunate that there is not another standards body which has a set of standards by which HT systems could be measured. Unfortunately all we do have is a company that collects license fees for the certification, thus putting them in a bit of a conflict of interest situation.

Perfect:

Your comments live up to your name. An excellent summary of what is going on here, and with THX in general. The original premise of THX, to "have the movie (programming) sound the same way in yoru home has it did in all enviroments back to the orignial conception of the sound designer" is a noble one. Indeed, back in the "early days" of analog home theater when the matrix 4:2:4 surround systems were all we had to deal with, it made a bit more sense than now. In particular, the components of the system that helped out in the days of the bandwidth limited, mono surruond channel of the orignal ProLogic system made sense.

In today's digital world, with full bandwidth, discrete rear channels (at least in 5.1 and 6.1 systems, but not in 7.1) some components are less important, some still relevant. Like everything else in this "hobby" it's a matter of subjectivity as to what sounds better and why.

All people are doing here is expressing their opinions. You can take what you want and think valid, and ignore the rest. I don't want to put my equipment list out there -- for those who do, by all means, but for thos eof us who prefer annonimity, fine. I don't need to state my experience or "length of time", as I really don't need that validation -- some do and fine for them, some do by way of explanation of their background, and also fine, some don't for reasons of privacy or other -- that ought to eb fine too. However, don't presume that any one person's knowledge here is better than anyone else's.

It's only home theater, for crying out loud! (IN 7.1 digital surround, of course!)

You may want to re-read his name more carefully.

OK, you're right. But as Prefects go, he is perfect...

Wayne - no one, from what I've read here, is in any way trying to disparage your own equipment choices or level of knowledge about your passion. I think you may be taking this more personally than the situation warrants.

However, as one of your aforementioned...

"more recently "outspoken/opinionated" contributers to this forum (I will not name names as you know who you are and, some of you being relatively new to the forum) have not/do not, post this same information in the same spirit. And that's a shame, really, as it illaffords the opportunity for others to be critical of your buying dicisions"

...I would have to say that, if putting my equipment choices out there is to facilitate criticism, then I am perfectly justified in not doing so, and so would you be! Moreover, a negative opinion of THX does not reflect upon your equipment or choices, but in fact reflects on the choices of the person with said opinion. You alone know the value of what you have put into your system, and the opinions of others (such as myself) here shouldn't detract from that.

Wayne, you, like only a few others in this forum, have been a regular and positive contributor here for as long as I've been reading. I would hate to see that change due to this thread, and I apologize for my own part if any of my responses have been offputting, since I know I have responded with distinct sarcasm at least once here. I would hope you feel the same way, and hope that you would reconsider and continue to join in the debate here with me.

Originally posted by Ritz:
I apologize if I misrepresented myself, to any and all non-offending members of this forum, in regards to what my personal opinion of the current crop of Home THX certified components is, and I'll get to that at a future time.

Up until this point, (in this particular thread) I have been concerned with providing (and defending) factual information relating to the Home THX program. I am regretful if my posts left any impressions that I feel "that THX certification is any indicator of overall quality of sound reproduction". In fact, I do not, (can not) as (if one looks at the affor-posted THX performance criteria lists) "overall quality of sound reproduction" (or the like) does not appear. THX makes no claims that a certified product will perform better than one comparabley non-certified, but that it has passed "muster" in contrast to their specified criteria for performance. In this respect, a potential consumer must still do some "shopping" in regards to "overall quality of sound reproduction".

Realistically, how could THX make such a claim? Technically, the only claim THX makes for certified products is that they have, in fact, been certified to the requirements (and only the requirements) of the certification specs, themselves. Certification (technically) has nothing to do with "quality of sound", and everything to do with meeting a "standard of minimum performance".


Alas, even if I were "in the mood", I hardly believe that "Best Buy or Circuit City or other electronics superstore " would be an appropriate setting to conduct any meaningful assesment of a given products sound quality. But, I hear what you're saying.


I agree, completely. It's just that the tone of some previous posts in this thread lays the blame for this on THX, which simply is not the case. It's very much like blamming the U.S.D.A. for inspecting and passing meat that the butcher allowed to spoil!


I don't, and I couldn't agree more.


Wayne

In this case, however, THX is not a universal standard, but again, a private certification, and as such they are the onlyones to blame. If their standards are such that a crappy receiver can meet them, then it comes across more of a licensing program than an indicator of quality.

While this by no means makes THX crap, the issue that I stand by here is that THX certification no longer precludes crap, like THX did when first introduced. The splintering of the certification, in my opinion, fosters consumer confusion and a watering down of its purpose, which is to ensure a quality experience for the discerning consumer.

Do I read you correctly?! Are you actually stating that the designer, manufacturer and marketer of the product itself bears no blame or responsability??!! As to your second sentence; take a close look at the certification criteria lists that I posted here previously. Do you, anywhere see the word “quality” within the parameter list itself? NO?! Can you imagine, for a moment, exactly why that would be? I can. Because THX is not testing for quality! They are testing only for a given manufacturer’s product’s ability to meet specs!! The responsibility of quality of sound reproduction falls to the manufacturer, EXACTLY as it does for non-THX certified equipment!

Once again, Greg, you don’t have your facts straight. I can (and just did) empirically prove my points with real, hard, verifiable, provable FACTS. You can’t, or at least, up to the present, haven’t. Is it, perhaps, that you are, for what ever reason, unconcerned with reality, or that, again, for what ever reason, you are never wrong? As a personal favor, (even though you may feel I am undeserving) think about that. Please.

Quote:

While this by no means makes THX crap, the issue that I stand by here is that THX certification no longer precludes crap, like THX did when first introduced. The splintering of the certification, in my opinion, fosters consumer confusion and a watering down of its purpose, which is to ensure a quality experience for the discerning consumer.

Again, your assumption is that THX certification ever DID “preclude crap”. The fact is, in 1990, at the start, THX certification only attracted manufacturers of the “High-End”, as the “High-End” manufacturers were the only ones that could, at the time, affordabley implement the specifications! And again, scan the certification criteria lists for where “crap” is a parameter whereby certification suitability is judged. Wait. Let me save you some time. DON’T BOTHER, ‘CAUSE IT AIN’T THERE!!

As to the first part of your second sentence, and your stated “opinion”; (and, make no mistake, personal opinion is the only thing you’ve had to argue with the entire course of this thread) I agree that there does, without question, definitely exist a great deal of “consumer confusion” surrounding the reality versus myth of exactly what “THX Certified” truly, FACTUALLY guarantees, and what it does not. And, what it guarantees to do, (and only what it guaratees to do) it does.

As to the second part of your second sentence; Once again, you proceed from a false assumption. Be so kind as to provide the source of the THX statement of “purpose” that reads “is to ensure a quality experience for the discerning consumer”. In all the years I have followed the Home THX program, never have I read those words together in any issued statement. So please, be so kind.

Further, exactly how “discerning” can Mr. or Mrs. “Consumer” be if they purchase an audio product without first listening to it, basing their decision soley on some fancy “badge” stenciled on the front of the unit? If this is the case, it would appear that Mr. or Mrs. “Consumer” weren’t really all that “ discerning”, after all, in which case... why should it matter?


Wayne

Your enthusiasm is admirable here, Wayne, but your combative approach is misplaced.

This doesn't need to be personal Wayne, and your opinion is no more valid simply because you have read and posted numerous THX press releases. Do not assume you know me at all from reading my posts. And more succinctly, do not put words in my mouth/keyboard - if I didn't write it, do not accuse me of it - unless you yourself are "unconcerned with reality."

Wayne, for someone who "cannot... will not tolerate...to be dismissed out of hand," you can certainly dish out. If THX isn't a quality standard, then why do they claim, (and I quote from your quoted PR) "The company’s certification programs and technologies deliver the ultimate entertainment experience, providing superior playback of movies, music and games"? Are "superior" and "ultimate" no longer indicative of a quality standard, but instead now indicative of, as you say, "a 'standard of minimum performance.'"?

Again, you assume my "opinion" is all I have. How many THX Ultra products do I need in my home, or how many THX specs do I need to read, to have a valid opinion in your eyes?

Again, because I don't quote from a press release, I'm wrong. Refer to above THX quote about quality.

People in this forum do just that based upon the Outlaw name. Are we all, therefore, not discerning? To answer your question, if the THX badge wasn't perceived as a quality standard, then why would any company ever pay the fee to have it on a budget-level receiver? Do you think most consumers at that level would look for THX at all if it wasn't perceived that way?

If I may summarize my view:

1. If meeting the THX spec doesn't preclude "crap" then the spec isn't terribly useful for people using it as a barometer of minimum audio/visual quality. That suggests that the standard is too forgiving or that the THX folks are more interested in licensing revenue than quality (or both?).

2. There's good THX certified gear out there and there's some pretty cheesy stuff that I wouldn't consider high fidelity at all.

3. Lack of THX certification simiply means the company producing the equipment doesn't feel their customers want/need that decal on their equipment to feel that they're getting "that cinema experience". It has no bearing on usability or sonic/visual quality whatsoever.

Frankly, I feel the spec/certification/whatever is rather useless for an educated buyer. If Lucas comes out with some revolutionary encoding technique that "brings movies to life" better than Dolby Digital or DTS and it is only available to THX licensees, then MAYBE I'll consider it a must-have. Until then, I think it's more about marketing than about quality.

I don't know what it actually costs to get a piece of equipment certified and suitably licensed. But I suspect that it's not THAT cheap or everyone would do it just for the marketing bang. So I'm glad that Outlaw felt they could play the quality card without feeling the need to increase their (and our!!) costs by getting a wave of approval from Lucas.

I don't know why Wayne seems to be taking this so personally. It's a rather impersonal subject. I don't think I'd get riled up if someone chuckled about a particular ethernet RFC and my company router happened to support it. So what? That doesn't mean it's not doing its job suitably for me. Let's all just take a deep breath, have a nice big glass of wine, and relax.

Best regards,

For those that are saying that the THX standards have gotten so watered down as to be worthless, could you name some crappy items that are THX badged? Just curious.

I own a set of Klipsch computer speakers that carry a THX logo. I can't imagine listening to a movie through them and at the same time feel that I'm getting a better "theater experience" than I would in my "Outlaw controlled" theater in the basement. Not apples to apples, I know. But the said speakers DO carry the THX stamp. You asked for it....


Later,
Simp

Creative Labs sound cards.

Crap is, of course, in the ear of the beholder. Give a listen to the Kenwood unit that goes for about $350. I'd like to know if anyone else is as unimpressed with its soundstage as was I.

I don't know about crappy but THX certified speaker wire from Monster seems marketing driven.

If you know that's not an apples to apples comparison, why did you make it? THX certification for computer speakers is completely different from their certification for home theatre speakers. Have you compared your Klipsch computer speakers to non-THX certified computer speakers around the same price range? If so, do the Klipsch sound like crap in comparison? What's crappy about Creative Labs sound cards? Do they sound really crappy compared to non-THX sound cards? What makes the Kenwood unit crap compared to other $350 receivers? Do other similarly priced non-THX receivers throw a significantly better soundstage? This makes THX wire crap? Is it that much worse than other wire? Are other brand-name wire products not market driven?

Folks, I'm not trying to be flippant. There seems to be very, very strong opinions amongst some of us that THX is crap. I'd really like to know how horrible these THX products sound versus non-THX products in the same category. So far no one has explained what makes these THX products crappy compared to their non-THX counterparts.

It was not, so much, feeling that I was attacked, but rather, the factual information that I was attempting to provide to the less informed, that they might draw a more educated conclusion, based upon facts, rather than conjecture and/or opinion. I feel this to be an important point; to draw distinction between fact and opinion. I offer an quote of Kosman - “Thanks guys, I guess you all have put that myth to bed.” NO MYTH was “put to bed”! Real or opined! How on Earth can poor Kosman, (or any other newcommer to these pages, for that matter) arrive at any meaningful conclusions, when what he is given, in place of factual information, is biased, opinionated conjecture from the seemingly-informed. I say ‘seemingly-informed’ as those that make these jaded, fallacious, opinionated comments do so without regard of facts, or their personal responsibility to other forum members. PodBoy was the first to respond, and did so (at first) in an informationally helpful manner. Concise, accurate, no B.S.

Gonk is a member that seems to typically have his facts straight before he starts to type and, whether he is aware of it or not, he is admired for his (truely) helpful approach in this forum. And so, I will take this opportunity to publically thank you, Gonk for all of your tireless effort within these pages! The Outlaw Audio Forum would be a much lesser place in your absence.

This leads me to another point of contention; I feel (have always felt) that I (we) possess a responsibility to my (our) fellow members of this forum, that when we are asked a question in good faith (aside from an obvious jest) I (we) would do well to give as factually informative a response as I (we) are capable of providing, unless I (we) am (are) invited to speculation. But, that's just me.

A fair statement, to be sure. Although, the THX performance criteria is in no way concerned with a given product’s quality, as THX has no control over what a manufacturer succeeds, or fails to do to meet this phantom specification of "quality" that everyone keeps harping-on about. It simply does not exist, and I defy anyone to PROVE this statement a falsehood! And, this merely serves to bring my arguement around again to the contention that peoples opinions are holding sway in this discussion. NOT FACTS!!

Believe me, I am well aware that the majority, if not all of the forum participants feel that “it's a lot more marketing-heavy than technical-heavy”, and that “Had they stuck to their high-end criteria only, I think many of us would have more respect for the mark”. Whether anyone “has respect for the mark”, or not, is of utterly no concern to me. What is of tremendous concern to me, however, is this forum’s complete and utter disregard for FACTS!!! And, so far as I can see, I am alone in being willing and/or able to produce any, or that cares either way.

Not being present at a single share-holders meeting, I would prefer not to speculate as to any political motives or goings-on therein. It may be just as you have said. It may not. Only one thing is for certain; there is no way to know for sure, either way. My first impression would be that, being a business, they probably want to generate as many streams of income (diversify) as much as they are able. I don’t nessessarily see this as being a bad thing. Capitolism is good... just ask Gordon Geko.

As for the mis-adventures of “Joe Sixpack”; if $200 is all that Mr. Sixpack is willing to spend, and Mr. Sixpack believes that the “local big box” is the place to find anything of quality, well... you know what they say about a fool and his money.

Now, as far as Lucas lining his pockets with the licensing fees; I cannot speak for anyone else but, I look after my financial interests on a daily basis. So, as I see it, how could I, (without hypocracy) begrudge Lucas for doing the same? So, what are we really talking about here? I mean, is it that poor old Joe got “ripped-off”, or that the “evil” capitolist, George Lucas, made money?

I do agree that an unqualified “my unit is THX certified” has a potential for being technically meaningless. It’s just that, I don’t believe that that is indeed the case, in any prevalent way. Then again, that is only my opinion, and I admit that I cannot factually refute it. “dearth of junk”... I like the way you put that! I, personally would never shop for anything of quality at a “big box”. I am a firm believer that ‘one gets what one is willing to pay for’.

Does anyone reading this think, for a single moment, that Dolby Laboratories or Digital Theater Systems (DTS) don’t receive a review sample of each and every product that bears their technologies, and their company’s logo?! Does anyone believe that they don't charge a fee for the use of their technologies and logo copyright in a consumer product?! Both have huge warehouses where they store each and every sample sent to them. And, you don’t have to take my word for it. Ask Scott, our forum Moderator if Outlaw has to submit samples to both for technical-specification review.

Now, for the sake of arguement, let us imagine that both of these fine organizations receive a review sample that is (purely by coincidence) also THX certified. Let us also assume that this unit is, to coin a phrase, “a piece of crap”. Okay, so the cover is off the unit, very dire-looking men in white lab coates hover, poking around inside, performing all sorts of technically meaningful tests, and through all of this, not so much as once did they test the unit for sound quality. Those bastards! How in the world could they allow their company’s name to go on that piece of “crap”?! I mean, it was right there, they tested it. Why’d they “certify” that piece of “crap??!!

Wait though, it passed spec, right? And besides, “they” didn’t design it. Brand “XYZ” did that. “They” didn’t build it either. Again, “XYZ”. But then, why aren’t “they” (Dolby or DTS) to blame for the unit’s decided “crappiness”? What? Oooooh, because the issue of sound quality isn’t part of “their” company's criteria of performance tests? Oooooh. Well, in that case I think that we can all consider them exhonorated, and relieved of any and all resposibilities there of. After all, it was never “their” job, was it?

So, who to blame? Aaaaah, it must be the manufacturers fault then! No?! But, why not? “XYZ” designed, built and are going to market it, aren’t they? Hmmmmm. Well, if niether Dolby, DTS nor “XYZ” can be blamed, then whom shall we blame??!! Oooooh, THX!! Hey, good idea! I hear that the “evil” capitolist, George Lucas, is a multi-millionare, maybe even a billionare! Yeah, let’s blame him. He’s an easy target. Besides, everybody hates that guy. Yeah, he ruined Star Wars!!! :rolleyes:

The previously illustrated scenario is nothing more than my opinion of the way many think, (or, at least, react, which is essentially the same thing) in regards to the facts of this subject. The reasoning behind it seems, at best, illogical and perplexing. But, never the less... there it is.

In the end, what it all amounts to is that niether Dolby, DTS nor THX give a “rodent’s rectum” about the “quality” of sound reproduction from any product that passes their spec parameters. What's more, it is appearent that some manufacturers care as little and, for what it's worth, I feel confident in saying that it is with the manufacturer, that the burden of sound quality lies, not with Dolby, DTS or THX. For any of these companies to be concerned with anything beyond the scope of what they’re being paid to do, is to risk the loss of revenue. And, when one is in business, losing money is never considered acceptable. Whether the philosophical conotations of these cold, hard facts are of any moral significance.... I leave that to the reader to decide for themselves.

My sincere apologies, and thanks to Prefect. I'm sorry that your post was the one I drew as my "jumping-off point".


Wayne

Sanjay,
Ok, so I re-read your question. You specifically ask for "crappy" hardware that is THX badged. So based on this, I must retract my response to your question. But since I'm here, I will answer the question you pose in your response: I listened to several different sets of computer speakers prior to buying the ones that I have now. Some were "THX certified" and some were not. Not all the THX certified speakers sounded better than ones that weren't certified. It just so happened that in my price range, the Klipsch were the ones that had most of what I was looking for while sounding pretty good.

When I made the comment "not apples to apples", I meant that computer speakers aren't pre/pros. At the same time, you didn't specifically ask for "crappy pre/pros" that are THX badged. In all fairness, you left it pretty open.

Later,
Simp

So again, since you posted the data, your opinion is the only one that counts. Wayne, I've read all of your posted data, in addition to plenty of their literature over the years, and I own equipment with the badge as well. However, my opinion is somehow invalid in your eyes. Why should anyone be hesitant to post an opinion here, uninformed or otherwise according to you, just because they're not as informed as you?

If facts were all that mattered here, then your posting of the THX spec sheet way back would have been enough to convince by itself.

Isn't your personal responsibility to other forum members to be civil, as well? Even new readers should be able to discern between fact and opinion, after all, we are adults. How can you expect any readers, especially new ones. to have respect for your "facts" when you lace your responses with insults and wild accusations for those who post uninvited speculation?

Simp,

Yes, I did leave my question wide open so as not to limit the categories when people replied.

What I didn't expect was that people would compare a THX item from one category (computer speakers) to non-THX gear from another category (home theatre) when the certifications for each category is very different.

That's about as fair as saying THX speakers have crappy bass response but neglecting to mention that the 80Hz roll-off is a specific design element and not a limitation of the speaker manufacturer's capabilities.

Mention of THX seems to bring out strong emotions in people, not just at The Saloon but on practically every A/V forum, and I have yet to figure out why. I can understand why double blind testing would upset certain people; but a certification process? Like I said, I'm really curious about the claims of crap products being able to get the THX badge.

Sanjay,
Fair enough. No hard feelings? Should have read your question more carefully. I'm certainly no expert when it comes to the THX certification process or guidelines and the lack of THX certification on every piece of my H/T gear except my amp certainly hasn't taken away from the enjoyment I get from sittin' down to watch a movie or listen to some tunes.

Cheers,
Simp

What I have heard from high end shops that sell products like Rotel and Arcam is that these companies use their own algorithms that don't require THX licensing, but fulfill the same funtions. This allows more money to be spent on decent power supplies and other interior components. Having done A/B comparisons between similar units with and without THX, THX has not been much of a facter for me in either direction.

I'm pretty sure no one here thinks a THX badge assures a poor performing device. Rather, it seems the assertion was that lacking a THX logo does not preclude a device from performing very well, and in fact that some non-logo bearing devices might outperform or at least equal similarly priced or comparable THX certified devices.

Now kids, all of you should go have a drink.

Well, Rotel uses Dolby and DTS, and prior to Dolby Pro Logic IIx they also used a Rotel-branded version of Cirrus's surround back processing (very similar to the "Cirrus Extra Surround" offered on the Model 950), but otherwise I think the explanation you were given is pretty accurate.

Here's what I think it boils down to, for what it's worth. THX has provided some valuable specifications and guidance to the home theater industry. Not only did THX help identify good hardware in home theater's earlier days, but THX helped identify design issues that needed to be addressed in all home theater equipment, thereby benefiting all of us in at least some form. Even today they can be useful, both in a review role for some very impressive THX-approved hardware and in helping keep pressure on the industry to maintain high standards. For those reasons, dismissing them outright is unreasonable, even if their marketing program's growth (computer speakers, Monster speaker wire) may have diluted some of the perceived prestige of the brand. At the same time, classifying THX as a core feature or equating it to Dolby or DTS is also unreasonable. DVD owners who want surround sound need Dolby Digital and DTS, because those are the data formats in which digital audio is stored on DVD's, whereas there is no THX audio format that requires THX-listed hardware to decode. There is a wealth of excellent quality hardware on the market that lacks the THX logo - often that hardware represents a particularly good value for the consumer in part because the manufacturer elected not to pursue THX licensing, thereby keeping costs down and offering a little extra savings for the consumer. I think at least some of the seemingly anti-THX activity online stems from people who don't want newcomers to the hobby to deprive themselves of the opportunity to discover some of those great values due to an over-emphasis on the THX logo.

This thread has been moved to the Outlaw to Outlaw section of the Saloon.