The Sherwood/Newcastle is getting Auto-EQ. Will the 990 also get it?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=565670

It is an interesting question - Outlaw has indicated in the past that they are not particularly impressed with the form of auto-EQ available from Cirrus (which looks to be what Sherwood is using), so I would suspect that the possibility exists that Outlaw would choose not to do this. Also, the price to add EQ to an existing P-965 is $100 plus shipping to the factory - that's a pretty penny for an EQ that some would suggest is not real beneficial. It'll be curious to see what happens, that's for sure.

I wonder if the hardware change involved is as straightforward as the Model 950's DTS-ES fix (swapping out a chip with a standard extractor and popping in a new chip), or if there is soldering involved...

It was mentioned on another thread on AVS that it is a chip swap. A memory chip with more capacity.

7-bands at 1/12th octave seems pretty good to me.

I agree, $100 may be tough for some to swallow, but easy for some. New units after mid-August will have it already.

Very interesting in this price point. I think the Emotiva UL will be left wanting.

As has been pointed out in this thread, our colleagues at Sherwood are about to release an upgrade package including an “auto-eq” function for some of their products that share a similar platform with the Model 990. We are currently testing solutions that add an auto-eq function to the Model 990 as part of a planned software maintenance upgrade that both improves its functionality and addresses certain issues that have been brought to our attention. However, at this point the auto-eq system’s performance does not meet our standards, and we will not release it until we are completely satisfied with both its overall accuracy (especially in setup) and the control menus that drive it. (It should be also be mentioned here that while the Model 990 shares many aspects of its hardware platform with other products, the software menus and control system are uniquely Outlaw’s.) We are proud of our control system and will make certain that any additional features maintain the same level of flexibility and ease of use.

Right now our first priority is to complete the maintenance upgrade as a standalone release, with auto-eq to follow when it is ready. Please understand that while our pre-release testing has already validated the Model 990’s hardware to successfully perform any upgrades via USB or RS-232 connections, it will still take some time for the actual software upgrade to be completed and for us to put it through the required validation and beta testing.

The Outlaws

Sounds good to me. Thanks for the update Scott.

Thank you for keeping us updated,and informed Scott.It is appreciated.

John

Cool, Scott, thanks for keeping the 'slingers in the loop.

Someone asked this in the Sherwood thread but didn't get an answer yet. Want I want to know is if you can just run it on the Subwoofer channel only? I would just as soon keep the PEQ off the other seven channels. I'd also be curious if you can adjust the actual PEQ filters manually. Done right this could obsolete the BFD and R-DES for the subwoofer.

That is a very good question, obie_fl, and one that I look forward to hearing the answer to. From Scott's comments, it sounds like any future auto EQ for the 990 will not necessarily be the same as the Sherwood's - if they do come up with a satisfactory EQ, the inclusion of an option to limit it to the subwoofer output along with manual control of the EQ would be particularly presuasive reasons to introduce it.

obie: I'd really doubt that you could EQ the sub only. Indeed, most of the auto-eq systems don't do all that great a job with low frequencies. Everyone I've seen requires you to run it through all channels or none.

Thanks for the reply Scott! Cool, a revision to the firmware, coming down the pike in the near future! Man, If I could get handle on mode selection/input source signal type I would be sooo much happier. Oh, and maybe one day auto eq? That's happening...
Personally, I am glad they are taking time with this to get it as good as it could be, I of course have sugestions: if possible, allow selection of speakers to get the eq; I have the DEQX on the mains, and don't think I could get any better than this, but my rears sure need a hand, and I might just remove the extra ICBM if you eq the sub for me. (sometimes I leave the 990 out of the loop and send digital direct to the DEQX, but of course that works for stereo PCM only, not SACD)
I hope that when a hardware revision comes out that it will have a kit option so I don't have to drag my 950 out to hook it up while my 990 goes back to the ranch. Just a thought...
Thanks again for the update Scott!

Oh, I forgot. I suppose the eq would be done in the digital domain, and seeing as how it looks like we convert everything to digital anyway, I guess that it won't degrade the sound if all "sliders" are set to flat. If manual override/adjustment is provided, and maybe bypass for certain channels?
I should probaly start a new thread, or search for a existing thread, but I wonder: Does the 7.1 input remain analog all the way through to the output, and only a digital copy taken so a sub signal can be derived? I am starting to think it has a A/D D/A stage so the xover can be applied on high and low pass sides. Of course the 950 was straight analog w/ selectable 80hz xover on the 5.1
I don't like the idea of an extra a/d d/a stage, but I do it on the DEQX, to be sure, but I want avoid this if I can.

The 7.1 input works one of two ways currently: if all speakers are set to "large" then it acts as a pure analog bypass, but if some speakers are set to "small" the 990 introduces an A-D-A process to apply bass management in the digital domain.

Thanks gonk. That's good info.
Lonster

I suspect the Outlaw auto-eq system is based on the same software engine as the Sherwood even though Outlaw can make modifications to it. The Sherwood announcement specifically states that it is seven channels of PEQ per channel. I don’t see any reason why it couldn’t be limited to one channel. I’m a little leery of auto-eq systems myself which is why I said it would be nice to have control over the individual PEQ filters. I could see where this could be a nightmare implementing it into the menu system as Scott alluded to. Let’s see 8 inputs x 7 PEQs x 3 for the Q, Center Freq and Level equals 168 settings, I won’t hold my breath for this.

In a similar vein I wonder if it is possible to only do the A/D on the 7.1 analog channels that are set to small. I for one really want to pass my mains through untouched. Taking analog BM away is my biggest disappointment in the 990. At least they should make it easier to switch from large to small on this input.

Gonk,
If my R & L speakers are set to Large and my center is set to small, does that mean if I am using 7.1 input that signal to R & L (and of course center) being fed 3 channel SACD is being digitaly processed?
What about same setup when playing bck two channel SACD?
Thanks,
JKenton

I'm not sure about that scenario, jkenton. The information I've seen could be interpreted two ways: that only small speakers receive processing (along with the .1 channel, of course), or that all channels receive processing any time a single speaker is set to small.

This is a area that needs to be addressed, in detail, in the owner's manual.

Humm...maybe we can get some clarification on the 7.1 analog BM from the Outlaws. I had assumed if any of the channels were set to small that all the channels were A/D'ed. Maybe that is not the case after all.

That's what I'd originally assumed as well, obie, but once the question was raised as to whether it was restricted solely to small speakers I couldn't be certain that my original assumption was correct.

Scott,

Make sure the EQ is both automatic and manual. I have my own measurement system, and would prefer to tweak by hand.

Well...Jeff Hipps just posted on AVS that the P-965 Auto-EQ is not adjustable, it is either on or off. Can't say I'm surprised. You would almost need a PC interface to control all those points. Hey now that's an idea.

I believe that is the current idea for multi-point RoomEQ. Use a PC to take readings from several different points within the room, make adjustments and then create a flash rom bin file for the preamp.

The AV123 R-DES EQ product works in a similar fashion. You punch all your numbers in then you play with the settings on the PC and upload the R-DES box through the USB port. They are also talking about adding EMOScapes to their upcoming digitally powered receivers, which is basically PC control over your receiver. There is also that program that ties into the BFD through Midi and I know other Pre/Pros that allow you to hook up a PC for configuration control.

I’m just not sure how many people are willing to deal with a PC to interface with their A/V gear though. Personally I wouldn’t mind hooking a PC up to my 990 if it had a nice graphical interface to eight channels with seven bands of PEQ and control of BM.

I don't care if I have to program the manual settings myself through the serial port. I'm just voting for the option.

About 2 years ago, I attended an Atlanta Audiophile Society meeting w/ the owner of Innersound. He (Sanders) had on display a Behringer Ultracurve EQ (31 band digital EQ). He said every system needed it. Using a calibrated microphone in a listening position, you could balance the sound of the speakers.

This appealed to me tremendously, mainly due to the fact that the room I had my speakers (Magnepan 1.6s) had me placing one speaker in the corner, the other speaker with a big open space on the outside of it. The speakers were very unbalanced. I purchased it and placed it in my system. It was amazing the difference it made, but alas, I'm jinxed... At about 25-30 dB below the signal, I had a hum (60 Hz) that I could not get rid of, so I removed it from my system.

Now, with the 990, in a new room (very symmetrical), I'm thinking about using it again (just for the mains). I have a few questions:

1. Has anyone had experience with the Ultracurve?

2. Is there a way to use the Optical output to get just the front left/front right speaker information to the Ultracurve? I would hate to convert the signal from digital to analog (SACD/DVD-A player) to digital to analog (990) back to digital to analog (Ultracurve).

3. The Ultracurve has balanced inputs. My amplifier (Citation 7.1) does not. If the optical transfer is out, can I use XLR cables from 990 to Ultracurve and my Tributaries interconnects from the Ultracurve to the Citation? Does this even matter?

Thanks,

EP

obie:

It will be interesting to see what AV123 actually delivers, since I have to guess that what Mark is hinting at is "LEO", which is something developed by D2 Audio as part of the suite of options for their amplifiers, not some marvelous invention of his own. It is based on using the processor inside the digital amp module in conjunction with feedback from the speakers both directly (by measuring how they load the amp) and with a microphone for parameters to set the room EQ stuff. Definately NOT the same as R-DES or using a PC to assemble the data and then feed it back into the receiver or amplifier. Look here: http://www.d2audio.com/default.aspx?c=16&t=Intelligence&k=

Interesting use of an acronym for the Behringer thing. When I see "BFD" I associate it with some other phrasing that if used here might be me banned by the Outlaws.

Mark is a very savy marketer as well as a designer, so a word of caution might be in order as to how he has used "EMOScapes" as branding for a feature in one product already in the market vs. what it might be in another that is still vapor ware. While you have to respect Mark's talents on both scores, it should be noted that he's gotten away with announcing products LONG in advance of their ship date, and then clamming up about what the actual features and prices are, let alone setting a delivery date and keeping it. When the Outlaws fell into that trap -- or should I say made their own bed and then had to lie in it -- with the constant delays for the 950, everyone was ALL over them, and rightfully so. Mark is, to some extent, doing the same thing with a number of products that are long overdue, or announced for delivery long into the future. Somehow he seems to have a Teflon coating, but I guess good for him.

The truth, as always, is in the final performance of the products for the pricing. The 990 seems, to all reports here and elsewhere, to be a great value and an outstanding performer. It's gonna get fun when (if?) the new low cost processor from AV123 makes it to market. It seems to lack some important features for my taste, but I'm sure it will sound good and find its own place in the market. The more interesting question will be to compare the Model 1070 (yes, I know it is a receiver and not separates) against the UL Twins. Seems to offer more features for the $$ and I bet that while partisans on both sides will claim that "theirs" sounds better, there will be little difference between them on that score. The much more extensive bass management, lip sync delay, ability to do software upgrades and more inputs on the 1070 are tilting me in that direction for the moment, but time will tell.

PB - Can't say I disagree with any of the above. I guess I wasn't clear about the distinction between EMOscape and R-DES I was aware they are two totally different things. There are a lot of days when I wish MLS would just stick to speakers, although the D2 stuff has the potential to be pretty cool.

EP - To minimize the number of A-D-A conversions, simply keep your connections analog. I would run XLR from 990 to Behringer. I prefer quad cable (Belden, Canare, Mogami, ProCo, Whirlwind) for its better noise rejection.

You didn't say what connectors are on your Tribs, but you will need adapter cables from Behringer to Citation. You could use XLR female on the Behringer analog output, but it is probably better to use unbalanced 1/4" TS (mono phone) plugs from the AUX out. The Behringer will automatically detect and adjust levels for the unbalanced connections. See sections 2.2 and 5.2 of the Behringer manual.