Hi all,

I'm a newb to the Hideout, as my member number clearly illustrates, but I've been exceedingly impressed with the members in this forum. A vast majority of HT forums house some rather opinionated individuals who gaurd their beliefs devoutly - even violently as far as verbage is concerned. Because of the lucid nature of the Outlaw fans, I figure I could get some great advice from all of you (especially you, Gonk - I'm thoroughly impressed) on an upcoming upgrade.

I recently purchased my new display and the wife and I are making the jump to HD. However, my severely inadequte receiver (Denon AVR 3802) has only 2 component inputs. With an Xbox and DVD player taking up these two inputs, there is obviouly no room left to make the most of HDTV (as far as using the video-switching capabilities are concerned). As an HT enthusiast, this isn't really a problem since the wife is agreeable to my upgrade bug. However, she won't tolerate constant upgrades, so I have to find something that is upgradeable.

This brings me to the 990. My budget is hovering around $2500 for a new receiver or pre/pro/amp stack. There are plenty of receivers out there that can fill this bill. However, not may pre/pro/amp stacks in this areana - at least that are worth looking at. I've heard so many good things about Outlaw's products that I'm very interested in making the jump. However, here is my dilema:

1.) There is no way I can audition Outlaw's equipment, as far as I know. So, my anxiety lies in buying a product I've never had the opportunity to listen to. I would like honest opinions on the quality of the equipment Outlaw builds. Especially those that are running Paradigm speakers. I have the complete Studio Series v3: CC570, Studio 100's (L&R), ADP 470 (for the L/R surrounds), Studio 20's (L/R Rears) and a PW-2200 (v3).

2.) With the wife growing weary of all the upgrades recently, she is concerned about obselescence. I know the 990 offers USB and 232 capailities to upgrade software, but what about firmware? With HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, DD++ and DTS++ looming on the horizon, I want to make sure that I won't have to shell out more money for a new pre/pro when the technology finally goes mainstream. Does Outlaw offer this kind of upgradeability for the 990, or is it strictly software?

My mind is pretty much made up that I will be buying the 990/7125 stack. But I need solid ownership testamonials to put my mind at ease. I thnk all of you for your time and I look forward to conversing with all of you here in the future. Its a great forum and I'm happy to be a part of it.

Houghers

To answer (1), Outlaw does offer an in-home audition for 30 days. You're only out shipping costs if you don't like the unit.

As to (2), the USB and RS232 ports are used to upgrade the firmware. In this case, "software" and "firmware" are the same thing (all firmware is software, but not all software is firmware).

Nobody can predict whether you'll have to shell out more money, but it's certainly a possibility. If they decide that the only way audio is going to be shipped out of HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players is over the next generation of HDMI connector, we're all out of luck and have to upgrade (or use analog connections from the player, which is what many of us will do I suspect).

To support such a thing, the 990 would need a hardware upgrade, and it's not really provisioned for such an upgrade. You can change the firmware 'till the cows come home, but there's simply no hardware to get the as-yet-unreleased new digital audio format into the 990.

It's very hard to find processors with upgradable hardware in anywhere near the price range of the 990.

I have a 990, and I had a 950 before it. Outlaw offers a very solid value on a product that sounds good. I definitely took a small risk in buying the 990 since we are on the cusp of some new technologies, but if you get too bogged down in worrying about the future, you'll never buy anything. Upgrades are part of the game.

The nice thing about purchasing separates is that, when you do need to upgrade your processor, you still have an amp you can use. Also, Outlaw stuff has held its value well in the used market, so you can make a relatively inexpensive incremental upgrade in the future.

Welcome to the forum, Houghers. I had a long reply mostly written when my browser decided it was Monday and crashed, so let's try this again...

As Prefect points out, there is the 30-day return policy as a method of auditioning the equipment in your own home. If the audition doesn't satisfy you, you're out the cost of shipping and the time spent playing with it (although for many of us around here, only the shipping would be seen as a "cost").

The 990 (and the 1070 receiver) has the software upgradeability primarily to allow for bug fixes, interface tweaks (such as some ideas that have been tossed out by 990 users and are apparently on Outlaw's list of planned revisions), and potentially even to facilitate changes that can wring that last bits of capability out of the hardware. Does that mean that the 990 will be able to handle Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD decoding internally? Probably not - for a very compelling reason. The digital audio connection that will be used for those two has not been agreed on. It will mostly likely be a form of HDMI, but it will be a newer version of HDMI than is currently in use, meaning that an HDMI input built into a processor today is likely to not be compatible with the HDMI outputs used by HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players. Does that mean we will be out of luck with HD optical discs? I don't believe so. In addition to the 990's DVI switching (which will handle the digital video signal from an HDMI source, since HDMI borrowed from DVI for the video half of its personality), the 990's 7.1 analog input will allow it to work with any player equipped with a built-in DD+/DTS-HD decoder. Since the output specs of the future HD optical disc players are not agreed on yet, we can't be 100% certain that this option will exist, but the sheer size of the installed home theater user base (far larger than existed when DVD arrived in 1997 with built-in Dobly Digital decoders on most early players) and the ability to restrict the digital audio signal to inside the player chassis (as the record labels required DVD-Audio and SACD to do for years) leads me to beleive that it is almost unavoidable.

If you find yourself really wanting to have a pre/pro with built-in decoding for DD+ and DTS-HD, then there is a rather roundabout upgrade solution that Prefect mentions: keep the amp you are about to buy, buy a new processor that offers the features that will eventually become available, and sell the 990 on a site like Audiogon to help pay for the new toy. It may not have as high a spouse acceptance factor as updating an existing component, but the cost after the proceeds from the sale of the 990 are factored in (assuming the replacement is priced similarly to the 990) would not be much different than the cost that Anthem AVM-20/30/D1 owners may face to upgrade their units to support HDMI later this year. A prime example of this is the number of 990 owners who helped fund their upgrades by selling 950's.

Lastly, I will commend you on your speakers - I run a somewhat lesser and older version of the same gear (in my case, Studio/60v2 mains, Studio/CCv2 center, and Studio/ADPv2 rear surrounds along with Axiom M3ti side surrounds and an Outlaw LFM-1 sub). Outlaw amps are very well regarded and have been very happily powering my Paradigms for several years now. I had a brief thought about suggesting that you consider supplementing the 7125's 125W/channel rating with a pair of M200's for the big Studio/100's (the combination would still come in under your $2500 budget), but it is probably not necessary. It occured to me because I have a pair of M200's driving my Studio/60's (made necessary in my case by a need for extra channels of amplification after a used stereo amp responsible for the rear surrounds retired itself). In the 7125's defense, however, I must remind myself that I had great luck driving my Studio/60's with my Model 750 amp (165W per channel) and even got pleasing results driving them with my old Model 1050 receiver (65W per channel) - the 7125 would be a nice improvement over the Denon's 110W of receiver amp. I think the combination would work quite well.

I think this is a no brainer if your budget is $2500: Audition the 990 in your own home, and take advantage of Outlaw's 30 day return policy.

From a review of the Denon AVR 3802 at http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/denonav3802 : "There is a 5.1 'ext' analog in, expressly designed for high-quality audio devices such as an SACD player, so we can optimistically assume that it does not ruin this by converting it to PCM for processing."

I've never tried this, but it may be possible to run the 5.1 outputs from the 990 into the 3802 5.1 inputs, so as to use it's amps with the 990. You'd have to set the 3802 flat across all speakers, at a fixed level (probably close to max), and calibrate with the 990. That would let you evaluate the 990 by itself without having to get a bunch of amps or a 7125 that would cost you plenty to ship both ways if you decided you didn't like the 990.

Of course, it would be ideal if you could audition the final setup in one step, and not do it piecemeal -- how much are you willing to risk on shipping if you don't like the 990?

You can add my name to the list of extremely satisfied 990 owners, by the way.

I do have reservations about the M200, and because of that am wary of Outlaw amps in general, but that's based on reviews and measurements -- I don't own one, haven't auditioned one, and others claim to love them. I guess I'm just not fond of Class AB/G amps. YMMV

Rene - For what it's worth, the M200 is a completely different design from Outlaw's multichannel amps, which are all traditional class AB.

Thanks for the correction, gonk. I wouldn't want to mislead anyone.

My dislike of the M200 and subsequent wariness about Outlaw's other amps might be irrational -- it is not based on personal experience, just what I've read from sources that appear reputable. Others like Outlaw amps a great deal, and their opionions should carry at least the same weight as mine in the minds of the undecided -- and probably a good deal more if they actually own them.

I mention it only to suggest that I'm providing an unbiased opinion and am not acting as an Outlaw shill -- I honestly do like the 990 very much, for example.

Personally, I like Class A amps, and will settle for Class A/AB for budgetary constraints. Even with the A/AB compromise, a decent stereo amp will run around $1200. That does not mean that an M200 at $299 does not represent good value -- it just isn't for me.

I too was a new Outlaw when I made the move to the 990/755 combo a couple months ago. This forum was one of the final reasons I opted to give Outlaw a try over other more expensive brands I checked out. The guys here are super nice, give honest advice and opinions. I took the 30 day risk and never once thought about a return.

Trying to keep up the honesty that goes here, quality of sound is such a subjective thing that it’s hard to guarantee the likes of others. But, I do think the quality, pure musical fidelity and bang for the buck of the 990 does appeal to the masses and make it a safe bet. I can say from all the brands I tried,(Rotel, B&K Adcom & older Madrigal Proceed) I liked the Outlaw best. To my ears it was very comparable in fidelity to the older, but very highly acclaimed Proceed gear. This was also seconded by the guy who owns the complete Proceed setup. He was very impressed with my Outlaw setup.

As for how Outlaw gear sounds with Paradigm? - AMAZING! ..And I'm running the less prestigious Monitor Version 4 series.

Bottom line, I’m a proud Outlaw owner. I have zero thoughts of what’s out there which might be better and I have no reservations about recommending Outlaw. My system now has a huge wow factor. In fact, a friend of mine looking to upgrade his home theater auditioned my gear has now made the Outlaw 990 and one of the Outlaw amps his first choice. I think when folks see and here them in person, they sell themselves

Houghers,

It looks like your problem is mostly technical (will the Outlaw stack keep you from premature upgrades?) and partly social/political (will your wife see your inevitable upgrades as premature or appropriate?). Others on this list can discuss the technical far more knowledgably than I can, but your concern is the same as mine was a few months ago so I'm very sympathic to what you're trying to accomplish.

On the other hand, I've got a solution to the social problem that works for me and has worked for many years (38 married years to a spouse who is "amused" at my technophilia). I simply commit to keeping a particular purchase for a specified number of years. For example, I got a new Dell in January after keeping my previous laptop for 6 years (I had promised no upgrades for 5; the new one is going to last 4 years). I'm in the middle of a 5-year no-upgrades guarantee on my SUV. I "guaranteed" my 990 for 3 years and my 7100 for 5 years. It works for us, keeps peace in the home, and when upgrade time comes, it's nearly always free of unpleasantness. It's also fair to both of us: I get to set the time frame, and she gets a predictable period of not having to hear me complain about how far behind I'm getting

On the social front, I find that if I purchase a new toy for "the wife" when I get one for myself, it keeps the peace.

I'm in the process of building a silent MythTV client with HD capabilities based on a Via nano-ITX board containing an EPIA N CPU, CN400 HD MPEG2/MPEG 4 decoder, VT1625 RGB to YPbPr encoder. After waiting for months for the nano-ITX board to ship, I managed to snag one. Of course, this $470 toy ($400 for the board, $70 for RAM), meant I had to get my wife a digital camera. Fortunately, she settled for a $90 Cobra 4.2 MP and 512MB SD card (also around $90 for the 20 MB/s version).

I call it the "marriage tax".

The MythTV client will be in a Silverstone Lascala LC08 case, with slot-loading DVD/RW drive, and 200 GB or 400 GB hard disk. Overall budget for it is around $1000. A bit expensive for a glorified networked DVD player, I suppose, but the option for over-the-net remote ripped DVD and saved HD program playback is priceless to me. Of course, it will play back CDs as well (from a CD, local disk, or ripped copies over the net).

Making such a device is easy. Making it fanless is hard. Damn hard. While the hard disk might produce some noise, it is possible to make a completely diskless version with all media access via the local drive or over the net.

$90 camera and an SD card is vastly preferable to a fur coat or diamonds. Consider yourself a lucky man!

It depends on the new gadget and on the wife (and I'll preface this by saying that my wife is quite understanding about my system), but in some cases there have been features of a new product that went a long way to selling my wife on the new toy. The DVD recorder didn't hold much interest for her when it arrived (my reason for getting it was to archive dad's VHS tapes of the family), but once we started time-shifting some favorite shows on its hard drive (especially back when I had time to cut out ads before we watched them) she was hooked. She looked a bit dubious about the MX-500 remote at first, but once I had it set up to be as intuitive as possible for her to use she declared it to be the best upgrade the system has had. And on the 990, the ability to rename video inputs was a big deal for her - it eliminated the headache of remembering if VIDEO2 was cable or the DVD-R.

Of course some upgrades aren't such smash hits. The universal DVD player's DVD-A and SACD support didn't generate much interest and the original sub - an SVS cylinder - took a bit of getting used to (in fact, the looks of the SVS helped get it replaced by the more traditional looking and shorter LFM-1 when we moved last year). In those cases, she's kind enough to humor me.

I can't thank you guys enough! That was great advice. My mind has definitely been made up. The 990 will be my next addition.

Like you, Gonk, I have a very understanding wife. My HT system has seen some considerable upgrades (the speakers are about 6 months old) and she rolled with the punches well. I can't even begin to describe the blank look on her face when I explained what exactly my new Monster AVS 2000 voltage stabilizer did...

At any rate, I'm looking forward to the arrival of my 990/7125 stack. Thanks to all of you for your honesty and wisdom.

Houghers

Yeah, that would be a hard sell.

Well, my wife is more into movies than I am, though she'd be happy with two channel playback through the TV's speakers. I want a high-quality stereo system for music. But, when it comes to other things, I want high quality too, so I won't settle for "two channel playback through the TV's speakers".

That does cause a bit of a dilema because, while my wife likes the idea of a theatre, she doesn't see the need for better speakers, a subwoofer, a decent pre/pro... until she hears the difference. Purely technical improvements, like my Odyssey Stratos amp, therefore, are a hard sell.

I'm pretty much settled on BG Radia R32i inwall speakers for surrounds, but at $1k a pop, and $1800 for a centre channel speaker, along with a stereo and three mono Stratos amps, that totals $10k, $6.8k if I do 5.1 first and then 7.1, which I probably will. Last will be "a real" projector and screen. I am tempted to add three more R32i speakers for front L/C/R inwall, or two R75i/R8i and one R32i -- only to have a complete built in theatre -- that would make sense if I got a ceiling mounted projector.

Of course, that's a lot of $$$, and isn't going to happen any time soon But, one can plan (and dream).

Welcome to the forum, Houghers!

Better yet, congratulations on the 990/7125 stack!

I've been using Outlaw products since my 1050, my first stack was a 950/770 combo and I am now using the 990/770. I couldn't be happier.

Well, I am in corporate housing and I'm NOT using my gear, so I guess I could be happier; though they did supply us with a slick RCA 5 disc stereo :p

Anyway, enjoy the gear, it's a great investment.