I received the 990 processor yesterday, I just finished setting it up, and I must say I 'm not impressed. The thing sounds like an FM radio station compared to my Harman Kardon 525 receiver.

I'm really disappointed, I should have suspected it. I posted many topics before ordering the thing asking for info on the musicality of this thing, no one on this forum or other forums can give me a direct answer. Then, I read the review from one idiot claiming that the thing sounds better than his Lexicon MC1. (#!#@*!#! what a big fat lie! ).

It will cost me another $60 returning the thing back + I won't get back the extra 3% my credit card charged me to do the USD/CND conversion, plus I'm wondering whether I will get the $280 (UPS Custom charge +GST/PST) the Canadian customs charged me.

First, I noticed, the HK volume range is around -76dB to +10dB the 990 is -76dB to +8dB. With the HK in stereo my volume level is usually set to -35dB (-28dB for moderate listening). With the 990 even at -19dB the thing is nowhere near the level the HK(-28dB) put out.

Second, the subwoofer output (With the tone->bass set to +6) compared to the HK is not even half of the HK bass output.

Third, the sound is so flat compared to the HK525 even in the upsample mode.

Fourth, this thing for a pre/pro is huge. It is almost twice the size of my HK 525 receiver, but only weights a third the weight of the HK.

I won't call the $1100 price tag a rip off but it does not worth that much if you take into account an HK 635 can be bought for around $700.

The only things I like about this unit are the Auto setup feature, and the easy setup. Remote control is also good.

Anyone who really thinks of putting this thing in the same league with the Anthem, Lexicon or for god sake a high end receiver such as HK needs some real professional help.

Sorry to hear you're not happy with the 990. If it sounds as bad as you say, I'm wondering if maybe there's some flaw with your unit.
How are you connecting you audio source to the 990? Analogue or digital? CD's sounds great on mine...stereo, upsampled or bypass. My previous pre/pro was an Adcom GTP 600, with which I used the analogue-out from a CD player and it functined purely as a preamp. Going digital out from my player to my 990, CD's sound better.
Of course, movie sound tracks are a world of difference, as my Adcom was pre-Dolby Digital (DPL only). DVD-A via the 7.1 direct input sounds great also. But I have no experience with your HK, so I won't attempt to tell you that what you're hearing isn't valid. It does however make me think there may be some malfunction with your unit or setup if it sounds that bad.

Its too bad you feel that way. Obviously these things are subjective. I think in the long run you will find most consumers and professional reviewers will disagree with you, but that doesn't mean you are wrong. It may not matter to you, but I think calling Steve Simon a liar and also insinuating that you were suckered into buying the 990 is in bad form but like I said, thats your opinion. You may want to contact Outlaw to see if you received a faulty unit. If you end up sending it back, good luck with your HK gear. Funny, I disagree with pretty much everything you say including the positives. The auto setup is mediocre, the setup is severely hindered by not having front panel capabilities, and the remote, IMO, is lacking.

I am sorry you are disapointed.

You are free, of course, to send the unit back.

While the difficulty of dealing with Canada/US customs, customs broker fees, credit card currency exchange rates, and trying to recover GST/PST will no doubt increase your aggavation and expense compared to a U.S. resident customer, that is not Outlaw's fault. The evaluation risk for an out of country buyer is just plain greater than for one within the U.S.

It may be the case that you received a defective unit. Perhaps ytou should try to see if Outlaw thinks so, based on your experience with the unit. But, I would ask some friends what they think first.

I hate to say this, but my BS detector is starting to go off. Perhaps there is a reasonable explanation for my suspicions, but I wonder about the following:

1) Are you seriously comparing a HK 525 Receiver with 70 W/ch outputs against a generally recognized decent A/V pre/pro with 200 W/ch THX Ultra2-certified Aragon 2005 and 2002 amps? That's some $4k of amps there. I could see that you might consider the 990 inferior to the build quality of these amps, but not using the HK 525 as a reference.

2) The HK, like many cheap mid-fi receivers is likely "disco-equalized": boosted in the treble and bass, with a subdued midrange. (Note: I have not verified this, but it is common with mid-fi equipment). This makes it sound "louder" than it is and the effect is often initally pleasing: the music has "presence". It also tends to be tiring on most critical listener's ears after a short while. A higher-end pre/pro would tend to be more neutral and thus seam "dark" and quiet to you. Perhaps you like the sound of the HK.

3) If you went ahead and purchased $4k of Aragon amps, why are you kvetching about the shipping and customs cost of returning a $1.1k pre/pro? Chalk it up to experience. Just bite the bullet and pick up a nice Krell A/V pre/pro, often discounted for US$2.5k. Personally, I think the 990 is just as good, and if you really dislike the sound of one, you'll probably dislike the sound of the other. If anything, the Krell is a bit less hot than the 990, though not to a degree really worth mentioning.

4) Complaining about a difference of 2 db in attenuation/gain range? That really isn't audible. FWIW, when I run my 990 at -10dB to -6dB through my 150 W/ch Odyssey Stratos driving Radia 520i speakers (not known for their efficiency: about 86-88 dB/W/1m), it is about as loud as I ever care for it to be. If anything, attenuation all the way down to -76 dB might be a bit much, but hey.


5) You say automatic setup was "easy" but then you complain about the result. Doesn't sound "easy" to me.

Wow. I have a very different opinion of the 990 than Pythagore but listening enjoyment is very subjective. What one person considers to be tight well defined bass, another considers to be a lack of bass. I have also heard people describe the treble response of a particular speaker as extended and clear while others describe those same speakers as harsh. Possibly some of us just have hearing that is more sensitive to certain frequencies than others or we may have a decided bias toward a certain type of sound.

I have also found that while spending some time listening to a new component my opinion has sometimes changed. People disagree as to the cause of this and I don't have the ultimate answer but I do know that we have a tendency to get used to a certain type of sound and then compare it to anything different. If Pythagore liked the sound of his HK receiver and doesn't like the sound of the 990, it may just indicate that the 990 sounds different than the sound that he was used to and enjoyed from his HK. I thought that my 990 sounded different than my Denon receiver but I liked the difference, therefore I was very pleased with the 990.

Sorry to hear that you have been disappointed. As a rule, I always recommend waiting a little while before condemning a new piece of gear with a solid reputation such as the 990. There have been many cases in the past of people setting up new components (especially receivers or processors) and initially being disappointed, only to discover that they overlooked something that completely changes the overall sound. I had a co-worker who brought home a Rotel 1068 a year or so ago and was ready to box it back up after a day or so because it sounded so bad, only to discover that the speaker setup was steering everything below 80Hz to a nonexistent subwoofer. It's an extreme example, of course, but it still points out the potential for simple setting changes to radically change the overall sound.

If both units are calibrated to the same level with the volume set to 0dB, this should not be happening. It sounds like either the HK was calibrated significantly hotter than the 990, or the 990 calibration needs to be re-visited. I like the 990's auto-setup, but I'm a bit old-fashioned - I still recommend keeping a Radio Shack SPL meter handy.

Again, there's either something awry with the calibration, or the HK has some sort of bass boost going on. The 990's design does not under normal circumstances "lose" low frequency information.

I haven't heard the HK, but I can speak to how the 990 sounds in my system, and I would certainly not classify the sound as "flat." Does that mean it is not flat in your system and to your ear? No, it doesn't. But the fact that it sounds flat to you at the moment does not mean that the unit sounds flat in every system and to every ear. Or are all of the Model 990 and Sherwood P-965 owners idiots for liking how their systems sound? Based on some comments in your post, that seems to be your assertion, and I simply can't agree with that.

Oh, yeah, it's definitely big. There's some interesting lineage going on in the design here: The P-965 that the 990 is based on has a receiver cousin called the R-965, which is identical to the P-965 except for the addition of seven channels of amplification on the left and right sides of the cabinet (binding posts located where the 990 has balanced outputs and DVI switching). The P-965 has large expanses of blank space on the sides of the rear panel. That's the reason that the 990 and P-965 ended up tucked into such a large cabinet. As to the weight, the fact that the 990 is only a third of the weight suggests that the pre/pro section has a lot more of something packed in, because the HK has a bunch of heavy amp channels, power supply, and heat sinks weighing it down. When compared to other processors , the 990 is actually on the heavy side.

That's a rather bold statement. Personally, I don't have the first-hand experience to speak to how it compares to Anthem or Lexicon. I will say that if your HK sounds that much better, then either you have a strong personal preference for the sonic characteristics of the HK (which can't be ruled out and is an entirely possible scenario) or there may be something wrong with the setup of the 990. As an aside, I'd be sincerely curious to hear a comparison of your HK as pre/pro to an Anthem or Lexicon if you've been able to make such a comparison.

not to be rude but I listened to an HK avr7300 and it didn't come close to the 990 so there must be something wrong with your calibration.

Agreed.

To the original poster, before you send it back, since you've got some time...

In my admittedly limited experience, these kinds of things are classic symptoms of setup problems. There's absolutely no reason why the raw sub output should be so much lower, for instance. I'd check for things like proper polarity, try manual setup instead of the auto setup (use a sound meter if you have one), and see if you can't get it to sound a whole lot better.

If that still doesn't do it for you, then by all means send it back. Hope you can recoup the other fees in that case.

(Disclaimer: I don't own a 990, but have a 950.)

he mentions no amplifier??? what amp did he go with??? i'll admit hk's are nice recievers and decent as prepros .. but the 990 is better ... ive used my hk avr310 and my avr7300 as recievers and prepros.. now they are just recievers in other rooms.. the 990 won easily.. i used the same ati1506 amplifier on all three.. and i find the upsampling very impressive,, oh and to ever said HK is disco .. no hk is about the best at giving midrange in mass produced recievers..,, i run tannoy dual concentrics all around .. great mids.. i was planning on testing the 990 out being disapointed and sending back... found the opposite.. oh and bass output is fine in my system

Based on his sig, he was already running an Aragon 2002 for the fronts and an Aragon 2005 for the center and surrounds.

Very sorry to hear about your experience Pythagore, but one of three things is happening:

1. You said you liked the auto-setup feature, which tells me you used it to setup the 990. This feature has been shown to occasionally do wierd things to speaker configurations, and it is quite possible that the sound characteristics you are describing are caused by an incorrect speaker setup.

2. You received a defective unit. Not as likely, but as always with manufactured products it is possible.

3. If you went from a receiver to a good pre/pro amp combination and are primarily listening to MP3s (as was suggested in an earlier post you made to this forum), you may be hearing flaws in the encoded source material for the first time. I know in my experience MP3s sound pretty good on mass-market home stereo, car stereos and computer sound systems, but can sound pretty god-awful on a real audiophile system.

Hope this works out for you.

I would suspect either a setup issue or a defective preamp. There is no way it can sound as bad as you are saying unless there is an issue. This is a critically acclaimed pre-amp that is based on the same architecture as the Sherwood P-965 (another critically acclaimed pre-amp) not some cheapo $200 buck receiver. Even if you prefer the sound of the HK, it is not normal to hear such variances in sound out of ANY pre-amp or any decent solid state equipment period. The volume level complaint is even stranger. Is he comparing the HK with built in amplification versus the 990 with an amp? If so what amp is he using? Is the HK just being used as a pre-amp? The amp determines how loud things get not the pre-amp. Another strange thing is putting the HK (a $700 reciever) in the same league or superior to Lexicon and Anthem. HK is a good reciever no doubt but there is NO way it uses the same quality DAC, DSP, etc. in that price range. There is NO way it has amplification comparable to dedicated amps. At most it can sound as good as the pre-amps. You either are very sonically used to the sound from your HK, there is a problem with your setup, or you have a defective unit.

Hello Pythagore, I would definitely recommend that you revisit your set up procedure for the 990, and give it another chance. I would also recommend that you call Outlaw customer support for some assistance with the set up procedure, and processes. In my humble opinion, there must be something very wrong with your set up, and until you talk with customer support, and run through some checks etc... I would like to politely recommend, that you try, and calm down a little. I would find it very hard to believe that you would end up preferring the HK over the 990 with the proper set up etc... Please continue to share your thoughts with us.

I'm not too proud to miss an opportunity to beat a dead horse, so...

Give the 990 another shot. You might have an issue with the setup.

I've got a 950, 990, and AVM20 in my room with the interconnects wired through switches for quick A/B/C comparisons and to say that the 990 isn't in the same league as Anthem as far as audio quality goes just isn't correct. I can tell them apart in a blind test, but not 100% of the time. In my setup, the 990 sounds closer than you think to the Anthem. (But the Anthem's setup/bass management/software is definitely a step forward).

Cary

I think it's safe to say this was just flamebait.

Legitimate grips or "flamebait", I'd like to commend all of the Outlaws for the very helpful advice and extremely civil courtesy shown to Pythagore. The sense of genuine concern and constructive criticism shown by almost everybody in all of the Outlaw forums is what keeps me coming back here regularly. I have a tendency to get turned off by the flame wars that rage in many other forums. Everyone, give yourselves a pat on the back. And thanks.

Jeff

I agree with braidkid and Rene my BS meter is tipping in the red .

Pythagore, go ahead and send it back I could use a B-stock 990 anyway .

Now that was funny.

Hmm, so I can still send my 990 back if a B-stock shows up soon? :-)

I suspect, however, that the discount on the B-stock equipment would be less than the shipping and insurance I'd have to pay. (Not to mention, the reduced warranty). Even if it weren't the case, it would be a very dirty thing to do to Outlaw: swapping a new 990 for a B-stock one, to save a few pennies. And, I'd have no desire to do that. (Furthermore, if they don't explicitly forbid the practice, they should, if only by selecting a B-stock discount that does not make it economically sensible).

Nah, unlike Pythagore, I like my 990 very much.

Also, I did not say my BS meter was "in the red" when reading Pythagore's post, I just noted that the needle was starting to move a little.
I did comment that the HK 525 might be plagued with "disco equalization" common to many cheap receivers, and that Pythagore might actually like that sound, with the caveat that I handn't heard this particular unit. I do think the most likely problem, as others have suggested, is that it auto-setup badly, and Pythagore should try again.

I know Rene . I said my meter was in the red . I only agreed with you that something was a little awkard about this post like it was an attempt to start something .

Of course my BS meter sometimes gives me inaccurate readings . Like my SPL meter I picked it up at Radio Shack for less than 50 bucks .

Flamebait? That's not my type. Why would I spent my time and money ordering something just to flame it. I won't waste my time (Actually, I don't have much of it anyway) with you. Please, spare me of your non-sense.

I had a call from Tech support this morning, but unfortunately, I was at work and was in the middle of a conference call. I just got home and try to call technical support but I got the voice mail. I work from 8AM to 7-8PM, my only chance to get in touch with technical support will be next Friday since July 1st is holiday here in Canada.

I'm not sure what you guys mean by something wrong with my setup; I just pulled the pre-out/sub cables from my HK525 and connected them to my 990. All my cables are properly labeled.

I actually, wrote down the same calibration parameters generated by the 990 auto-setup, I disconnected the 990 and put back the HK525, and calibrated the HK with those parameters. Again the volume level on the HK at -30dB was already loud enough while I needed to set the level on the Outlaw at -19dB to get the same output.

The bass level is so low on the 990 with the tone->bass set to +6dB. I have a computer connected digitally to the 990. I played my mp3 files (ripped at Variable bit rate with Winamp pro 224Kbps - 320Kbps). Winamp is configured with the following plugins (Output->Asio->sample rate =48KHz + Input->Mad 24bit).

Thanks Guy for your help, but you can understand why I'm so frustrated, I was waiting for this unit very badly. Actually, when I bought my Aragon amps 2 weeks ago, I was also offered an excellent deal on the Aragon Stage One pre/pro but turned it down in favor of the 990.

Good to hear back from you Pythagore. I am not sure why you are hearing what you are, but if it is drastically worse than your HK receiver something tells me that either it's not set up correctly or its faulty. If not, that really sucks about the amount of money you invested in this trial. Perhaps it would be cheaper to sell it to somebody in Canada to save them from the fees.

Also, I am not sure I am following you, but using Outlaw's parameters on your HK is not going to work. I don't know of any receivers or pre/pro that have universal parameters. Every system will be different and will have to be calibrated individually. Just pick a number to use as your reference and dial it in to 75dbs. Just curious, but does HK's volume stop at 0 or does it keep going past 0 to +10 like the 990? That could explain that issue, even though it really is a non issue.

Do you have equipment and/or an audio card for your PC and software to do a test sweep of the HK525 and the 990?

That would tell you if there is a signal processing problem with the 990.

Alternately, a test tone CD and AC voltmeter (from RadioShack) could tell you the same thing, if it is a gross level problem.

You can also try a bypassed analog stereo connection from a CD/DVD player and compare levels between that and the same signal through a digital input to see if there is a discrepancy.

It may very well be that you have a defective unit.

IIRC, a long time ago, Outlaw had quality problems with a small fraction of units.

I concur that something is defective. I haven't had more than a couple of hours to listen to my 990 which is why I haven't posted a review but from what I've heard so far there is no way Pythagore's unit is working correctly. I switched from a Lexicon DC-1 to the 990 and there's no comparison (no surprise since the lex was 10 or more year old technology). I run digital out from a Denon 3910 to a DEQX PDC2.6 to a 3 way Dynaudio system of my own design and construction for stereo music (I use Anthem and Acurus Amps). The system is capable of very high quality sound. I highly recommend the DEQX but being 2-channel is doesn't cut it for HT. When I fed CD digital into the 990 and then routed it into the analog of the DEQX there wasn't a great deal of difference to be heard. The bass and midrange on the 990 are tight, authoritative and contolled. The higher frequencies sound excellent but have an ever so slight masking of clarity and transparency compared to the Denon-DEQX direct comparison--but not by much. And for a lot less $$$. The 990 is a lot closer to high end processors than it is an HK receiver. Pythagore needs to have his unit exchanged or serviced unless something is just plain wrong with the set up. Pythagore's observations about levels suggest something may in fact be wrong with the unit. Nobody but nobody can afford to build electronics without making a few duds. High end suppliers catch these in house by testing before shipping while mass marketers use consumers for QC. At the price, the 990 is amazing but there will be some returns. Sorry that Pythagore was the first to report less than desired results. When he gets a fully functional unit he will grow to love the 990. Especially for movies and TV where it excels.

My congratulations to all you Outlaws for keeping it civil. I hate flaming forums. Pythagore especially is to be commended for keeping his cool in a time of crisis.

AudioBear: Nice setup.

Pythagore: You should probably lay off the tone controls for now, they're intended for after all the speakers are in balance. If your subwoofer has somehow become out of phase with your mains and they're fighting each other, for instance, increasing the bass tone control will just make them fight each other harder, and you'll still get a suckout that sounds terrible.

If you don't mind, what speaker trim values did you end up with after the auto setup? Maybe some of the other 990 owners can take a look at your numbers and see if something looks odd.

You can't use the same channel trim settings for two different units and get the same output levels. The trim settings will be different for each piece of equipment. To directly compare the two, use an SPL meter to calibrate both units to the same dB level (typically 75dB) with the volume positions at 0dB. To further make it as comparable as possible, you might also use a test disc such as Digital Video Essentials or AVIA for the test tones, although unless the HK's test tones are really odd somehow there shouldn't be a need to take it that far.

I agree with R. Mackey that it would be best to leave the tone controls flat while getting the basic calibration done. Also, check the HK's settings to make sure you don't have some sort of bass boost turned on - a setting like that could really screw with your perceptions when comparing two units.

Guys,

Please don't attack our fellow Outlaws. Pythagore has a problem and is understandably aggravated. I know if I had just plunked down 1100 bucks on a piece of electronic gear plus another several hundred on customs and shipping, and it didn't work I would be plenty upset, and likely to vent on the manufacturers forum.

Pythagore,

I agree with the other Outlaws that said something has to be amiss with your 990. Based on the details you have given about the MP3s you are listening to, I take back what I said about that being an issue. With MP3s of that quality you should get reasonable sound quality.

When I manually configured my 990, the point at which I got 80dB SPL on the meter was at around -10dB on the master volume control, and that was with the subwoofer configured in the 990 to -10dB! If you are getting insufficient volume, you either have a defective unit or there is a problem with the speaker setup. The fact that you tried the preouts on your old receiver and didn't get a roughly similar result would definitely seem to point to a problem with the 990.

Please describe your home theater in greater detail. What amps, speakers, and input devices do you have and how are they wired up. Some of these guys (Gonk for instance) are very tech savvy and will try their best to help if they can.

If you have access to the AVIA or Video Essentials test disks and an analog sound pressure meter, try running a few tests. This might reveal a subtle problem of some kind that might be related to something as simple as a phase problem of some kind with the way your pre-out/amps/speakers are hooked up. Since you tried the same hookup with your reciever this isn't likely, but you never know.

Once again, I hope you get this problem fixed to your satisfaction.

I noticed something with the auto setup that I

Sorry about that. As I was saying...

I noticed something with the auto setup that I was wondering if someone could explain what was going on and if it could be Pythagore's problem.

Before running the auto setup I first turned my sub amp volume control from about the 1:00 pos. to about 9:00 per another thread in this forum. I then ran the setup and got that problem people see about the front and rears being swapped. I then shut off my sub and re-ran the setup. I turned on the sub just as the sub test was starting. Everything seemed to setup correctly this time. Note: The sub was assigned a correction of -1dB.

So I put in a movie and it is like there is no bass at all. Then I remember I turned the volume down on my sub. I go and turn it up to were it was set, and I have bass again. This gets me thinking that the auto setup did not work very well. I mean if the auto setup set the correction for the sub at -1dB with the volume level turned down, then why do I need to turn the volume level back up on my sub?

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind using a different volume setting on your sub for calibration than for normal operation - that seems to me to defeat the purpose of calibrating. If your sub has an internal crossover, however, I would certainly enable the crossover for the calibration process (since the test tone is full range) and then go back to bypassing it afterward.

Interesting Clo2016, before running the auto setup I put the Lowpass filter on the sub to max (120Hz),after the auto setup my sub was calibrated to -1dB.

I left the calibrated value as is and changed the level on the sub, The level on the sub is adjusted to +3 (Assuming the starting point is 0).

My other concern is the volume level. I need to put the volume level to -10dB in order to have my usual listening dB, which doesn't leave me much if I want to crank the volume up when I have friends over or if I want to listen to concert level. (I do have space and no neighbor to bother, so I usually listen to music at moderate level). I don't care much about movies; any $300-$500 will do a decent job when feeding it a DD signal.

Today, the only day off I have and I call the customer support to find out that they work only until noon today. I think I'm done, I will just go to the dealer where I bought my amps tomorrow morning and pick up the Aragon Stage One.

If this unit sonic performance was as you guys keep pointing out, I could have turn a blind eye on the fact that I don't like the way it fits in my Home theater room decor. But, It failed to deliver to my expectation. At this point I'll take the $350 lost and send it back.

Thank you, for being very patient with me. I apologize if I came a bit strong on my first post.

Regards,

Just wanted to add two thoughts which are semi-related to this thread:

1) If there was one "tweak" piece of equipment in the audiophile world that should be mandatory for every set-up, it's a SPL meter. For the $30 or so dollars for the Radio Shack analog version, you get one of the best and easiest set-up/calibration tools out there.

2) The most underrated piece of set-up/calibration equipment is your ears. If the measurements don't make sense, listen to the system and adjust. There are so many acoustical/physical impedments in the typical user listening room that the only tool you can truly trust is your ears. If it sounds good and you're not damaging the equipment, you're set.

Pythagore, I'm sorry that Outlaw equipment didn't work out in your system. I hope you have better luck with the Aragon. In the end, it's all about the music.

This is the part I am having a hard time understanding. If you have an SPL meter set the volume on the 990 to -10 and then run through the channel configuration and use the pink noise to dial each speaker to 75 db. This way you should have plenty of headroom since the 990 goes to +10.

Hurry, Hurry! Step right up!!

we have 990 B Stock!

Step right up!

:-)

Too bad the 990 didn't work out for Pythagore, though.

gonk, the reason I used the lower level at setup was due to the thread: "anyone feel the auto calibration tone may damage the LFM1?" on this forum. I have a four 15" driver IB driven with a 2400 Watt amp and I did not want to run the risk of bottoming my drivers. Even though I turned the sub down, the output was loud and the auto setup reported a -1dB setting. But in actual use there was very low sub output level and that is why I turned it back up.

Also, after auto setup, the fronts were 0db the center was +1 dB and all the surrounds were zero dB. I got out my RS meter and ran through the test tone manually and got fronts 0dB center +6dB and surrounds +9dB.

Not sure what is up, but the auto setup did not seem to work well in my case. Or does the auto setup take something else into account that the RS meter does not?

Thanks

You're not alone. The auto setup on mine refused to recognize my center speaker or my sub, even though it played test tones over both of them. I think the auto setup software is buggy and needs some tweaking.

The Auto Set-up was a bit wonky for me as well, it wouldn't find/set my surround right-back channel, though it found the left one just fine (I swapped cables and speakers each time).

I unplugged my 950, plugged in my 990 used atuo-setup (then used the SPL meter and the auto was damn near spot on, except for the one issue). It sounded great right out of the box, I guess I got lucky!

If your still having problems I'm in Ottawa and could always drop by to give you a hand. I used the avia test disc and a spl meter on mine and a friends system and both sound great. Good luck!

pythagore,

if you decide to sell i am interested. I am from Windsor so drop me a PM or email at powerserge1@juno.com

Hi, I would not discount Pythagore so quickly. I just received my 990/755 combo and am experiencing something similar with regard to the perceived volume levels. Understand, I’ve just spent the first night with it and some of your suggestions make a lot of sense. But, my initial impression is that I have to run the 990 at a very high setting to get significant output from my system.

I’m not going to try and compare it to what I just replaced since; there is no comparison between a pre/pro and 200 watt/ch amp and a Yamaha receiver with 80 watt/ch.

I’ve been running the 990 at 0db to +2db to get what I would call moderately loud sound levels with the CD, phono, optical and coax inputs. That just seems awfully high to me since it tops out at +8db.

I did run the auto setup and I will go back and revisit the settings manually. But they did not seem outrageous when the auto setup ran.

Also, there seems to be a large disparity between volume levels when decoding dolby digital vs. DTS soundtracks. I was watching the opening battle on the Gladiator DVD and in dolby digital, I was running the 990 at 0db to +2db. When viewing the same sequence in DTS, I had to run the 990 at -13db and it was still significantly louder than the dolby digital soundtrack.

That doesn't sound right. If you have a SPL meter you may want to manually calibrate your system and see if that helps.

Whether you have a setup issue or faulty gear, I want to assure you that if you have a 755 you should be able to pump out enough noise to break windows. I have average to low efficient speakers and they can be pushed louder than anybody would want to ever hear them with my 770/990.

I agree with Jed M that this sounds a bit strange. Certainly, DTS soundtracks are always about 4dB "hotter" than Dolby Digital (that's one reason that is often sited for the perceived benefits of DTS), but they shouldn't be 13+dB louder. I tried Gladiator briefly this morning. I couldn't crank it up real high since the wife and daughter were still sleeping, but I estimated that I needed to drop the volume probably around 6dB or so when using the DTS track. I used an SPL meter to try to get the two soundtracks adjusted comparably because of the need to keep it turned down a bit and because the way that disc is mastered makes it difficult to flip back and forth quickly - the "audio" button on my DVD player's remote was disabled, and I had to go into the disc menu to switch between tracks (making it very difficult to rely on my ear alone to match the two tracks up). What I was seeing was fairly typical for a DTS track (possibly even a little moreso, which might suggest that the Gladiator DTS track is a bit hotter than usual) - and that does not match your experience at all.

I'd suggest taking a stab at calibrating with an SPL meter. If you are still having trouble getting the expected output, give Outlaw a call and see if they can help you find anything that might be messing with you.

Sounds to me like he somehow accidentally turned dynamic compression or "midnigt mode" on. As for the original poster, clearly mistakes were made during the initial setup and calibration.

This is not meant to be an insult of any kind, but this pre pro has many advanced features and I can see many people who aren't that experienced making mistakes that may dramatically alter the sound quality.

If the Outlaw 990 has complicated features to you, you definitely never owned or even touch any high end piece of audio equipment. As a matter of fact there is low end receiver out there with more features than this pre/pro.

I will reiterate what I said in my first post, that the HK 525 outplayed the 990 that was sent to me in every sens of the word. I just bought an Aragon Stage One, neither the 990 or the HK come close to this beast.

Both the HK525 and the Stage one at -30dB I can feel my sofa shaking [Big Grin] , but the 990 needed to be set to +4dB for the same output.

DB settings are meaningless in this context. HK's are not calibrated to hit reference at 0db but at some arbitrary db. Thus comparing the db settings of the HK against for example THX gear (which calibrates reference at 0db) or the Outlaw (which does the same) is meaningless. Do you know what setting you need to set your HK to hit reference?

Hmmm, and yet I am not the one who cannot make an excellent pre pro sound good. You either had a defective unit, are used to bloated highs and lows, or made a calibration error. It wouldn't make sense for the 95% of the people who own it and love it to be wildly off base, it makes more sense for the 5%.

Pythagore, no offense, but your earlier posts clearly show you do not understand how to calibrate a processor correctly. We tried to offer you advice but you did not seem at all interested in accepting it. Not trying to insult you, but when even the Outlaw bashers at the AVS forum (who would love nothing more than a review trashing the 990) discredited your opinion because they see your obvious setup mistakes, you should back down and start seeking advice instead of trying to offer it.

aragon and klipsch are sister companies..??? correct .. and i have had HK' top recievers and yes they are nice .. and will play (loud) as you say ,, but the 990 has more separation and sound quality .. i can put the hk 7300 and the hk 310 and my onkyo all next to my 990 and compare .. and have .. the hk's 2 channel is nice but the 990 is better.. the onkyo;s HT beats the hk's but isnt quite the outlaw .. oh and one big thing i think some of these folks saying the sub out is weak just have never had good bass management.. or have lower class subs .. most cheaps subs sound good at 60 to 100 hz .. well if you 990 is set to cut at 60 and your subs db at 60 hz and lower dives its not going to be loud .. you may want to make sure you didnt get a defective unit . i dont know what aragon you have but if you are comparing the stage one to a 990 the stage one is 3 times the price.. not quite a good comparison..

Mistakes in the calibration? Guys, Guys!
I was able to calibrate all other high end piece of audio equipments to the exception of the 990 which compared to my current Stage One is a small plastic gizmo?

There is nothing in the calibration procedure of the 990. Actually, the calibration process of this unit went smooth and fine, except it failed to deliver to my expectation.

Surprisingly, that all the 3 units 990, HK525 and now the Stage One came up with pretty much the same calibration values. However, the 990 sounded like a low end receiver compared to the others.

I've been reading the AVS Forum for 3 years now and never found any Outlaw basher there. As a matter of fact, I found so many Outlaw supporters there sometimes, I asked myself whether they have some kind of connection to the company. But, I realized they probably love Outlaw products, the same way I love my Klipsch products. Actually, I decided to try Outlaw product after reading so many positive feedbacks from the AVS forum.

Have you given Outlaw a call to check with their tech support team? They might be able to help make sure there's nothing physically wrong with your unit (or arrange for repairs or replacement if there is something wrong).

"...came up with pretty much the same calibration values."

HUH?

The actual amount of any offset required when calibrating (or, more correctly, adjusting the unit to the variables of the processor, amp, speakers and room) a processor or receiver may or may not be the same. That they are or aren't is of no value since it is not something you compare. The goal, as I presume you know, is to set the output levels so that all channels are equal. How you get there is of little consequence and ascribes no goodness to one unit or another.

The Aragon Stage One is THX certified. If it is properly calibrated, -30db will give you maximum output of 75db (30db below reference, which is 105db). If you're couch was shading at -30db on the Aragon there is clearly a calibration issue. Do you even know what reference is?

Agree with you, forget about the THX certification crap. If the volume range of all 3 units is exactly the same (-76dB - +8dB), and since a decibel is a decibel then 990 set at -20 dB should be equal to the Stage one set to -20dB unless the Outlaw output level is pre-set to -10 dB lower in respect to the actual volume level (probably in an effort to compensate for noise, or to reduce the high frequency noise I keep hearing from my tweeters as soon as I turn the unit on) so that when the volume is set to -20dB but actually outputs -30dB.

With a master degree in Electrical engineering in one of the most respected university in North America + 5 years of industrial experience, I should. Do you?

Well then how can you expect a THX certified pre-pro (which by definition outputs reference at 0db) to shake your couch at -30db? Am I missing something?

Just forget about the THX certification crap. I did not buy the Stage One for its THX certification. What I'm saying dB is dB, unless Outlaw has pre-set their 990 to output at a few dBs lower in respect to the volume level indicator.

THX certification has nothing to do with it. Reference calibration does. Whether you get there at 0db, -20db, or -50db is immaterial. What is important is that when you're auditing each processor that they are outputting the same SPL: and it doesn't matter where you need to set the volume control to get there. For the 990, reference is 0db (which will give you 105db at the listening position all channels driven with 115db peaks from the LFE). If you want to go beyond reference, you can get 8db above with the 990. My Lexicon MC12 in comparison went from -80 to +12 and again I hit reference at 0db. Since it didn't "shake my couch" at -30, I assume you'd say it too sounded like a low end receiver?

My Panasonic SA-XR50 (which is a low end receiver) hits reference at -17db. Does that mean it sounds like a high-end receiver?

No, I won't. I'm well aware of the capability of the Lexicon MC-12. Actually, the MC-12 is one of the receiver I auditioned after my disappointment with the 990. But, did not believe it worth the $15k Canadian price tag.

One thing you forgot to take into account is the efficiency of the speaker the 990 is connected to.

Not to take any wind out of the "magnitude of personal credentials" exchanges, I'll re-iterate my previous question - has Outlaw support been invited to lend a hand with this problem?

Gonk, yes I did, and I have nothing but praises for Outlaw customer support. I called them twice and each of the time I got someone on the phone within a minute. They listened to me very attentively and offered advices, but at the end they came to the same clonclusion as I did.

The Outlaws concluded that: "Anyone who really thinks of putting this thing in the same league with the Anthem, Lexicon or for god sake a high end receiver such as HK needs some real professional help?"

That I find hard to believe.

High frequency noise from the tweeters? Sounds like a low end receiver? Well, I'm glad you found a pre/pro you like now in the Aragon but those comments do a real dis-service to the unit I am listening to.

I've demo'd a lot of equipment and the 990 is equal to some of the lowest noise floors I've heard. This is vs. B&K, Arcam, Myryad and Citation. It's close enough in sound quality to these to be closer to a matter of personal preference than glaring flaws to determine the decision IMO. I've also listened 'middle to high end' receivers: Denon 3803 and Pio 45TX (although no H/K admittedly), and it's certainly an improvement in sound quality from these.

I'm also not an Outlaw fanboy. I've demo'd their equipment twice before this and returned it. First the 950, then the 7100. Well priced units but I felt justified in paying a little more for something I liked better in both cases. I was pleasantly surprized by the 990 though and will likely be keeping it.

Maybe you have a defective unit, setup problems or just don't find the 990's sound to your liking. But, any more extreme hyperbole and I think it's time to call shenanigans!

I don't own any Outlaw equipment and it was very clear to me from the start that this guy just wanted to stir up some shit. Pathetic really.

Pythagore, this is the last I will have to say about this because engaging in this conversation is like beating my head against a wall. You can't help those who refuse to be helped.

Please read this AVS thread, page 4, where Razvanel (a Outlaw Basher for years and has been banned from the 2nd largest HT/Audio forum because of his over the top hatred towards Outlaw) proudly mentions your "review" to rub it in to Outlaw owners. After reading your entire review, about 5 or 6 posts later he even concedes that you don't know what you are doing.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=548867
So, you can believe what you want or you can believe the people and experts who have been in this hobby for a long, long time.

It's statements like these: that make people who understand this stuff either laugh at you or shake their head. If you can't understand the glaring flaws in your statements then you should go back and study how to calibrate a system since you refuse to take advice from anyone. Just look at every post that has responded to you. The one thing they have in common is that most are trying to help correct your confusion about db levels, yet you choose to throw out your education credentials as if to say you can't be wrong since you are so smart.

Congratulations on your engineering degree, but if their curriculum was based on teaching you how to be an expert in handling HT processors then I would demand my money back. Seriously.

great post jed ....

to tell you about jed .. he is not bias i have read his reviews and comments on other forums .. he is not a outlaw hyper as i am not .. i have to say for the money this is a great product and i have auditioned very (high end ) components and find no clear winner or better unit till the 5999 $ audio control meastro .. pyth you never commented after i listed my prior expirience of prepro s and recievers as pre pros .. all we want to do is help you .. i can tell you this unit is better than the HK7300 as a prepro and that is hk's flagship .. i am a hk fan as a reciever the hk7300 is hard pressed to beat ,,, and yes i understand the efficiency of the klipsch u are using .. but these newer klipsch are not near the speakers they used to make .. 15 to 20 years (even less) ago you wouldnt see klipsch in a best buy .. now u do .. they are no longer as proud as they used to be ... note that i was a die hard klipsch fan born and raised.. sorry thats kind of irrelevant but you are comparing a aragon 4000 dollar unit to the 990 at 1100 and trying to bash it.. well your speaker choice isnt near the 4000 $$ level.. maybe your amp is lacking.. i've been a audio visual freak for years and the db and ref listening garbage is just that to me .. ive heard systems thats specs are amazing and sound pathetic .. and seen specs that arent so big sound great .. all in all .. all of this is personal preference .. some people love tube sound some dislike it ..


bottom line .. if you dont like your 990 return it .. im sure scott and the outlaw folks wouldnt mind .. but please dont come bashing .. QUOTE .. a low end reciever is better .. but in your own words.. many of us love our 990 .. and i am a first time buyer .. i was set on the emo big dog till i got my 990 .. i was figuring the 990 would not meet my expectations .. well it did ..i am truely sorry it didnt meet yours .. a simple it wasnt my taste would have been fine .. not a bunch of slander.. im sure you didnt like my comments about your klipsch ... (a little taste of how we feel about your comments about our 990's )

pyth i noticed the reply i was speaking of was in another thread so this is it.. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pythagorn ... i've used several prepro's of past and today.. olden days pre digital was adcom gsa700 then added the gdd1 digital processor to go digi.. then used a marantz 600 with their digi decoder.. bounced awhile then used a HK sig 2.0 and 2.1 .. ok then decided prepros were not keeping up with tech for awhile .. so went to recievers as prepros .. used hk7300 , onkyo801 (great for price) . ... hk 310 ... the rest of my system is a ATI 1506 bridged to 3x300 for my tannoy d6c center and tannoy dmt12II mains .. then i have a adcom gfa 545 pushing tannoy saturn8 floorstanders in rear.. oh .. i was a huge klipsch guy for years .. k horn's and forte's are two of the best speakers ever created in thier $$ range and beyond a bit .. i've heard the ref's .. if you ever wanted to upgrade speakers and still have a klipsch sound tannoy dual concentric style speakers would be what you want to audition.. the wave guide system gives a comp horn type sound but takes some harshness away.. but tannoy's are not cheap .. but if you ever had a chance check em out ... oh and i have auditioned the emo big dogs .. very impressive .. but even after hearing them i am still more impressed with my outlaw / ati ... 2 channel the outlaw hands down .. but HT the emo is a maybe a tad better .. but you must realize the emo is a 2500+ prepro .. pyth if i had bunches of cash i would have to say the audio control maestro is the most impressive prepro ive heard but at $5999 my wife would have my a__!! i am not a nad or even a anthem fan .. they seemed compressed .. well not the anthem d1 but that again is getting into another ball park price wise...

Pythagore: I will reiterate what I said in my first post, that the HK 525 outplayed the 990 that was sent to me in every sens of the word. I just bought an Aragon Stage One, neither the 990 or the HK come close to this beast.

So, what's the problem?

You didn't like the 990, got something else, and Outlaw agreed to take the 990 back.

So, what's the problem?

Shipping and currency exchange fees giving you the blues? Sorry, but it's not Outlaw's fault you don't live in the U.S. Frankly, with all the hassles to ship to Canada from the U.S. (yes, been there, done that) I'd consider that they did you a rather big favour in sending a 990 your way.

I happen to like my 990 very, very much, and don't think I could have done better for less than $5-$6k. Dead silent with no input, and gentle turn on. A very, very, little bright on the highs, perhaps, but far better than anything up to (and beyond) three times the price. Output padded down -8 dB across all channels (my sub has a level control) to get THX reference levels at 0 dB "on the dial". FWIW, I run an Odyssey Audio Stratos Plus amp into my front Bohlender-Graebner Radia 520i, and use a custom Acoustic Visions Q=0.6 sealed 96l sub with a Dayton Titanic Mk. II 12" driver and Hypex HS-200 sub amp.

Outlaw does not owe you a pre/pro that you like, at any price.

What they do owe you is to stand behind their conditions of sale, which, with their 30 day full refund period, are extremenly generous. And, I think they've kept that part of the bargain admirably, from what you've posted. Heck, if they charged a 15% restocking fee, they'd likely still lose money on returns, even if they could resell them full price as A stock (which they can't) because of restocking and repackaging labour and overhead. Do you think Outlaw could remain in business if they sold crap, and we were all shills? For a year perhaps, maybe two. Certainly not long enough to evolve their product lines.

From the equipment lists described here, quite a few 990 owners could easily spend five or perhaps even ten times as much on a pre/pro. They have chosen not to. They didn't buy the 990 as a price/performance compromise for lack of funds, I suspect. They bought it because it offered the best performance at any reasonable price.

It is entirely possible that your 990 was defective, and that Outlaw has quality control problems. I've read others having trouble setting their 990s up, and some complaints over the years (I've been lurking here over a year before I decide to purchase my 990) -- M200 monoblocks cutting off the high end and various units exhibiting power transformer buzz.

You know what? Sony, that over-priced bastion of Japanese consumer electronics, has lousy Q/C too, based on what I've seen over the years. Shit happens. I've been lucky: all my Sony TVs over the years have performed flawlessly: I had a 30" XBR for over 12 years.

At the end of the day, one has to take all the positive and negative opinions formed about a company and decide if one wants to do business with them -- if the risks are worth it. Based solely on what I've read in reviews, I'd probably never buy an M200 amp, for example. Pity, because I'd really like it to be a good amp, even at double the price. My mind might be swayed if I heard one, and I needed two channels of amplification recently, but deep down, I think I'd not be satisfied, and it would be a waste of every one's time and money if I ordered one, only to send it back.

I'd like to think that you ordered your 990 in good faith, and were just disappointd, for whatever reason. Though, if you were considering an Aragon, and ended up getting it in the end (likely having auditioned it before hand), it sure smells that you just wanted to save some money, and hoped the Outlaw 990 would serve as well, using the slightest excuse to send it back and justify the increased cost of the Aragon (which you really wanted all along). I suspect that if you kept the 990, you'd always wonder if the Aragon wouldn't be better, and be upset at the slightest perceived problem. Never mind wanting something as good as the Aragon for less money, I'll boldly guess that you wanted something noticably better for less money, and wound up disappointed. Such speculation on my part is risky, of course: I can't know your intentions, but you sure come off as having thought that way, having the same kind of prejudiced opinion about the 990 that I have about the M200 (and I openly admit to having prejudged it based on reports and reviews). The difference is that I didn't go and order something about which I had preconcieved misgivings (quite possibly unjustified), and kvetch about it, even after the vendor tried to help, and ultimately offered to refund my money. Knowing Outlaw, your money was likely refunded "cheerfully".

Fortunately, for Outlaw, while their amps don't seam to fit my standards, their pre/pro does. Unlike you, I can't afford an Aragon pre/pro today, but needed a pre/pro soon, and so, was somewhat sensitive to price.

The Stratos Plus is Class A/AB, flat from 2 Hz to 400 kHz, sports a continuous damping factor in excess of 500, balanced and unbalanced inputs, and a distortion figure under 0.04%. It weighs around 54 lbs. (24.5 kg. for Pythagore's benefit), and costs around US$1200. It comes with a 20 year warranty (transferrable to the second owner), 30 day trial period (though $120 for two-way shipping would not be cheap), and like Outlaw, the manufactur sells direct.

I could "sit here" and kvetch and complain that the M200 isn't as good an amp as the Stratos Plus. I suppose if disparaging the M200 were my intent I might actually order one and audition it to lend some credence to such complaints. Outlaw might even agree that sonically, the Statos Plus was a better amp (and note the double price point for two channels). And you know, I really wanted the M200 to be "the amp for me": a pair of sleek and "sexy" monoblocks driving each of my Radia 520i, biamped. I'd start of with two and not biamp, and save $600 in the process. And, even if the M200 proved perfect, I'd be unhappy, always wondering if the Stratos Plus wouldn'tve been a better choice. Any slight problem with the M200 would become magnified in my mind until I couldn't stand it, and I'd not have the patience to try to get it resolved.

Is that you, Pythagore? Maybe not, but your continued complaints here certainly paint you that way.

I think Pythagore has been very level-headed and up-front in this thread. He didn't care for the 990. Outlaw stood behind their return policy and he returned it. The only downside is related to his geographical location and that added to the cost of his 990 audition.

I'm not surprised that you love the Aragon preamp, Pythagore. When I added an Aragon amp to my system it was a revelation. I can only guess that their preamps are in the same class. If my bank account was in a bit better shape, I'd probably be trying to find a Stage One to compare to my Outlaw 950. Ever since getting their amp, I've lusted after one of their preamps.

I'd love to try out a 990 but I'm afraid I'd like it and it's just not in the cards at this time. Sigh.

I think Pythagore has been very level-headed and up-front in this thread. He didn't care for the 990. Outlaw stood behind their return policy and he returned it. The only downside is related to his geographical location and that added a bit to the cost of his 990

I'd agree if Pythagore voiced his satisfaction with the whole experience: that is, he tried it, didn't like it, returned it, and got his money back. The choice to deal with cross-border hassles was entirely his.

I suspect his being in Canada added more than just a bit (e.g. shipping charges, and currency exchange spread and movement) to the costs. I'm not sure if it is possible to get the taxes and duties paid on imported goods easily refunded if the goods are subsequently returned in short order because they were unsatisfactory. In any case, he won't get the customs brokerage fee refunded. But, he should have known of these risks when dealing cross-border.

I was going to check out the Odyssey Stratos amps. However, even though they offer a 30 day return policy. They explicitly state the the unit won't be "broken in" for 6 weeks of being powered on. So you effectively don't know what you're buying until after the 30 days is up. Straight from the horse's mouth:

"Within the break-in process, we distinguish four distinct phases of performance:

First Period: After turning on your amplifier or preamplifier for the first time, the units will require a few minutes to stabilize. The sound will be rather harsh on the higher frequencies, and the dynamic range is rather restricted with a flat overall presentation. This sonic signature will always be apparent when you turn on "cold" components.

Second Period: This stage will be reached after approximately 1-2 hours of playing time and lasts about 3-4 days. This stage is all about the charging of the power supply, and during this time, the dynamics, soundstaging, focus, and transients will improve noticeably. Essentially, your unit will start "opening up and relaxing." However, please also note that the amplifiers do a "Jeckyl and Hyde" during this time to some degree. Meaning that one day you might not have any bass whatsoever while the next day you might have too much of it, for example. Overall, the presentation might be very unstabile.

Third Period: After approximately 10-14 days of playing and being charged, the upper midrange and highs will "smoothen out". The bass will improve in speed and articulation with less overhang. The result is more even and natural tone balance.

Fourth Period: After about 6 weeks + of operation when left on continuously, your unit should be very close to being fully broken in. The sound and performance has progressively improved and your unit will perform to it's full sonic potential."

I've been listening to my 755 quite a bit since I received it and I'm not sure if I'm happy with it yet. It's definitely not sounding that great with the Dahlquist DQ-20i speakers I used to have for mains. I just took delivery of some Magnepan 1.6's so we'll see if things improve over a few days. I was VERY happy with my Adcom GFA-5802, but I didn't feel like dropping another $5k on 2 more for my center and surround channels.

Cheers,

oops, that probably belongs in the 755 forum, not the 990 forum. Doh!

Cheers,

Independent evidence that Pythogore's 990 was either defective or setup incorrectly:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/705outlaw/

Enjoy!!!!

I could never trust, let alone purchase from, any company that spewed out nonsense such as this.

I know, but Odyssey's amps are extremely good, despite their marketspeak.

Basically, Klaus Bunge obtained the U.S. distribution rights to a well-regarded German design, and has added his own, er, creative descriptions. Apparently, this *helps* sales more than hurts them.

They *do* have a slightly different sonic signature when left on continuously in standby mode, than if they are constantly power-cycled, though the effect is not nearly as extreme as described.

I've seen other companies guilty of such non-technical gobbledygook despite making a sound product. In fact, it appears to be du regeur in the "high end" -- look at any review of a high end component when it comes to subjective opinion. This may be pure garbage, to sway, a purchaser of somehting as "high end", and therefore esoterically described, but a piece of garbage nevertheless. Or, it may be there to *help* sell a decent product with high-end aspirations but a mid-fi price (the Stratos Plus sells for around US$1200).

Klaus claims he wants to sell high-quality equipment on a mid-fi budget, IIRC, so I suspect he includes some "high end voodoo speak". He also sells expensive interconnect cables. That doesn't mean I'd buy them, but if the profits on cables help keep the amp prices down, I'm all for it.

I can state however, unequivically, that the Stratos Plus is an overbuilt Class A/AB design, that performs excellently in my system, and is a steal at $1200.

The six week break in market speak does work against the 30 day return policy, but if, like me , you see the market speak for what it is, you'll try one and send it back if you don't like it within a weak or two, knowing that it doesn't really take six weeks to settle down. The only real downside to auditioning one is that it is heavy at 54 lbs. and ground shipping both ways (at least to Monroe, WA) is around $120 by UPS.

Upgrades are, by the way, *free*, in the sense that the cost of the upgrade is equal to the difference in price. There is the nagging shipping cost to deal with.

Bottom line: if the Odyssey were as poor or over-hyped as the market speak might suggest, it would not carry a 20 year warranty. I'm as fond of mine as I am of my 990.

I did not mean to take anything away from the actual piece of equipment, just the marketing and attitude of the company.

I also like overly built class AB amplifiers that deliver tons of clean power with high damping - that's why I'll be going with pro amps.

I did not mean to take anything away from the actual piece of equipment, just the marketing and attitude of the company.

Agreed, there.

However, I expect that from any audio company. Outlaw is a bit of an exception here.

But, if you are looking for a decent 150 W/ch class A/AB into 8ohm stereo amp, do consider the Stratos (in any of its various configurations in spite of the marketspeak voodoo -- it's also available in a monoblock 300W design, as well as dual mono (independent power supplies in one chassis). www.odysseyaudio.com is rather a bare (and dated) site. www.odysseyaudiosg.com offers more and better information, actually.

The amp is overbuilt, with a 400 W toroidal power transformer, 60,000, 120,000, or 180,000 uF of filter capacitors, heatsinks on the left and right side of the chassis, and balanced XLR inputs as well as RCA single ended inputs, with gold-plated WBT speaker terminals. Power switche(s) are on the back panel, and the unit is intended to be left on all the time. There is no provision for a trigger input.

I am extremely happy with the performance of mine.

Other areas where Klaus goes a bit overboard are the personalized nameplate stuck to the rear panel, and his praise for the isolating feet.

The nameplate comes off after a couple of days and really detracts from the professional build quality. And, I doubt the feet make that much of a difference. The manual, though technically complete, can best be described as stark: no diagrams or pictures -- rather something that kids starting a business in their garrage might produce in a hurry. Still, the amp is a steal at around US$1200. I own one, but I have no financial interest in the success of the manufacturer (they are a private company).

Klaus said he likes the nameplate to be a personal touch, that he builds the amps himself -- this is probably more true than not, given that he has "two and a half" employees. Odyssey amps have to be custom ordered (particularly if one wants one of the many cosmetic anodization treatments of the front panel and/or case), and are made to order. This is strictly a mom and pop shop that does final build and test on a tweaked licensed Symphonic Line design. I can appreciate the sentiment, even if I find the execution a bit cheesy -- I get the impression that Klaus builds amps like Lambourghini builds cars: one at a time (well, Lambourghini builds four at a time, the last time I checked, but you get the idea). The difference is that the Stratos performs like a sports car at the price of a family sedan.

Klaus likes to spend time with a prospective customer to determine their needs, present and future. For me, I'm slowly building a 5.1 or 7.1 system over time to replace my 20 year old stereo system, so I'll need amps and speakers as time goes on. I've just started with the 990 and the Stratos (replacing a Carver TFM-22, with a noticible improvement driving the 4 ohm Radia 520i speakers).

SteveCallas: if you like overbuilt amps, do consider auditioning the Stratos, if you can afford the $100 or so shipping costs if you end up returning it. In fact, if you call Klaus (it will take some time for him to return your call), he might set you up with a local owner, if possible, to check it out first. The biggest amp they make, power-wise, is their Stratos Mono Extreme: a 300Wpc class A/AB monoblock, with a damping factor over 800 and a distortion figure under 0.04%, IIRC.

Odyssey also makes a smaller amp, the Khartago, at 110 W/ch into 8 ohms in a stereo configuration and 160 W/ch into 8 ohms in a mono configuration. This design cuts costs: the speaker terminals aren't as good, and the input is strictly single-ended, to keep the price under $800. But, when I inquired, Klaus noted that he could upgrade the connectors and include a balanced input stage, if I wanted. (I'm considering it for surround speakers). You just won't get that kind of personal service at that price anywhere else.

Is the Stratos the be all and end all of amplifiers, a Krell-killer? No, of course not. But, in the $1000-range, give or take, it strikes me as excellent value. I'd be inclined to compare it to the Bryston's of old.

I appreciate all the info, and again, it sounds like a quality product, but I can get indistinguishable performance out of a $300 pro amp.

Please describe this "$300 pro amp". Seriously.

If you mean an amp designed for professional stage use, the ones I've seen usually have lousy performance (i.e. high distortion figures). Of course, they are built like tanks, given the abuse the get being moved around all the time. For the intended application, they're ideal, but I've only seen a decent one once, and that was a Crown amp that cost more than $300.

rene and steve .. the wierd break in period was also pushed by parasound sales reps in the 90's .. so its not the 1st time a company has recommended it ..

and rene i agree yes pro amps sound alright on PA systems but for high quality imaging and reproduction you need a nice full amp.. low distortion and some decent headroom .. i personally like ATI .. they make many manufacturers amps .. they are the old sae .. very neutral and powerful ..

I've still not resolved the issue with lower output levels from my 990/755. I did as suggested and manually recalibrated using a Radio Shack SPL meter. I set it for 0db on the 990 and an output of 75db at my listening position. This actually works out to be about 3db lower than the auto configuration settings the 990 came up with. I also set the sub crossover to 150hz for the rears since they are small Infinity speakers (admitted junk but working for now). At these settings, I had to run the 990 even hotter, +4db to get any significant output from the system. So, I went back to the auto configuration settings.

For comparison, I hooked my Yamaha RX-V795 back up and used the pre-outs to the 755. I got more of what I was expecting from it. During my testing of the 990 with the SPL meter, I ran the 990 up to max output, +8db playing a CD (Rush Hemispheres) and got 106db at my listening position. With the Yamaha, I got 108db at my listening position and only had the volume control on it at about 50% (sorry, Yamaha didn’t see fit to calibrate it’s volume control or I don’t have the display set to show it correctly). But, the 795 gave significantly louder output than the 990. It was more dynamic as well.

One last thing which I will check is the night setting on the 990. I didn’t specifically enable it but I will go back and double check that it is not engaged. After that, I’m going to have to call tech support.

I have to say, the sound quality of the 990/755 is very impressive. I was absolutely blown away by the sound of my phono. My vinyl albums have NEVER sounded better. Makes me want to go out and buy a new turntable.

travk13: SteveCallas sent me more info on "pro" amps, and it is interesting. But, I remain skeptical, generally because I don't like the performace one gets with them in live, amplified shows (except, perhaps, the very best ones): one wall of sound with little placement (yes, the mixing is done live and that doesn't help, but still...)

The ubiquitous fan in them is another issue for me: I like my amps close to my speakers, with long(er) balanced interconnects, as opposed to long(er) speaker runs, killing the amp's damping factor. I've got some 40 foot and longer runs in my listening/viewing room, mainly because of the way it's layed out.

Specwise, pro amp distortion and amplitude response figures never impressed me much. SteveCallas might argue that they're inaudiable: I'd have to do a double blind test to see if that was true for me.

Wow, this is getting way out of hand. On the other hand, fun to sit back and watch the back and forth. Can't help myself in responding to:

"...As a matter of fact there is low end receiver out there with more features than this pre/pro."

OK, and which "low end receiver" would that be with a DVI switching, second zone capability, USB input AND software upgradeability, balanced outputs, 4-way crossover, auto-setup (whether you like or choose to use it or not), phono section (rare these days on entry level anything), dual sub outputs, three-input/100MHz component video, video conversion from CVBS or S to component, etc...

Pythagore: Please let us know what that is, as some of us might want to buy one. If not, it would seem that for many (nothing pleases EVERYONE), the 990 appears to be a good value for the price.

Oh, yes, and apparently most people are more than satisfied with the way it sounds.

Bruce - Couple of things. Definitely check the night mode. First off you are comparing a calibrated system with an uncalibrated system. Do the two systems sound the same when played at the same levels on your meter.. say 100db? Comparing two systems at different levels will always make the louder one sound more dynamic. Are you also saying the Yammie can go significantly higher then 108db? Do you really listen to those kind of levels? If you want to play around with this some more try calibrating the 990 to 85db and see how it sounds.

What speakers are you using? Do you have a subwoofer? If so are you running your mains small and at what crossover frequency? Maybe you have something strange going on with the bass management.

Bruce,

I used a V795 as a pre/pro with a 755 until I got a a 950 and then went to a 990. I will say IMO that the 795 was as good as the 950. I never had a problem calibrating to 75db at 0 volume level with the 975 nor the 990. I can not find a volume setting referenced for calibration in the 990 manual, but 0 is what I used. Do check your night setting and connections to the 755.

Ok, I went back and looked at the documentation and the night mode only affects dolby digital signals so that is out as a possibility. I’ve done a lot of experimenting with stereo signals as well.

Obie_fl thanks for the input. Yes, the Yamaha will play significantly louder than the 990 using the same settings (as best as I can match them up). And no, I don’t regularly listen to anything that loud. I stopped where I did because I really didn’t want to destroy anything, my speakers or my hearing. My point was that I could run the 990 at 100% and I don’t think I should be able to approach that with this setup.

For the record, I’m running Klipsch KG4.5 speakers with a Klipsch KSW12 sub. These are pretty efficient speakers so I would think the 755 would drive them to those kinds of volumes with no trouble at all. I’m running the mains as large, the center and rear (5.1) as small. I’ve tried several crossover frequencies but, I know from experience around 80hz gives the smoothest transition from the mains to the sub so, that’s what I settled on. At the moment, I’m using the speaker in my Toshiba DW65X91 set for center and some small Infinity’s in the rear. This system has evolved from a stereo system to home theater over the years. A new set of speakers are next on the list of upgrades.

By the way obie_fl, awesome home theater!!!

Paratrooper, thank you as well. I’ve gotten a lot of good use out of the RX-V795 but it was lacking in some respects now. (I’ve only been using it for 6 years now) Let me ask you, would you think that you could ever run your 990/755 system at 100%? Honestly, I would expect to blow out a speaker doing that if the 755 was really being driven close to 200watts/ch. But I can set the 990 at +8db (won’t go any higher, I now know from personal experience) and everything holds together, no clipping, no distortion, woofers don’t lose control or bottom, no smoke for the tweeters

I guess a call to tech support is in the future for me. I really want this to work but right now, I’m not satisfied. And, honestly, I don’t think it is working correctly. I’ve gone through a lot of gear over the years. I’ve run these same speakers and RX-V795 with a Yamaha M80 stereo amp for years. So, I have an idea what a high power/quality amp should be able to do with them.

Oh, I tried a reset on the 990 but no joy there either.

Bruce,

I miss stated my Yamaha used as a pre/pro, it is in fact a V750 7.1 receiver.

I not sure what you mean by 100%, but calibrated to 75db at 0 volume, movies or 7 channel stereo is too damn loud for me. I have NHT speakers which love power, they can take what the 755 and two M200s put out, but my ears cannot. My normal listening level is -20 to -15 volume.

Thanks for the HT compliment I appreciate it.

OK by the sound of the above paragraph you did not understand the gist of my questions.

What I'm saying is you are comparing apples and oranges. If you adjust both systems to play at 100db on your SPL meter they should sound the same loudness wise. Ignore for the time being whatever level you have to adjust the 990 or Yammie to, it is irrelevant to the issue at hand. 100db on your sound meter is 100db it doesn't care what you have your Pre amp level set to. If the Yammie some how sounds better when it is powering your system to a 100db meter reading then the 990 at a 100db meter reading then you have a real problem. Does this make sense?

If indeed you have a sound quality problem at equal SPL levels I would still suspect something in the bass management, but it sounds to me like you are chasing your tail. What doesn’t make sense is when you said the 990 sounds very good. What exactly are you trying to gain? Are you worried about headroom? If so I’d calibrate 0db on the 990 to 85db instead of 75db.

The Klipsch are very efficient as you say so I am kind of surprised you can max out the 990.