ok we know they are in the same box... diff faceplate .. sure you add balanced outs and dvi .. but what else .. ?? i am interested in the capacitors diodes resister s etc.. power supply .. what makes me want the 990 is this outlaw craftsmanship on the inside.. because honestly sherwood was never a big contender in my elctronics to buy list.. .. a similarity i dont want this to be is like the diff on yamaha's htr line vs rvx or whatever .. little diff faceplate and presto one can be in best buy and the other in ultimate elect.. i believe all this debate is great for all of us .. the cosumer and the company .. the more knowledgeable we are the better choices we make .. then its not a surprise what we get and everybody is happy ///

For one thing, it may end up being more reliable because they have eliminated all the secondary function buttons on the front panel of the 965. Fewer buttons = fewer things to go wrong.

Also, don't forget that the menu system is significantly different, if you compare the 990 and 965 manuals. The 990 is easier to setup and has functions not available on the 965 such as the 4-way crossover, more flexible setting for lip sync delay, a system lock to prevent accidental setting changes, easy operation of the menus from the front panel, and probably some other things that I'm sure others will point out.

Getting details on the analog circuit path components and such will likely be difficult (short of somebody getting one of each and dissecting them) - even if Outlaw wanted to, they would probably be restricted from outlining it by their agreement with Etronics (the company that makes both Sherwood stuff and the 990). Look at the 950 clones: this very question was asked about the Atlantic Tech and Sherbourn clones (and even the Fosgate FAP-T1, which added a front panel video display and a lot of money to the price tag) and was never answered. One thing I will point out, though, is that the software appears to have been heavily overhauled.

I am not familiar with the sherwood, but does it have a USB/Rs232 port like the 990 does? TO me this marks a major feature that might set the two apart..

The 965 does have USB/RS232 for flash upgrades, and it does have lipsync delay.....not sure of the difference in flexibility though.

A friend of mine has one, so I am pretty familiar with it. I pretty much set it up for him.

Good luck on this one. I've been bugging AV123 about the difference between the Emotiva Big Dog and the Sunfire TGIV since before they were released.

Well the Sherwood has excellent reviews and is highly regarded. It also costs more. So we could do a lot worse than have the same architecture, additional features, and cheaper price.

sherwood is 1099 also at many places on net

The 990 does not come with the MX500 remote.

I don't know if we ever listed a full run-down of differences in this thread, so here we go: the 990 adds DVI switching, balanced pre-amp outputs, and quadruple crossover for bass management. The software has been heavily re-written and appears to be more user-friendly; it also appears to have rooted out some of the P-965's bugs along the way. It also replaces the MX-500 remote with a less expensive Catalyst48. The list price on the 990 is about $400 less than the P-965, and if you are buying amps from Outlaw at the same time you buy the 990 there are discounts available to shave a bit more off the price.

So for $500 (package price), you can buy a dandy remote..

Plus you get the other extras Gonk spoke of.. Sounds like a no brainer..

Or even better, if you already own one of those "dandy remotes", buy a 990, use the existing remote, and pocket the $500!

i dont know where you are pricing the p 965 at but they are 1068 to 1098 all over list is 1499 but who pays list / retail anyway..so for the things you gain on the 990 the remote on the 965 makes up for it .. and the 965 does have a nice bass manage system ..

You can replace a remote. You can't add the features of the 990..

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I have always found it hard to believe that people are willing to spend $1000 dollars on a processor and probably thousands more on a tv, speakers, dvd player, etc. but won't spend $150-$250 on a really nice remote control. Its one of the few things that everybody, whether a tech junkie or not, notices an improvement with and its very possible it will never need to be upgraded. I guess different strokes for different folks but I find it sad when somebody prefers one piece over another but chooses the lesser because it has a better remote.

- You make a good point, Jed M. I have a very simple argument in favor of a well-chosen universal remote: family members who use the system. If you ask my wife what the single best upgrade to the system was, she'll tell you it was the MX-500 remote we added almost two years ago. Subwoofer, HDTV, amps, progressive scan DVD player, DVD recorder with hard drive, processor all come behind the $100 remote.

Besides, remotes get stepped on, lost in the back of the fridge etc...

Remotes are almost like buying a cell phone. Some will purchase a Harmony because they are not techies and want a no brainer setup. Other will purchase a MX-1000 with two satellite remotes, multiple RF transmitters, light dimmers, shade closers and connect it to their PC and write 10,000 lines of code for it..

But once you buy a piece of gear for your HT, you are stuck with its features until you can't stand them anymore and upgrade to the latest greatest and rewrite 1000 line of code for that remote..

OK so the balanced outptus and dvi AND some (software changes) are it?? well i own a ati 1506 which i would never part with and it has no balanced inputs .. my PA DJ equiptment goes though... even outlaws own doesnt have it yet .. btw ATI makes outlaw amps .. just a little diff power supply in the outlaw.. still the outlaw amps are great.. so balanced outputs no biggy .. as for most of you now you have to get the new outlaw amp or a comparable to use the balanced outputs .. DVI SWITCHING >> Still in the air ..and most folks that worried about signal will be going direct to monitor from a video up center .. neat boxes that turn your low vcr etc signals to 1080 p or i so your new DLP doesnt look lousy trying to fill in the voids .. so back to the whats the diff.. a couple extra wires parralled to a balanced conn.. and a built in dve switch box .. and a software upgrade .. (maybe).. i ve heard good things about the newcastle .. which also means good for outlaw ...

Trav when I read your post what came to mind is: between the 990 & the 950, is it really worth the difference in price?
what makes the 990 so much better than the 950?

I've read a few user reports saying the 950 was not that great for music. Great for home theater, but not great for music. But the Sherwood has, and thus the 990 should have, much better audio processing for music.

I haven't heard either product myself. I'm using a Yamaha RX-V1400 for my pre/pro.

josh .. i also have heard that the 990 and 965 have a better 2 channel sound then the 950 ,,, probably improved dacs .. i am sure they are both great units .. how do you like your yamaha.. ?? i looked at the 2500 for my game room at one time .. nice features but my old yammies never had depth .. they had great mids highs and image but not throaty ,, maybe with a outboard amp you could accomplish this ..

The 990 has a more flexible bass management system in regards to selecting what crossover point you wish to use for the front, center and surrounds . The P965 is locked in at what appears to be 100hz but does offer + or - 10 db adjustment capability at that level . P965 also offers pure analog and digital output with selectable crossover freq's ranging from 40/60/80/100/120 for what appears to be the sub only . It would not surprise me if you could do a little more with the P965 bass system than what is stated in the specs .

The 950 sounds awesome with music thru the analog connections, even better in bypass mode. I guess to each his own, but i would never run a digital connection from an audio device to a preamp, and depend on the preamps dacs, a multi channel preamp's dacs are always going to be optimized for movie soundtrack info.

Ok, so after reading all of the discussions around the forum lately on universal remotes, I decided to feel my wife out on how she felt about getting one. I had absolutely no idea how unhappy she was with our current remote situation. It took her all of five seconds to say "Get one," after I told her I could program it to do everything with a button press or two. I just pulled the trigger on an open box MX-700 from bluedo.com. Here's hoping it'll be as good as I want it to be!

Travk13 I had a yamaha rxv-1000 before the 990 and only used it for the pre/pro using a Bryston 6b to push my paradigm monitor 9's in the front huge difference, that would give you the depth and throat you are looking for.

?? how much diff between using your yammie as a prepro vs the 990 .. not feature diff but Sound Quality ..

Another strange resemblance to the 990 - the Boston Acoustics AVR7120 receiver. I did a double take on the back panel image in the new HT magazine.

Have a look here and click on the back panel image link.

Notice the configuration is exactly the same as the 990, save two places: where the 990 has DVI = speaker posts and balanced outs = speaker posts.

This is a pretty popular (and apparently versatile) chassis design. Consider their $3K price for the spec and Outlaw's advantage is clear here.

Greg,

The back panel is exactly the same as the Sherwood Newcastle R-965 receiver. The CE audio industry is quite incestuous.

Judging by the manual for the Boston Acoustics receiver, it looks to be very nearly a straight re-badging of the R-965. Aside from the model name and the zone 2 remote (which is sporting a Boston logo), the manual looks just the same - indicating that the software is largely or completely unchanged. Sort of like the Atlantic Tech and Sherbourn processors that were so similar to the 950 (and even the Fosgate Audionics FAP-T1, which had a taller cabinet to support the front panel LCD monitor and the extra component input, but still used the 950 manual with very few changes). Yeah, there's a lot of interesting product development stories floating around in the background, many of which most of us never hear about.

Well, what are we to assume?

Given that the above comments are true, is the Outlaw 990, even if it is repackaged something or other, a great deal, a bad deal, or what?

Opinions?

Comments?

I thought it was hilarious when Home Theatre magazine was gushing eloquent over the "genius that is Jim Fosgate" (I paraphrase only slightly) because of "his" FAP-T1 - over a year after the 950 was released, and slightly less time after they themselves had reviewed the 950. When I wrote them to see if they had drawn the connection between the two units all I heard back was deafening silence.

Jeff Mackwood

you showed the reciever ver of the boston .. they have a prepro also that is very similar .. the ... reciever with no amps for 1000 less.. is their slogan.. atp 7 or something..

avp 7 to be exact ..1999. . retail...

so it seems yes they are all prob similar .. and the outlaw and sherwood are selling at about the same price yet outlaw has some perks over the sherwood .. and the boston is a little more $ bt has a special universal remote and ?? didnt get to deep into thier specs ... one plus on the sherwood is they are readily availible..

I think the 990 is a great deal - the fact that it is based on the Sherwood platform certainly doesn't hurt the 990 any, especially considering the generally high praise the P-965 has garnered over the last year or so. They took an already good product, added some nice features, cleaned up the software some, and offered it for less money. Seems pretty win-win to me.

travk13 - the BA uses an MX-500 remote, as does the Sherwood. Outlaw pulled it and substituted the less expensive Catalyst48, which presumably helped them come in with the lowest list price of the three in spite of the additional development work and the assorted extra hardware and software features.

i noticed ba was giving it their own model # and saying ir universal.. couldnt find a pick .. thanks for info gonk .. .. ba has never let me down quality wise .. if they used the same base thats just more good about this .. i agree gonk the 990 is a great deal .. i'm still curious of these ul's ..

Anyone looking at the BA is advised to look at their menus and those on the 990 to see the differences and attention to details from Outlaw that may not be present in other similar products.

jhunt1, I think you meant this thread.

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000146;p=1#000007

jhunt1, I think you meant this thread.

you are correct, sorry.

I'm a big Boston Acoustics fan, I'm sitting here surrounded by:
VR-MC - center
VR-M90s - fronts
VR-MXes - sides
VR-M60s - rear
(and another BA-VR system in another room)

And as much as I love the sound of their speakers, which sound fantastic with my 990/770 combo, I wouldn't pay extra just to get the BA logo on my components. Outlaw still has the best deals out there.

Jeff

I'm jealous! I love the Boston sound as well, but just can't afford to upgrade to the VR series yet. I'm currently using the System 9000 (with the Micro 90 series speakers) with an extra Micro90 for a rear sixth channel.

Owl's_Warder,

When I got my 990 I decided to move from the 6.1 setup I was using with my 950 to 7.1. I replaced my single rear VR-M/EX with my VR-M60s that I had been using as fronts in my second system. To replace these I just couldn't justify the money for the VR-M line, so I bought a pair of VR2s. I can hear a difference in the sound, but the VR tweeter is still there, and that is what I really like with the Bostons. They aren't nearly as attractive as the cherry VR-Ms, but the sound is still there. So keep that line in mind when you finally decide to go with the VR line, as they are significantly less expensive. But if you want to get good WAF, the cherry version of the VR-M line is hard to beat aesthetically. Good luck.

Jeff

I recently found this site that details the DACs, DSP, ADC, etc. for numerous preamps and receivers-- includes the Outlaw 950 and Sherwood P965.
URL=http://members.cox.net/alexhardware/IC_database1.htm]Unit Comparisons[/URL]

Might be revealing to compare the internal components of the various models being mentioned here with the new 990.

Let's try that URL link again:

Unit Comparisons

I'm a Polk guy myself, except for my center channel. I'm using a Boston Acoustics VR-12. It's older, but man is it crystal clear even at high volumes. It's good to 250watts, has 4 drivers and a tweeter. I like it so much I bought a second one off ebay for the "bedroom theater".

Cary