" I believe that components should be tranparent and any colorization should come from the recording engineer. "

B&W Loudspeakers lab in England, when testing speakers don't even use a pre-amp, amp only.

"Elecronic componentes will be audibly indistinguishable if they have:
1- Flat Frequency Response
2- Noise and Distortion levels below audible thresholds
3- High Input impedance and low output impedance"

In theory I beleive this to be correct, but in the real world, they do sound different. I remember when I first got into high end audio, and was choosing between a California Audio labs DX-2, and a less expensive Rotel CD player. There was a clear, and I mean clear difference between both units that my wife even heard. CAL Audio was the winner by the way.

Give me a Rotel 1066 and a Anthem Statement D1, and I will pick the Antem out everytime.. I know.. because I've done it.

I do not believe all equipment sounds the same unless it meets the criteria I stated. So if a preamp is designed to colorize the sound to seperate itself from the rest (like many high end ones do) then what I said does not stand (In addition it proves that many low cost pre-amps will measure and sound better than high end ones if better sound to you means transparency and letting the original recording through). But If it does meet the criteria I gave it will sound the same as long as the setup is identical. We are assuming the preamp does not have equalization errors, frequency response anomolies (must be flat) or overload problems. If we are talking about an amp it should have high input impedance, low output impedance, no frequency response anomolies, and be at all times operated within its voltage and current capabilities. Think about what I am saying it is nothing special. If two devices have flat frequency response (transparency and no colorization) and distortion less than human hearing they will sound the same. Does that not HAVE to be true? The only way to prove it is to measure the output frequency response or do a BLIND A/B test under controlled conditions. In addition, they must be set to the same dB to within .10, so you need a accurate instrument to validate this (just setting the volume wont do it). The reason is that what we percieve to be better sound is generally more power or volume and humans can differentiate very small changes in volume. So you buy a new amp, stick it in, set it to the same volume (manually) hey better sound. When in fact it was good power reserves.

As for CD players well that the same story as well. Digital audio equipment must meet the preamp qualifications I gave earlier (for analog) and be up to present day standards of D/A conversion to qualify for my statement. Maybe if you got a seriously cheap one with really bad analog circuits and you used the analog output you could hear a difference (due to distortion). And even then, if you used the digital out and used YOUR D/A converter of your pre-amp how can it sound different? Any player up to modern standards should sound the same. How can it not, it is digital information not sound.

Like I said, this is the measurable/engineering point of view. And I know it is not popular. But I feel if something measures the same it sounds the same and all decent modern electronics have such a low noise floor, and flat response that they can not be differentiated by our ears (unless the device was designed to sound different and NOT be transparent). Of course you still have to buy based on features, build quality and power (to avoid clipping and distortion). But in the end, if you want to have better sound, get a good amp with plenty of power (Outlaw makes a couple I can recommend..hehe),good pre-amp (again Outlaw, decent CD player, and spend the large chunk of your money on speakers. You will see that when you visit the exotic sound stores you can NOT hear what the salesperson claims to hear (the famous did you hear that?). I wonder why???

Pity.

BTW, I love these Audio Geek conversations! In addition, I love sharing opinions and thoughts with other people in the same hobby. So please dont think I am trying to convince anyone they are wrong in their thinking. Everyone has a right to think what they want, and if buying an exotic amp/preamp or cable makes you happy well thats what it this is all about; being happy with your hobby. Most people think I am crazy for considering a 2k amp versus a $200 receiver (my wife included)from Walmart. Thank goodness we have Forums where we can talk about these things. My wife would have fallen asleep by now!!

And it never once crossed your mind that it could be your hearing? Seriously, you can't think everybody hears on the same level. Just because some can't tell the difference between two red wines, does that mean nobody can?

Most definitely it can be my hearing. Most likely you or someone else can hear something I cant. I mean I am almost 35, a couple rock concerts here and there, clubs, etc, I am sure I cant hear even close to 20KhZ any more! But then again, I am sure none of us can hear better than an instrument can measure. But that is the Golden Ear theory, that some people can hear what can not be measured or that some things sound better and dont measure better. My opinion is if it measures good it sounds good, if it measures the same it sounds the same.

elikd - I like your style Even though I used to sound like you regarding straight engineering specs(I'm an engineer too)on audio equipment with age I have changed and have almost done a 180 and believe people can hear minute differences in electronics. Can my 48 yr old ears hear a difference? Sometimes yes, a lot of times no.

The best example I can give for myself is with the 950 DACs compared with my Perpertual Technolgies P-3A DAC. When level matched the difference is quite stunning, even my wife can hear the difference and she doesn't have a clue what a DAC is. It should all just be 1 and 0's right? Let's just say it was an ear opening and mind expanding experience.

I'm even become convinced there are people with equipment revealing enough to hear differences in cabling. Can I personally hear it? I doubt it but I believe it is possible and even likely someone else can.

Thanks for the discussion guys and all you opinions. It was a good conversation. Time for me to jump to another topic.