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#53040 - 05/09/05 09:27 AM The good, the bad, and the worthless
tbng Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 23
Loc: Red Lion PA USA
At last the user manual is posted, and we can get answers to our long-awaited questions, although some questions had been answered before this.

THE GOOD
1. All the available surround processing technology is there, every last mother's son of Dolby point-whatever.
2. Trust me, you won't tell any difference between the Outlaw 990 and a Lexicon, Meridian, Rotel, Bryston, etc. operating in the same mode with the same settings.
3. DVI is here! Although HDMI may take over in the industry, an adaptor will get you up to speed video-wise.
4. The 990 is a great value for movie watching.
5. It allows for expansion to 7.1 SACD when that day arrives, and it probably soon will.
6. Unlike the 950, speaker setup allows for separate parameters for surrounds and rears.
7. The 990 is a clear step up from the 950.

THE BAD
1. All the bad press here on DSP, I’m sorry to say, led Outlaw to cut corners on this vital aspect just as it did on the 950. No, I'm not talking about simulated "hall" modes, but I want the ability to adjust delay and high frequency contouring on the surrounds and back channels to get the best from two-channel, acoustically recorded sources. Surrounds in this case must NOT be full range, and adjusting delay and high frequency rolloff simulates hall size by utilizing the recording’s out-of-phase information. T’aint possible with the 990 any more than it was with the 950, blast it! Dolby IIx is great as far as it goes but fails on this aspect, too.
2. Related to 1 above, the 990’s tone controls appear to be the old-fashioned kind, not digital. A tone control bypass button on a digital processor is like putting a starter crank on a BMW.
3. It's big. In my case, that's no problem, but it might be for others.
4. The USB port is on the @#$(&^*@! back of the unit!
5. Distance parameters for speakers are still in 1 db increments. Precise channel balance is very important, and 1 db won’t quite cut it.
6. Room EQ is noticeable by its absence. Outlaw should, and probably will, rectify that omission.
7. Only two DVI inputs is a little sparse, adequate this year but probably not next.
8. Didn’t the 950’s remote have macro capability, or am I thinking of another product? I didn’t see it in the 990’s user manual.

THE WORTHLESS
1. Balanced outputs is a surprising inclusion at this price level, especially because they rarely, if ever, offer any audible improvement in a home environment. Unnecessary increase in the cost.
2. AM-FM tuner. In this age of satellite radio (and digital broadcasts as soon as music producers get over their paranoia), why bother? FM barely qualifies as a high-fidelity medium thanks to the broadcasting restraints forced upon it. Unnecessary increase in the cost.
3. Phono input. The ever-decreasing number of record lovers likely already have a separate phono preamp, and the 990 can't handle moving coil cartridges anyway. It's like putting a rumble seat in a Jaguar, i.e., another unnecessary increase in cost.
4. I can't tell from the user manual (and couldn't with the 950 either until I played with it), but that level trim control looks suspiciously unchanged. The circuit was pointless on the 950 because it did not add or detract from any channel's level but permanently changed original settings. Looks like more of the same, but, as Bill O’Reilly says, “I could be wrong.”

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#53041 - 05/09/05 02:00 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
bobby c Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 42
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
Quote:
Originally posted by tbng:

THE WORTHLESS
2. AM-FM tuner. In this age of satellite radio (and digital broadcasts as soon as music producers get over their paranoia), why bother? FM barely qualifies as a high-fidelity medium thanks to the broadcasting restraints forced upon it. Unnecessary increase in the cost.
3. Phono input. The ever-decreasing number of record lovers likely already have a separate phono preamp, and the 990 can't handle moving coil cartridges anyway. It's like putting a rumble seat in a Jaguar, i.e., another unnecessary increase in cost.
Well for me, these two are not anywhere near worthless. Certainly FM as high fidelity is suspect, but there are times when I'll be working (my workshop is near my HT and will be in a seperate zone) and I want to listen to a ballgame (go Nats!) or listen to an NPR show. Having the tuner is perfect for this. A tuner in my setup (going back to the 1970's) never replaced vinyl or CDs, but was an alternative for non-critical listening means.

As for the phono input - I have a high end phono pre-amp on my 2 channel system - love it. Having access to my vinyl w/out another device in my HT is a bonus - it certainly adds worth in my case.

Of course YMMV

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#53042 - 05/09/05 02:24 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
Jed M Offline
Desperado

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 526
Loc: Home on the range
The Good
Quote:
1. All the available surround processing technology is there, every last mother's son of Dolby point-whatever.
I am looking forward to trying out Dolby Headphones on my Senn HD-600's.
Quote:
2. Trust me, you won't tell any difference between the Outlaw 990 and a Lexicon, Meridian, Rotel, Bryston, etc. operating in the same mode with the same settings.
Doesn't this somewhat contradict this statement?
Quote:
7. The 990 is a clear step up from the 950.
In any case, I believe it will be a step up. So I agree with 7, but disagree with 2. smile

The Bad
Quote:
3. It's big. In my case, that's no problem, but it might be for others.
This is my number one concern but I ordered and hopefully I can make it work.
Quote:
4. The USB port is on the @#$(&^*@! back of the unit!
I agree, this is strange. Kind of like when you go through a gated area and the guard house is on the passenger side.

The Worthless
Quote:
3. Phono input. The ever-decreasing number of record lovers likely already have a separate phono preamp, and the 990 can't handle moving coil cartridges anyway. It's like putting a rumble seat in a Jaguar, i.e., another unnecessary increase in cost.
I don't think a phono input is worthless. Maybe you won't use it, but I would imagine there is a good percentage that will. Also, unlike balanced inputs, I don't think a phono input added much to the cost.

Quote:
as Bill O’Reilly says, “I could be wrong.”
And he usually is. laugh

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#53043 - 05/09/05 02:38 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
Iggy The Dog Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/28/01
Posts: 101
Loc: The Dog House
Bill "Can't tell a loofa from a falafel" O'Reilly may be "right" but he is usually wrong!

But that aside, a Phono Input is now almost more important than before, since one of the "Iggletts" discovered all those "big round black things in the back closet with cool music on them".

A tuner? There are some great programs from NPR and APR that are worth listenging to on a quality system. Put politics aside and listen to "This American Life" and totally immerse yourself in the story thanks to great music in the background.

As to all the stuff in your #1, and the other product at this price that has those features is? Isn't the proper balance of sonic performance and features what it's all about here? I'll give those fine tuning adjustments up for a more affordable price.

USB jack on the back? Two words come to mind: EXETENSION CABLE. Get over it. Besides, you are complaining about a tuner yet think that the USB jack will get use?

At the end of the day, I think that you have mis-cast "Things I (you) don't like and/or need" as "Bad". They ain't bad, they are just stuff that on the one hand you say "take out and save money because I don't use it" then on the other hand say "gee, even though putting something in that I (you) want but others don't need or even understand at all is OK, even if it raises the price for everyone else so that I have what I (you) want".

Hmmm. THe trurth will come when enough people get their hands (ears) on these things and tell us how they SOUND. THAT is the true measure of good or bad, as opposed to "glad it has this" and "too bad it doesn't have this".
_________________________
But what do I know, I'm ONLY a dog!

ARF, ARF says Iggy

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#53044 - 05/09/05 02:50 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
bobby c Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 42
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
Quote:
Originally posted by Iggy The Dog:
But that aside, a Phono Input is now almost more important than before, since one of the "Iggletts" discovered all those "big round black things in the back closet with cool music on them".
Great to hear - young ones need to appreciate the black gold from a different era.

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#53045 - 05/09/05 02:54 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
Iggy The Dog Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/28/01
Posts: 101
Loc: The Dog House
It will be interesting to get a take on what the "young 'uns" think of what WE thought was great music in --- uhhh --- well, let's just say "some number of years ago". Now I have to find a decent turntable without digging too far into the budget for kibble.
_________________________
But what do I know, I'm ONLY a dog!

ARF, ARF says Iggy

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#53046 - 05/09/05 03:40 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
Owl's_Warder Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Grants Pass, OR
I would suggest that having the USB on the back seems like a very logical choice. It seems to me that it will really only ever get used in two instances:

1. To upgrade in the future. How often is this likely to be done? My money is on "not very" so once in a great while getting to the back of the unit shouldn't be a big deal for a cleaner front.

2. As an audio slave device to a PC. If you're using it in this fashion, most likely you'll have a permanent connection hooked up to that USB port. Do you really want a USB cable forever hanging off the front of your unit? I wouldn't.

If there is some other application I'm overlooking that would require you frequently plug in and remove a cable which would demand front panel access, please share. I can't think of any but would be curious to learn about something new. But as Iggy points out, USB extension cables are cheap and easy to come by. Run one around the side of your unit and now you have front access.

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#53047 - 05/09/05 04:25 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
NRBQLou Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 122
Loc: Denver, CO USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Iggy The Dog:
It will be interesting to get a take on what the "young 'uns" think of what WE thought was great music in --- uhhh --- well, let's just say "some number of years ago". Now I have to find a decent turntable without digging too far into the budget for kibble.
I'm hesitant to recommend another online retailer in this forum (is there a rule against this?) but you can find a bunch of worthwhile turntables in the 300-1000 dollar range (they also have some that are far more expensive, great big rube goldberg-esque looking contraptions) at www.amusicdirect.com - kind of a high-end tweak-happy site but some pretty good deals overall - they also carry just about every available dvd-a, sacd, hdcd, heavyweight vinyl, etc. that you can think of...
_________________________
Integra DRX 3.1, Outlaw 5000
Fronts - Golden Ear Triton 2, Center - Martin Logan Motion 8, Surround L/R - Energy Audissey A5+2,
Sony XBR65X850E
Oppo BDP-83, Sony UBP-X800
Roku Streaming Stick +
Music Hall mm5.1 table, Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge, Cambridge Audio 640P Phono Preamp, Pro-Ject Speed Box
Belkin Pure AV Power Conditioner
Audioquest Type 8 speaker cable, Monoprice speaker Cable
Mostly Monoprice interconnects

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#53048 - 05/09/05 04:30 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
Iggy The Dog Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 02/28/01
Posts: 101
Loc: The Dog House
Lou:

Thanks, we'll take a walk over there, though I think I've seen their catalogs around the dog house somewhere. Ah, if they only didn't put that old Thorens in the last garage sale! Such is a dog's life!
_________________________
But what do I know, I'm ONLY a dog!

ARF, ARF says Iggy

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#53049 - 05/09/05 07:26 PM Re: The good, the bad, and the worthless
tbng Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 23
Loc: Red Lion PA USA
7. The 990 is a clear step up from the 950>

Allow me to rephrase: The 990 is a clear step up in functionality and connection flexibility from the 950. Will Dolby II sound different on the two units? Not unless the circuit has been changed on the 990.

To those of you who really, really want a tuner in the 990, I suggest a cheap boom box for baseball games given that audio quality in sports broadcasts is about as bad as it gets. For slightly more serious listening, unless you have some extreme reception problems (like having a 50,000 watt transmitter in your back yard) almost any tuner will do. Even with a quality tuner, the most critical issue is the antenna anyway. The 990 is a surround processor, not a receiver.

As to a phono circuit, it is going the way of the computer floppy drive, and there are a whole lot more floppy disks out there than records. Its inclusion increases the cost of the unit, but its absence does not prevent anyone from playing records with a dedicated phono preamp. I note that no one referenced moving coil cartridges. The 990's inability to handle those further reduces its usefulness even for record lovers.

<>

The 990 is marketed as a surround processor offering maximum performance and flexibility for minimum dollars. When you add features that have nothing to do with the functionality of a surround processor, you've increased its cost but not added to its fundamental functionality. Additional DSP processing IS one reason to have a surround processor and, unlike tuners and phono circuts, cannot be replaced if it wasn't put into the product. The 990 might cost $150 - $200 less if those features had been omitted or boast additional surround functionality for the same $1095. In either case, the 990 would be closer to Outlaw's stated marketing philosophy.

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