Due to a force of ‘have to stop and deal with’ hitting the 30th day on STB return, I went ahead and put in my request for a tech to evaluate my Sony 60” LCD, which I have some issues with. I requested a tech with the ability to deal with service modes and capable of evaluating test pattern results wished to check my LCD 3-screen alignment (we did not even get to that).

What I got today was a guy, who sat down flipped to OSD, shoved my brightness level to 100%, and asked me if I had tried that yet!. Then he jumped into contrast and ran it up to 100%. And asked me if I ever tried watched the display using ‘vivid’ mode….(the professional reviewer documented worst, - factory pic mode option available…and I agree) because most people think that looks the best.
(What if this joker left my new RP CRT set up in this manner!!)

When I explained that I KNEW user controls could not affect the issue I was having (lack of detail and contrast in darker scenes) he replied:

1)Its probably your DVD player its plays darker than satellite.
2)And there’s really not much you can do in a service menu, its has very little control. Most of your controls are in the user menu’s.

He then casually commented that he’d never been to ‘school’ on this set. And he would call Sony and see if they could give him a list of things that might help in the service menu on Monday, although he doubted it if it couldn’t be fixed using ‘user controls’. And said ‘I’ll be back”.

I had grand central going on and no time for this. How do I politely call the store and tell them ….this guy is not coming back and touching my service menu with a 10-ft pole.

I sure he’s very handy for helping HO’s who get their screen on the wrong video feed.

That sucks. I hope it works out for you. I am sure you remember I was getting the 65" Toshiba. It is awesome. The line doubler is great and so are the stretch modes, and I couldn't be happier with the way it looks.

------------------
Stott

Lena:

Have you tried turning the brightness and contrast all the way up on your DVD player????

Sounds like a hardware reset problem. I think that the "service" technician that came out to evaluate your Sony, Lena, needs to be rebooted (out the door).

Paul

Lena,
Don't bother being polite.
Tell them that the tech is a moron, and if you need your toaster fixed you MIGHT be willing to have him help.
They're making the assumption that you're just a dumb J6P consumer who can be conned into believing what there tech "expert" says.
It's your thousands of dollars spent. Make sure you get your moneys worth.
Trace

All good advice:
(out the door)...Make sure you get your moneys worth....Have you tried turning the brightness and contrast all the way up on your DVD player????

Had not thought of that last one! Although I did try shining my flashlight into the darker portions of scenes to see if I could ‘see’ more detail. To no avail ……

Seriously…. since all the manufactories are now including burn-in disclaimers in owner’s manuals, can you imagine if I had ‘let’ this guy optimally tweak and ‘service’ if it had been a CRT or plasma, (not knowing any better). And how could you ‘prove’ that the last service tech left your (user accessible) settings at that danger level when the next service tech who evaluates your burn-in states…"Oh boy, -you should not have had ‘those’ settings boosted."

No…I don’t like disparaging people to their employers and somehow I’m going to have to ‘stop’ this tech (or any equivalent) from being sent out. If I think of the next customer who might get him …maybe it will make the chore more palatable.

I sense that when time allows since I’ve had to ‘help’ my HD installer install my satellite upgrade, and go back and reroute interconnects he installed backwards etc…. and my in-laws troubleshoot their installation which Dish left at ‘cant’ acquire…..bad box…(incorrect it was an LNB incompatibility issue which I had to research to discover) .that maybe this is a new trend in my life and its time to order the Service Manual, and study hard/carefully and learn to do this myself. It's a time issue for me at the moment, (as I feel it takes a dedicated amount of preparation to qualify myself to that task). All I wanted was a little ‘stop gap’ tweaking to get me through till then, and some confirmation that my screens ‘factory locked’ alignment is in spec.

I have definitely entered the zone of ‘she knows only enough to be dangerous’ but its very upsetting when I catch some of these guys flat out lying which is what Dish installers who screwed up my in-laws work order did yesterday., and my own installer who said he did not ‘bypass’ my panamax on the Sat coax, (he did) I found it 2 days ago when removing the new STB to return it. I’m beginning to think I don’t want any of the ‘professionals’ in my house. Some times it almost hurts to have a little bit of knowledge before I was just ‘blissfully’ unaware.

Question to any who have dealt with service tech's on displays. Is it even possible to get a tech through POP trained to tweak in service mode??? Or is this asking too much of any Brick & Mortar??? I should abandon the effort entirely and research a professional calibrator? Are professional for hire calibrators certified in a manner which will not bust the warrenty?
PS: Stott its GREAT to hear your Toshiba is in....enjoy!

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited January 11, 2003).]

"No…I don’t like disparaging people to their employers............."

Lena,
That's the problem with being a nice upstanding citizen.
I've been in retail for 25 years and I can tell you for certain that a good employee would never take it personally and a smart business owner will greatly appreciate your candor.
I've lost customers because they didn't want to offend anybody. They just took there business elsewhere while I was stuck with an employee who was driving yet more people away.
I don't mean to sound preachy but I thought you'd like to see the view from the other side.
Trace

Lena:

Get an Imaging Sciences Foundation (I.S.F) certified tech to look at your set. They are trained - won't guarantee you'll not get a clunker, but at least they have been 'exposed' to the proper way to calibrate a set.

and a smart business owner will greatly appreciate your candor.

You are correct and thank you for the reminder to help sooth the ‘discomfort’ I feel in these situations that this is really for consumers and retailers best interests.
I’m noticing a tendency in myself the last years in certain areas to not argue or even ‘let on’ when I feel I am in possession of information to the contrary in any male dominated areas of interaction.
I just nod, smile…. Leave…. And never go back, (call back) whatever. (Although I was so mad at Dish, I let the install department know that I knew they lied about a part which they stated (they would have HAD to charge me bo-coos more) and needed to install IF they had correctly routed the upgrade per my request. What HE did not know - his ace-up-the-sleeve basis for: “We’re sorry about the screw up but it was ‘for the best’, as it greatly reduces your costs if we had gone that other route”. Was that (I) knew more than he bargained on and he was rendered speechless when I told him I knew the part detailed was already installed on the original system therefore meaning they could not have ‘charged’ us for installing it if they had routed the upgrade correctly.

What I seem to be running into are business’s who ‘HATE’ an informed consumer.
My retail spot wanted me to trade my STB for another model (that the salesman guaranteed had no issues) and were discombodgeulated when I explained (while two other customers shopping in the department within earshot) the alternative was the same exact platform with a different badge and had the same issues. Then he switched to the last viable alternative and said "Well I own a version of this and its ‘great’!" Until I asked don’t you have an issue with OTA acquisition on that model? And he hurried me back to the counter for my refund, saying, “Well, if you just delete all your OTA selections off your channel list and don't use them..…it won’t freeze up any more".

Thanks guys and Soundhound I’ll look up I.S.F.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited January 11, 2003).]

Whoa,
Spunky Little Lena!!
Now that's the kind of consumer I like to hear.
Go get'em.

SoundHound,
How much (ballpark) does an ISF visit cost?
Trace

Don't know for sure - I've heard the neighborhood of a couple hundred for a CRT set, but I would check it out, as I could be totally, completely, and utterly wrong.

Lena,

Technically any service level tweaks could void your warranty but....I think it is worth it although not cheap! Figure $450 for 1 input and about $150 more per input. The one person that I know of and was impressed with his work is Greg Lowwen(sp?). He does a lot of work compared to some. He is on HTF quite a bit you can look there or on his site . He does quite a few tours around the country and am sure he will be in your area soon, or could recommend someone. You could also look on ISF for more info.



Edit amn typo's
------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's



[This message has been edited by m-mmeyer (edited January 11, 2003).]

How much do you think they would charge to calibrate my Sony "Watchman"

SH, I thought calibrating those involed buying another!

Lena, Here is a guy in Texas. He seem to be cheaper. Can't vouch for him though.




------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Technically any service level tweaks could void your warranty.

M-mmeyer: That’s the part that gets my goat. You should be able to ‘hire’ certified service for this, which would not.
The last GW One, I owned ….my tweaks in Avia did all I needed to get it where I wanted it to be.
This GW Two, I tweaked one night about 2am wk after Christmas, and never even finished. I should go back and run through when not so tired. (the service ‘tech’ (so called) appt was set up because I’m getting lazy about acquiring new skills (due to lack of time). But I remember thinking Avia tweaks appeared not as effective on the II as it was with the GW I, and deciding that it prob. needed more in-depth work in Service. Over on AVS a tweak PDF was posted and listed by users as noticeable improvement. But if I’m going to go there, (Service M, -myself) it is going to take prep/study time.

Thought I’d take the fast track till I had time to play. Also had a idea that if I watched/questioned a ‘professional’, I could glean quite a bit useful for future reference.

Thanks for the links, - I had looked up the calabrationist schedules before, none seemed to rotate to this area in the last months.
SH: Greg's name I had noted in the past….(as highly regarded), but last I checked he was never working this area, will start watching….(or cave in and start learning TDIMS).

Re: Edit amm posts.
I need to slow down typing, learn to spell (spell ck can't even figure me out) and double-ck my train of thought shorthand speech patterns!. Surprised you can read me at times!


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited January 12, 2003).]

SLL,

Just wanted to toss my two cents in for Mr Loewen. I'll be arranging a calibration session with him sometime in the next 2 months or so (read: after the Christmas bills are paid off ). I've met him and I've met several folks who've had him work on their systems. All comments and opinions have been very favorible.

As for self-tweaking, I did, what I think was, a fair job via the user menu and Avia on my new Mitsu 65" before Christmas. Will probably go back in and re-do it myself soon ... getting close to 50 hours.

------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

[This message has been edited by psklenar (edited January 13, 2003).]

Hi there Lena. I was just reading about all the problems that you've been running into and can understand your frustration in getting the help and information that you need to correct your TV's problems. I was lucky enough to have purchased a monitor that has it's own cult-like nitch on the web and has quite a bit of technical referencing and user-to-user support. The real reason for this was that the KL-W9000 is intended to be a Commercial presentation display not a Home Theater monitor therefore none of this displays settings were held to the standards of normal consumer video display devices and I was forced into the service mode fray without any prior instruction or manual to guide me, other than a few simple navigation rules to follow. I also feel that your particular problem hits unusually close to home due to the fact that my Sony KL-W9000 50-inch LCD display is in escense the direct predecessor to your Grand Wega set. I do understand that Sony has added many specific options and features to your model that were not available to mine, but their basic architectures for displaying images are essentially identical.

I have owned my monitor for about 4 1/2 years now and in that time I have learned quite a bit about not just my set, but also how vital service mode calibration can be. Seeing what you have written here and what I have learned about you in past discussions, I know that you aren't the type that likes to blindly dive in headfirst and navigate through your sets service mode without proper instructions. I waited 4 years to order my service manual, and attribute my success to both my hardheaded determination and blind luck. However if you are willing to experiment with this mode whether you have a service manual or not, you will need to make a record of every setting that currently exists and in doing this you will create a map of these settings to guide you through this mode. The benefit of having the Sony Service Manual for your TV is that it has basic definitions for the cryptic service mode codes that you will see and should give you enough information for you to make proper changes to your set.

Now if you are looking into ISF certified calibration, more power to you! I know of many fellow KL-W9000 owners who have benefited from having an ISF technician set up their monitors, and see no reason why you shouldn't take this route, as long as you are willing to pay for it. I am sure you will probably receive the most relief by having an experienced technician certify your set as well.

Now just out of curiosity, and if you don't mind Lena, would you mind explaining your problem to me in a bit more detail. I'd like to see if maybe your problem is anything that I may have run across in the past or could go through my service manual to see if there are any settings that might help you. I read that you feel that there is some type of alignment issue with your LCD panels? Are you getting separation in your colors i.e. red, green, or blue banding or "rainbowing" on the edges of images? Is your image blurry? Has the picture fidelity diminished recently, or did picture quality suddenly decrease? If you do decide to turn to an ISF technician for help, I would be very interested in his findings on this issue as well.

I hope that you don't find my statements here too nosey, I am just an avid tweaker and am interested in solving problems or at least seeing them get solved.

Thanks for your time.

-Jeremy

Hi Jeremy, just saw this…was a little distracted by computer antics today! (and I’ve behind on many things at the moment).

“how vital service mode calibration” yes I can see myself getting into this eventuly …curisioty killed the cat …so to speak…but I will be careful study hard, (buy a manual) and the cardnial rule..WRITE DOWN SETTINGS…I’m debating with myself do…I want to wait till the display is older (due to warrenty issues) before I ‘play’ and use a professional in the meantime. (and watch and learn more)…I do not even have the test pattrens down in the self help discs.

Regarding alignment…I don’t really think so..but wondered and wanted it verified correct. I’m seeing a ‘soft focus’ effect sometimes on a large med shot closeup of a face, …a few oddball moments like that, I’ve wondered if the decoder is inferior in the Sony II (or if all critical parts are the same…do I have a malfuntioning something?)

I tweaked (a little) again and by just setting the proper retrace on the set for the RCA RGB to component converter cleaned up the pic to a degree, right now its running closer to the GWI. (I am not as disatisifed as I was). However its intreasting to me that I never discovered the retrace should be reset on the Sony I and its pic was better without that adjustment being applied.

No banding or color sep. or rainbow, much more of a ‘fussy focas’ on occasion, (I do not recall with GWI) and my largest grip…not my imagination, is Sony touted “Contrast improved 25%” on the GWII. Which between that sales pitch and 1K drop in price caused a lot to jump on the bandwagon.. I’ve had the rare opportunity of a lot of hours on both units to compare and I lost some things with the two version.

Either Sony screwed something up in true contrast and detail in dark scences (net affect - a great loss of detail in dark portions), or somethings not up to par with this unit. The two units match capiblites on a bright DVD like “Ice Age”.
(of course the tech who came that day thought my pic was ‘great’)
I have to say…even with the II’s unfavorable preformance as compared to my I. I would buy it again over other choices currently on the market.

But it SHOULD be as good as the I in detail in dark scenes and it is not.

For example a scene where a man is hiding/coming out of the shadows in the corner of a room, I would have seen the hint of checkbone, the line of his jacket lapel even though one side is flimed in deep shadow, with the (II) what I see is just the outline of the face. The checkbone contour has faded into black. So it appears with I lost something in black level, even though Sony advertises the better contrast.

M-memeyer: Thanks for link to Texas! If I break down and order looks like it will have to be him. Greg L (who I’d like to use) does not appear to ever make it this far South into my metroplex. (I think he must be one of those (shudder)‘Yankee's’ )

(...forgive the typo's, It tells me 'spell ck completed'...don't think so! But I've argued with the comp. today to much..we are both tired)

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited January 23, 2003).]

I really feel for you Lena. I know just how frustrating it is to get something and sit there looking at it, just knowing in the pit of my stomach that something wasn't quite right. I think that due to the newness of your current Grand Wega it probably would be best to go ahead and check with Sony to see if ISF certification on your TV would in any way jepordize your warranty. I personally don't think they should have a problem with it since you are only trying to get the best from their product, but then again big companies can get big ego's. If I lived anywhere near Dallas I would gladly come over and peruse through your TV's service mode to see if there are any setting that I am farmillar with on your set.

Here is a list of trained ISF dealers with calibration equiptment in Texas, on the ISF site.

http://www.imagingscience.com/isf_search.cfm

I know that technicians of this sort can be quite pricey and again wish that there was any other way that I could help you out, but I am sure that if anyone can get to the source of your dilema, it would be one of these people. I don't know where in Dallas it is that you live but one place on that ISF list stood out to me and after researching a bit more feel that he seems to be a pretty straight forward guy with a desire to do his best to get the best from your TV. His company is called Custom HDTV Calibration, and his name is Larry Proud based in Mesquite (a suburb of Dallas?). Larry also has a web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/lproud/1mywork.html

If you go to his site, he has price list's, his background and the reason he started his business in the first place listed, which was what caught my attention. I would normally not recommend someone I wasn't farmillar with, and you may want someone else, but at least it's a start. I have also emailed him concerning your problem and hope to hear back from him in the next day or two.

I truely hope that you are able to get your GW up and running to your satisfaction soon, and hope you have a great day, Lena!

-Jeremy

Jeremy,

You might appreicate these:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...89&pagenumber=1
If the link works, these are pics of the internals of the GWII, someone posted who had a tech in with the top off. Haven't had time to look at them all, but they appear informative.

Lena, what's the video chain in your system like (source->???->display)

Do you have a 0IRE/7.5IRE setting on your DVD player? Have you used the Avia disk's pluge pattern to set the brightness level(s)?

Cary

Cary
Have the DTC100 straight in via a chintzy RCA RGB to Component converter, after I returned my demo run of a Sony HD200, which for a short time allowed us to us the DVI straight in.
The DVD is straight in via Component.

Do you have a 0IRE/7.5IRE setting on your DVD player unaware of what that setting is? Will look, do not recall seeing a parameter titled so: (Panasonic RP-91) will have to dig and see.

I have been known to type either one in a hurry but what I own is V Essentials, have run the full adjust using it in the past on the GW I) and a partial run-through at Christmas on the GW II, which I have never gotten back to. From Nov forward I have a schedule which makes getting to any of this, - hit or miss right now. When I started messing with the GW II felt quickly there were certain things ‘off’ as compared to the GW I which I don’t think any home disc adjustments are going to alleviate.

What I’d like to find …before I sit down and run through VE again, is a web site explaining all test patterns, (many don’t even have explanation on my disc, several test patterns listed as additional patterns for a service tech. use). I queried asking for a better explanation of all test patterns on Avia and VE what the goals are for each pattern with samples showing correct/incorrect, and what is occurring to cause the differences.
Including hopefully information regarding if the pattern is off (when applied) where does the problem lie, in color in decoder in alignment etc. I would rather know when its off WHY its off…not just that it is.

No one replied on the other forum with a web resource for researching (self-training) on this subject.

Hey Lena,

Just looked around the net and found a site you might want to take a look at. Hope it can help you out!

-Jeremy

http://members.accessus.net/~090/awh/how2adj.html

Thanks!. Quick glance shows above posted IRE explained, - I Think the panny does have a setting (labeled something else I believe which might be that) I’ll check on this, - I have not adjusted (the panny settings and should see if any menu there affects) since the II came in. And I notice a Video E link off your link (should of thought of that) which hopefully might answer under FAQ, some inquiries I have on test patterns.

Funny I had dropped dealing with the LCD due to lack of time for a awhile and got a call from the service center yesterday. (After that last visit tech support never called back and I never followed up having lost all confidence in that route). It was a funny conversation we had, with me trying to politely explain if they did not have a service rep near the ability level of a certified callabrationist, I was wasting their time. (in others words trying to tell them don’t come back just to push brightness level up to 100% again). Or at least a ST capable of talking to vendor support at Sony for some tweaks in SMode which could possibly alleviate the problems. She will research and call back,,,

I think that the feature labeled "video black level expansion" on your Panasonic RP-91 is that DVD players IRE control. I also found yet another link to a site that may help you better understand the test patterns and show both passing signals and failing signals.

-Jeremy

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10...out-1-2003.html

Thank you Jeremy!