Some of you followed the thread where I gave notice on this board that I was selling a 750
through an eBay listing. An outlaw saw the
notice and ended up making the purchase.

Since then he and I have gone through UPS hell. I shipped him the 750 unopened in the
factory shipping container. I sent it via
Mailboxes Etc. acting as an agent for UPS.

I insured it and sent it via air $125.00

UPS apparently mishandled (read dropped) the
box and more or less scattered the guts of the 750. Now, if you have ever seen how
the OUTLAWS pack these babies you'd know that
they are intended to take a lot of abuse. In fact, the outside of the box showed little or no damage.

The recipient opened the box and immediately noticed that the 750 had been seriously damaged, to the extent that the input jacks had been pulled loose of the rear panel. This was just the immediately apparent damage. Wisely, he chose not to plug it in and risk damage due to shorts, etc. He immediately filed a claim with UPS. They picked it up and immediately denied the claim based on the following:

1. The exterior carton was not badly damaged
2. The carton was not "approved" by UPS as
sufficient packaging.

They are judge and jury on their claims. No recourse is available. I maintain that it is
their business plan to reject any and all claims. Insurance is simply incremental revenue if you reject all claims.

Since UPS ships for the OUTLAW's all the time in the same packaging, it is absurd
to say that the packaging somehow is not
approved. Further, the fact that the packaging withstood their abuse is hardly
evidence that the contents could not be
damaged by dropping the box.

After a series of claims, rejections, and
appeals, Mailboxes Etc. sent the unit to
the OUTLAW's without my knowledge or consent.
Mailboxes ETC. has separate insurance from
UPS. They refuse to consider replacing the
unit. So far I figure I am out at least $500
assuming I someday get the amp back in a more or less repaired condition.

Even though the amp is now at best a
repaired device with questionable future reliability, they take no responsibility.
Further, they did not treat me like a customer, and treated the process as clearly
adversarial.

The OUTLAWs stepped in today and started using their leverage with UPS. It is unclear
if that will have any impact, but it is the
first time in my 55 years that a manufacturer
has ever gone this extra mile to this extent
for me. I am hugely impressed!!!!

Here is the advice portion of the posting

Never send something via UPS unless you can
afford to lose most or all its value without
undue heartburn.

Understand that insurance is interpreted by
UPS and there is no appealing their findings. Insurance does not mean replacement
even if you insure for the full value of the item.

Deal direct with the shipper and don't use
third party shippers like Mailboxes Etc.
However well intentioned, they just cloud the
issues. It only leads to circular finger pointing with ultimately you holding the bag.
Further, they charge a big surcharge for handling the box and add no real value.

USE FEDEX! I have had stellar luck with them
in every way. You pay a small premium which is clearly worth it.

Double box everything you send. .. if it is even a little bit fragile. This won't help with collecting the insurance, but will serve to prevent your needing it.

I am telling everyone I know to avoid both UPS and Mailboxes etc. They have apparently dealt in complete bad faith with me. I have no reason to doubt that the same could happen to you.

I have dedicated the next 6 months to mounting an internet campaign of apocolyptic
dimensions. I will be telling everyone I
can touch about UPS and the way I have been
treated.

There is a major difference between an Outlaw and a criminal.

Eddyboy

Let me start by saying UPS and Mailboxes Etc. could take a lesson or two from the Outlaws on customer service. My guess, if they spent 5 minutes in the same room with Mike, Scott and the rest of the Outlaw gang they would at least learn to smile when a customer walks through the door with a problem.

As Eddyboy (now known to me as "friend") has stated, the 750 was shipped in it's original box. The box was in faily good condition upon receipt. Well, that where the good news ends. Upon opening the package I noticed the amp sections with the heat sinks wiggling and thought that seemed odd that they weren't better supported, but I didn't think too much of it at the time. As I inspected the outside appearance of the unit I noticed a bad gash on the bottom of the unit. I checked the box and found a hole at the same spot the gash was. It appeared that something metalic had gone through the box and scraped the bottom.

No big deal I thought because it was not noticeable from the front or sides. Well, while inspecting this gash I noticed little pieces of white plastic in the bottom I could see through the vent holes. At this point I was suspecting internal damage, so I removed the cover and found why the amp sections were wiggling around. This unit had taken one hell of a smack on it's side. Enough so that it had ripped not one or two, but all five of the amp sections from the input jacks. Subsequent rough handling finished off these inputs.

Mailboxes Etc. has shipped the unit to be repaired at Outlaw's manufacturer and I have no doubt that they will do a fine job, but the fact of the matter is, Ed is stuck with a repaired unit (which I still intend to buy), he's out his original purchase price and frieght he paid (less what I'll be paying him), he's out the $150.00 he paid to get it shipped (2nd day air in hopes it would get to me safely) and not to mention the aggravation the shippers (if you can call them that) have caused him.

This is just not right. Not right at all. The unit was shipped in it's original container (UPS sees these from Outlaw all the time), it's marked with arrows and this end up (the unit was obviously dropped on it's side), fragile (had to of been dropped some distance to do that damage)and is obviously heavy to indicate mass to be treated with respect. But NO, we had to throw it from the plane as we flew over Austin.

Anyway. I'm with Ed on this one. If you want it to get there in one piece, you're best to find any other option to using UPS and Mailboxes Etc. And I guess the Insurance is only as good as the paper it is written on.

Outlaws forever. UPS/Mailboxes never again.

Bill in Texas

I would try to take them to small claims court. From what I understand the "little guy" usually wins in these type of cases. There is a good chance they won't even show. Just make sure you have all of your documentation and bring pictures. There's got to be a lawyer in this crowd, right?
Fletch

Sounds like you're not alone:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/delivery/united_parcel_service.htm

"I received my 755 today by UPS. Odered it Monday afternoon (4/1). They weren't kidding when they said it was heavy. This is one heavy S*B. On the down side, all of the staples that were used to close the bottom of the box were "popped", and the box was open. I e-mailed Jarmen, and suggested that in addition to the staples they should tape the shipping boxes for the 755, and 770 closed. I'll be interested to see if they follow through on the suggestion or not. Now all I have to do is get the amp home and see if it is OK. I can't wait. Maybe I'll go ask the boss if I can leave early."
This is a message I posted under the 755 thread. UPS dosen't seem to do too well with very heavy packages. I would not consider them as my first choice to ship one of Outlaws power amps. I hope everything works out for you.

Why am I not surprised when reading these?

Hey Oil Can. If UPS brought it, you may wish to at least shake it to make sure it doesn't rattle. I'd hate to see you bring down the grid in your neighborhood because of internal damage caused by them.

Go ahead and reply and you'll become a Gunslinger.

Bill

I checked out the consumer website. They are even worse than I thought. It is easy to believe that it is their business plan to
deny any and all claims. Insurance is, indeed just incremental income to them. I would strongly encourage the OUTLAWs to formally join a boycott of delivery providors who intentionally, and with prior intent, conduct anti consumer activities such as we see here. I will never use them for any services again even if competing services are more money and/or less convenient. As I see it loss of my stuff is included in the cost of the transaction

Eddyboy

The box 755 was shipped in was open when I received it, they obviously had dropped it, and I checked the contents while the UPS guy watched. There was no appearent damage to the 755, so I had him sign that the packaging was damaged, and that I would file a claim if the unit proved to be inoperable. Luckily it has been two months without problems, but as they say at the end of the pre-fight instructions, "and protect yourself at all times".

UPDATE:

MailBOXES etc sez that they sent the amp
to the OUTLAWs for a repair estimate. They
would pay the fair cost of repairs (they being the sole arbiter of what is fair).

The Outlaws told them that the amp is a write
off and is just not repairable. Sooo..Mailboxes say so sorry, since it is a total write off, they won't pay anything, ZERO, not even what they might have paid if it had been repairable. Small Claims is next.

I also got something from them that is not in the fine print. Their insurance pays ONLY IF THEY PACK THE ITEM. So if you are forced to use them (I still don't recommend it) bring your item opened and pay them their fee to pack it. Then their insurance is binding.

I can't tell why they still accept the insurance money if you pack it yourself since the fine print voids the insurance. Guess they have no rules against incremental income at no risk??!

eddyboy

eddyboy, Thanks for the follow up. When using any shipper we now know to ask Insurance questions first. And its always BUYER BEWARE, wheather its a big item purchase or shipping a sale item off. It's just a rip that MailBox's only pay on a damaged item if they package it. And UPS has the final word on their own insurance.

I guarantee that if you took MailBoxes to court, they'd lose in a heartbeat regarding the insurance thing...even if they didn't pack it. If they're taking your money(consideration-legal term), they're accepting the responsibility. Any attorney would be able to prove it. Problem is, attorney's fees can cost more than the product and are often unrecoverable even if you're awarded a judgement. Only thing you can do in the future is use another shipper. I just received a 770 today by FedEx today. Haven't plugged it in yet, but there's no damage to the exterior of the unit. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. They did manage to pop the staples on the bottom of the box, but the tape held...thank goodness.

I have just gone through a damage claim with FedEx on a damaged Paradigm speaker. The speaker was dropped hard enough to cause the magnets on the back of both tweeters (bi-polar model) to break off.

The shipper was a prick about the whole deal and didn't file the claim, but with FedEx Ground, I found out either party can file the damage claim.

After I stepped in to work with FedEx myself, I had a check in the mail within a week!!

Their customer support has been outstanding. In fact, one rep told me that they have been getting a lot of UPS's ground business because of many disgruntled customers.

fly guy

I sold my 750 on ebay and shipped it via fedex in the original box.

The new owner opened it and noticed the corner was slightly damaged. He opened the top and every single audio connector was snapped off the circuit boards.

Fedex refunded the money after a lengthy process. I'm sure glad I used fedex vs. UPS!.

Similar to what fly guy relates, I had a heavy, compact, self-powered subwoofer delivered to me in the original box without apparent damage on the outside. The box must have fallen off a shelf, a pallet, or off the truck somewhere in shipment and landed squarely on the side on a flat surface like a cement floor or asphalt road - no punctures or bent corners, but inside the double-box container the 1-inch MDF enclosure was cracked in several places and the magnet had snapped off of the driver's cast aluminum 'basket.' The very heavy magnet was now free to roam around inside the enclosure and 'crunch' on the built-in amplifier electronics during the remainder of the journey. The package was left at my door while no one was home.

FedEx wanted to brush me off, "No damage to the box on the outside? Shipper must have shipped you a damaged item. Not our fault." Very, very fortunately I had insisted that the seller take pictures of the item on the day he packed it. Not only of the item, but of every step in the process of packing it in the double-box container. Once the seller made a claim and included about eight of the images showing that a perfect conditon item was indeed carefully and properly packed, and once I sent about six images showing the damage, FedEx approved the claim. Somewhere between two and six weeks later, I was re-imbursed.

If you buy or ship anything worth more than $50 that is not brand new from the manufacturer, take pictures as if you you knew you were going to court - unless you want to risk more than $50.

Oh, the FedEx reimbursement doesn't include returning the demolishing fee, oops, I mean shipping fee, that FedEx originally charges.

just got a 750 today from ups. It came to within 1 hour of my house and was LOST! I sat for a week- waiting for word from ups. Shipper tells me he got it back! He sent it again. Took another 2 weeks to arrive (3 1/2 total). Box is ripped, styro is shattered, and positive speaker post for the 1st channel is popped off! Aggghhh ....!!!!

Such a very amazing link!

I have had two separate loudspeaker purchases arrive with the box in near pristine condition and yet the heavy driver magnet structure snapped off and rolled around in the cabinet destroying anything inside not initially broken. The best I can surmise is that the boxes were dropped in such a way as to land ‘flat’ on a side from a sufficient distance that the ‘sudden stop at the end’ was more than the welds holding the magnet structure to the loudspeaker’s metal frame could bear.

If a shipper wished to do so, they can attach what is basically a ‘warning: g-force rating exceeded’ device to the box. If the devices arrives showing white or clear, no excessive g-forces occurred during shipment. If the device arrives showing a red indicator, that box was certainly dropped, whether the box looks to be in good shape or not.

When buying new from a manufacturer or authorized seller, usually it’s up to the shipper to seek recompense and supply a replacement product, but do check a seller’s policies.

In my case, both purchases that were damaged were from private sellers. Very fortunately I had insisted, and they followed through, on taking pictures of the item just before and at each step during the packing process. Whether UPS or Fedex, both were not going to pay saying that “either the seller shipped a broken item to you and is trying to get money they don’t deserve, or they didn’t pack the item properly.” The images showing the item in good shape and being packed properly showed the seller was not at fault. The images I took of the damage ‘after shipping’ showed the condition of the delivered item. Only then did UPS or Fedex reluctantly pay.

My advice in a private sale: the person doing the shipping should take way too many pictures of all sides, top and bottom, and ‘the guts’ if one can see inside easily, of the item, plus all the packing, box-in-box and Styrofoam or other filler materials, before shipping!

You have been warned. Just do it!

My horror stories have been with FedEx not UPS but I think each shipper has its problems. My local FedEx delivery guy once forged my name on the delivery slip because the package was too heavy to take back to the truck! It was the 85 lbs ATI amp noted in my signature that was too much trouble to deliver properly. When I confronted the local FedEx supervisor after seeing online (I was at work at the time) that I'd accepted and signed for the delivery at home they deferred to the driver. He was a joke and said if the amp had been stolen from my porch he'd would have taken care of it. What a bunch of BS! I won't ship via FedEx as a result.

On the other hand I have spoken with my local UPS driver and let him know I get deliveries of rather fragile items on regular basis. We acknowledged there was nothing he could do until it is on his truck but he would take appropriate care with my deliveries.

I couldn't agree more with Bestban4thebuck's advice on taking pictures during packing regardless of the shipper. I'd also recommend taking pictures as you open a package. I have purchased a number of vintage Pioneer components over the last year or so and only 2/3rds of them have arrived undamaged. A vintage tuner was dropped by FedEx so hard it bent a 1/4 inch aluminum faceplate, bent knobs and switches and broke the glass. The photos I took as I opened the package convinced the seller to submit a claim and get FedEx to pay up. Just today I received a vintage receiver with a bent tuning knob/shaft and cracked glass. This one may be hard to pin on FedEx as the item was poorly packed but it obviously bounced around inside the box because of the way it was handled.

For my ebay purchases I contact the seller and offer to pay extra for shipping if they will double box, wrap the item in bubble wrap and pack the item so it absolutely can't shift up/down or side/side in the inner box. Most won't do it and say they've never had a problem with whatever shipper but a couple have and it was worth the extra $10 to $15. In one of those cases the box had obviously been dropped but the component was fine.

Now I'm off to take more pictures of my damaged receiver in hopes of getting the seller to refund me part of my purchase price. Wish me luck!

I understand the horror stories but having just had three completely different experiences, I believe a lot of fault, most of the time, lies with the seller or company packaging the unit.

I recently purchased a Parasound HCA-855A power amp on ebay. The seller first shipped a 1.5" tall Yamaha tuner which he had sold to someone else for the $30 which is what he also charged them for "shipping and handling". His "packaging" for the tuner was a single layer of cardboard that gapped around the product. Suffice it to say it did not arrive in pristine condition. Fortunately for me, the seller had no idea what had happened to the HCA-855A, so he arranged for a credit before it arrived. Three weeks later the power amp arrived. It was in a box with a footprint smaller then HCA-855A and enough paper in the bottom to allow the amp to fit by having the sides of the box bulge around the amp. He then bubble wrapped it enough to cover the top and front of the amp only and dropped it the box. The box was so tall, that there was at least 6" of open air over the top of the amp. Finally he (or USPS) wrapped the box in plastic straps. Several of these arrived broken. The amps rear handle is now bent, all 4 bottom corners were dinged and buckled and there are broken parts inside the amp that rattle around when you move it. To make matters worse when the amp did arrive, he:
1) claimed that was not how the amp was originally packaged and claimed the USPS must have reboxed it
2) told me that he did not insure it for what I had paid for it.

My third experience was with the Outlaw 750 I purchased to replace the HCA-855A. The person or packing company used some type of self forming foam pad that came in a plastic bag. There was a piece at the bottom, a piece around each corner and one on top and the box was completely filled and the amp was locked in place. Needless to say it arrived working perfectly.

The final thought was that the first seller also charged more for shipping and handling then the second seller, so clearly its not what you pay that determines the quality of the shipping.

I'm glad to hear your new 750 arrived safely and I'm particularly interested in where I could get some of that self forming foam. I just sold and shipped three pieces of vintage Pioneer gear and I went to particular lengths to pack them well. It was particularly important for a 54 lbs two channel amp. That self forming foam would have made the job much easier.

Of course you are right that price alone does not indicate you will get a well packed item. However, my offer to pay for good packing has spooked a couple of sellers into taking greater care and as a result my purchases arrived safely. In one case the outer box was punctured and had it not been for the additional packing the piece of gear might have been damaged.