I didn't see a forum for power conditioners, and since the 950 needs to be plugged in somewhere - I'll start this post here.

In keeping with the Outlaw "tradition" of calling questionable hi-fi practices into question, I have to ask if power conditioners are of any real value. I just saw one which sells for $2,500

- more than my B-stock 755 and 950 combined!! For a glorified (yet really shiny) powerstrip.

This just smells of scam !!

Anybody have any REAL info./experience on these products ?

Bryan

I think there was a thread running here at one point regarding this subject.

Generally, having a good surge protector outlet strip is good cheap protection from transient spikes from things like lightning strikes nearby (not direct strikes!) and other power over voltages taking out your equipment. You don't need to spend a lot for one of these.

Power line filters soak up some radio frequency and lower frequency interferrence from appliances turning on etc. The scoop on these is that if you don't hear any problems now like buzzes, pops and the like, you don't necessarily need a power line filter.

There are other, way more exotic devices on the market that undoubtedly work to some extent, but again, you have to have a problem for them to address in order for them to do any good.

Talk of these devices doing things like enhancing soundstaging etc are in my opinion total BS.

I use TrippLite surge supressor/filters in my system. They are pretty inexpensive, and get the job done.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited May 30, 2003).]

Soundhound :

Is the Tripplite brand widely available ?

I recently added a monster cable HTS1000 line conditioner to my system. When the compressor of the fridge (or any other high draw item) would kick in I would get a hum through the speakers. The HTS1000 has removed all noise through the speaker, dead quite. It has a stage 2 filter, as I understand this effectively isolates the HT system from the rest of the electrical system in the house. More expensive conditioners also provide isolation not only between the HT system and the rest of the house but between the various components in the HT system. At around $150 I have been very pleased with the HTS1000.

my $.02

TrippLite is pretty easy to find. It also has the inter-component isolation feature mentioned above to absorb any digital clock "backwash" that could leak between components. The particular unit I have is the "Isobar", which comes in various configurations differing in number of outlets and filtering.

www.tripplite.com

The Tripplite seems like a reasonably priced surge supressor - Best price so far for the 8 outlet iso-bar was around $59 .

They say they will insure up to $50,000 for damage to your equip. - A $59 insurance policy sounds better than a $2,500 one, if they will back their coverage.

TrippLite caters mainly to professional and industrial users, and they've been around forever, so that bodes well for their reputation.

BTW, the Isobar is also a power line filter in addition to being a surge supressor.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited May 30, 2003).]

Soundhound, in your opinion, is a product like the Tripplite ISOBAR12ULTRA Surge Suppressor similar to the Monster HTS1000 in functionality? The ISOBAR12ULTRA appears to be about half the price of the HTS1000.

I'm not really familiar with the Monster units, and I'm sure they are pretty good, but I doubt any better than the TrippLite ones.

The main reason the TrippLite outlets are cheaper is that they are not subject to the "hype tax" of consumer gear, and they are manufactured in higher quantities because of their wider market sector.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited May 30, 2003).]

IMO, power conditioners are definately *not* scams.

Everyone should have at least a basic surge suppressor. But the $12 kind you get at a hardware store use MOVs, and because MOVs are sacrificial in nature, when the MOV is gone usually you don't even know it. Here's the best I've found: www.brickwall.com .

Next level up is basic filtration. A la Monster, Adcom, Panamax, etc. Sometimes you get an improvement, sometimes not. But sometimes filters create more problems than they solve:

http://www.psaudio.com/articles/power_conditioners.asp

Next up, is balanced power. BP uses common mode noise rejection which is the exact same noise rejection mechanism used for balanced interconnects. The proof of the benefit of balanced interconnects has been known of for years, and now it's being applied to AC as well. Lots's of good reviews on power conditioners and balanced power units here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/masterindex_power_conditioners.html

At the top of the heep, in my opinion, are the Power Plants by PS Audio. They basically take the AC from your wall, convert it to DC, and regenerate a pure AC sinusoidal signal. But they aren't cheap, and they are only about 50% power efficiant.

Me? I had an Adcom ACE 515 for years, the tried the 615 with and without some Richard Grey 400s's, then decided to read up on all this stuff, and finally went with an Equitech 2Q. One of the best purchases I ever made. Blacker blacks, more vibrant colors, no snow/noise/haze at all now for video, no effect on my system when the refrigerator compressor turns on, and there was a drastic drop in noise level for audio. But everyone has to decide for themselves how much they want to spend for what level of "conditioning". I think of it this way: a power conditioner does nothing less or more but let your system perform to its maximum potential, even in spite of poor quality AC.

Here is a quote regarding the "powerplant" .
It seems as if the "reviewer" is claiming that the powerplant actually affects the quality of the sound in his system - not by only removing "bad stuff" (techinical term of art) from the electricity flowing to his equip. - BUT actually improves the soundstage/focus of the individual performers in the music.

If this is the case - then the line conditioner is not just a surge suppressor with a filter,and an insurance policy, but actually an audio component in itself -

"I've had a chance to listen to the P300 for a few days now, and I've had a very hard time tearing myself away. This is a stunning product! By comparison, my old conditioner "homogenized" the sound, so everything had the same filtered quality. With the P300, the individuality of every performance and recording is so much more distinct." PA

I have a Monster HTS3500 (got for less than $200) and it did a wonderful job. I do have my tv on a UPS (APC on sale for $39) and both combined made my (household) noises disappear.

Well, like I said, the Isobar doesn't have the "hype" baggage to contend with....

Sig- I know. Well you know, could be just like those $1000/m cables, the $219 isolation pods, etc, that also "improve" the sound quality of your system too!

Heh, and let's not even get started on "audiophile power cables"!

Jeff

As well as a Tripplite Isobar surge protector, I have about a 10 to 12 year old Tripplite LC 1800 Line Conditioner and Stabilizer. Paid $75 for it used. It seems like it got some play with Steroephile at the time, but it was highly sought after way back when. They still make them as well as the Isobar.

I feel that if you have a significant amount of money/time invested into your Home Theater you will want something to protect it. I purchased a Panamax Max 5300, not just for it's ability to protect my investment, but to provide additional Features such as:

DC Voltage trigger input and pass-through output for initiating a startup/shutdown sequence.

Protection for Satellite, Antenna, RJ-11/45

11 Outlets

http://www.panamax-sales.com/max5300.htm

MeanGene brings up a good point. A lot of units, in addition to any kind of noise filtering that they do, also provide for switched and unswitched outets (TV and VCR always on, but then you can turn on the entire rest of your system with one button), and some even have delayed powered on outlets, such that the source components & pre/pro are turned on *before* the power amps(s) to prevent turn on thumps through your speakers.

I've got a Panamx 5100 line conditioner and it seems to do very well at keeping everything working when the power get crazy. During a recent very violent thunderstorm (there was almost no time between the lightning flash and the boom) the lights in the house would flicker and everything connected to the Panamax kept on working as if nothing happened. The voltage display on the front was dancing around but none of my equipment seemed to notice. Only during long brown-outs or black-out would the Panamax disconnect power to my system. Once the power returned it would automatically reconnect the power and keep on going.

I live way out in the boonies and I can run our whole house off a back-up generator. When I first got the 5100 I hooked everything up, turned it all on and started screwing around with the generator. I cranked up the voltage, dropped the voltage, and varied the frequency. There was never a time when the picture on my digital Sony XBR800 or the sound through the system showed any sign that there was a problem. The picture was clear and stable and the audio was totally normal. When the power got too far out of whack the Panamax would disconnect the entire system from the power. Once I brought the voltage back within range, it would return power to my system.

The Panamax is not as sexy as the Monster units, but it is considerably cheaper. The 5100 weighs about 25 lbs so it is a good warm-up before you pick up your Outlaw 770 amp.

Read here to find out the full benefits of power filtration and regulation. See Below:

THE IMPROVEMENT

"The sonic improvements in an audio system include fuller bass; wider dynamics; higher volume levels at normal settings; huge, open soundstage; and very detailed articulation of the mid and high frequencies.

In a video system a viewer will experience improved color saturation; contrast and brightness levels; elimination of dot crawl; dramatically increased sharpness; greatly reduced video artifacts, graininess, noise and distortion; and a more three-dimensional effect from the video source."

From - http://www.exactpower.com

Gee, I guess I don't have to upgrade to DLP after all.


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MeanGene's Home


[This message has been edited by MeanGene (edited May 31, 2003).]

I also have had very good luck with a Panamax unit. I have an older 1000+ model that removes input power in the case of excessively high, or excessively low line voltage. It does not rely solely on sacrificial components.
In addition, provides an accurate multi-LED line voltage monitor display, and delayed turn-on/off power outlets.
Whether you believe in improved sound from conditioners or not, a unit like this provides a minimum amount of protection every A/V system should have IMHO.

[This message has been edited by DaleB (edited June 01, 2003).]

In this Pebble Beach Home Theater they use a Panamax. So I guess they are good enough for my sub $600,000.00 system.

http://www.revolutionhometheater.com/gifs/virtualtours/pebblebeach/pulloutrack.jpg

I think line conditioners are a good thing, but I have my doubts on my ability to benefit from all of the claims noted above. My sound stage transforms into one that is "Huge" just by plugging in? I'm going to take the Missouri stand on this one.


[This message has been edited by MeanGene (edited June 01, 2003).]

WoW - I have to ask - do you know what speakers this "Pebble Beach" system uses ?

Just curious as to what someone who apparently has price no object chose - although I guess the main lesson of the Outlaw Saloon is that more $$ does not necessarily mean better quality.

But it sure helps

I don't know what the Pebble Beach home uses, but here is a link to a money is no object system (at least I think so).

http://www.alonbyacarian.com/index2.htm

Just bought the Tripplite Isobar 8 as reccommended by Soundhound - for $60 - including shipping.

I'll report back - this looks like what I need, piece of mind that I can listen to my Outlaw when it's raining outside : )

I love my Panamax 5100 but I cannot say I noticed a difference in my systems performance. For me, it is worth it's price protecting my system from bad power.

I also have the panamax 5100's, 2 for each line I have running into the theatre room. I am very happy with them and with these, ya get what you pay for.

Like others have said..the peace of mind alone is worth the price

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Play it LoUd!!

I posted awhile back that I read that it's not a good idea to use computer surge protectors for audio devices because they tend to limit current and distort the sound-I have tested this theory with a few products and found it to be true.I own panamax 1500 and if you research I think you will also find that panamax is probably the best of the surge protectors-performance wise and protection wise-I read that someone accidently plugged their panamax surge protector into a 220v outlet and it protected their equipment(although the surge protector did die).I suspect that if you did that with a monster surge protector your equipment would fry.I think you'll find with research that panamax uses higher quality components inside.If I had alot more money I would buy the exactpower power producers for better system performance or my second choice would be the psaudio powerplants(although they use lots of power,run hot,and make a small amount of noise sometimes,which would not be good for my small room).

I absolutely agree with your comments about the Panamax, but I have to disagree with the article you read. I am not an electrician, but I think that the plug ends of a 220 circuit are different and incompatible with a 110 circuit. Meaning - it would be impossible to plug a 110v properly wired cable into a 220v receptacle.

In my own experience I had a tweeter/midrange fuse blow in one of my rear speakers. The Panamax 5300 shut down the entire system, protecting the components and speakers.

[This message has been edited by MeanGene (edited June 10, 2003).]

That is assuming that the correct elecrical codes were followed. I have seen 110v plugs running 220v!

Would a surge suppressor/filter like the TrippLite solve my ground loop problem or do I need something else? Every time I connect my digital cable box to my receiver I get a hum from my subwoofer.

What you should try is an isolation transformer to put in-line with your cable drop. I don't know of a specific source for these, but I'm sure somebody here does. Might try that old standby, RadioShack. A power conditioner like the TrippLite won't effect this particular problem,

Hyenna, you might try this

Soundhound :
quick question I thought you might have the answer too.

I bought the Tripplite isobar 8 - and plugged it into a 3 prong outlet (grounded), and the diagnostic lights indicate a fault in my wiring - which could be possible, this is an older home - BUT when I plug in any equipment to the isobar, the diagnostic lights - "say" that I am protected , and the line is fine -

which is correct ? any suggestions ?

Thx. Bryan

Bryan:

THAT IS WEIRD!!!!

I would trust what the IsoBar says with nothing plugged into it. What might be happening is that it might be "finding" an earth ground through some other piece of equipment that is also plugged in to the strip. You can purchase small plug-in devices at the hardware store that have three lights that tell the condition of the earth ground, and wiring of the socket. I would suggest you get one of these (they're cheap, and can amuse your friends) and verify your wiring. If you do not have a good earth ground at your outlet, the Isobar will give you little filtering benefit, since there's no ground to shunt the filtered-out crud to.

Your outlets may not have an earth ground: my 1926 house's original outlets don't. My HT room has all new electrical wiring, thank goodness.

A house doesn't have to be that ancient to have grounding issues. An alert from my power conditioner alerted me to a grounding issue (builder had miswired an entire circuit from the box). Radio Shack has a cheap circuit tester that's well worth the investment. It's critically important. Without a connection to ground, there's a risk that a short won't draw enough current to blow a circuit breaker...bad news for anything on that circuit. Also, many surge supressors and power conditioners *will not work* unless properly grounded. You'll also find that the equipment warranties will mysteriously disappear if you've got a wiring fault.

That said, I don't run any of my systems without power conditioning. You can get a relatively cheap kit at diycable.com (or a list of parts that will let you build one even cheaper). Short story: they work, but you need to be able to separate the good ones from the crap.

BTW, I do own interconnects that retail at $1400/meter, and power cords that retail at $1500 (OK, so I got a good deal). They work too. An upgraded power cord in particular is critical for the 950. It doesn't have to be an expensive one (the one I use for the 950 cost me $50) but the right cord can greatly enhance the musical ability of the unit.

I think that's the whole point. Is protection. If it enhances your system too, that would be great, but protecting it is a primary objective in my opinion.

For the past 6 years I have had my system running through a Newpoint surge protector, and have never had it trip or had a problem with my system, (no video or audio problems). However, I have not had much trouble with the weather until this summer. The past week has been terrible with thunder storms, brown and black outs. So I am rethinking about my system's protection since I cannot be home to unplug my set-up every day. Any thoughts about the Panamax 5300 vs the MonsterPower HTS 5000 MKII? Panamax apparently shuts the system down if voltage goes outside parameters but I don't see this with MonsterPower, but then the MonsterPower has a higher joule rating than the Paramax. Oh what to do with my money?

Brownouts, blackouts and slight overvoltage are not the problems you need to be concerned with. Where a surge protector will save a system is with really high overvoltge situations like from lightening striking a nearby power pole. However, if you have a direct lightning strike on your house, almost nothing will help except homeowner's insurance. Any good surge protector will do the job with an indirect lightning hit. I use the TrippLite "Isobar" surge protectors/filters and they do the job (they're for professional/industrial use) and they don't have the cost penalty of being a "boutique" product.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited August 11, 2003).]

Right. There are miles and miles of generic power cabling leading from the power source to your house, but by changing 1.5 feet of it, you can suddenly "greatly enhance the musical ability of the unit."

Uh huh. You just go on and keep telling yourself that.

And as for interconnects that cost $1,400 a meter, my only response to that is that for every meter you've got of that brand, you could have gotten about a hundred DVDs instead. Guess where I'd rather spend my money ....

Jeff

I bought a $12 Beldin power cord that drastically improved my system. (Beldfoil shielded, 14x3 gauge, 1800W capacity, SJT cord.) I immediately also heard greater detail in the soundstage with the most apparent improvement exhibited in the midrange.

If you don't believe me, please check out my post of August 08, 2003 01:20 AM in this thread:

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000908-2.html

A tweak I have used before and found to greatly enhance the musicality of my system is to paint the door of my electrical circuit breaker box on the outside of my house with green spray paint. The results are absolutely unbelieveable!!

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited August 11, 2003).]

What shade of Green and how many coats?

Peace, LTK

Outlaw power button green, of course. And it's best to apply at least nine coats, alternating between horizontal spray pattern on odd numbered coats and vertical on even numbered coats. You start seeing diminishing returns after nine coats...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited August 11, 2003).]

I tried the green marker thing on the CD edge, the magic dots stuck on various things and other gimmiks. I even tried the green spray paint on the electrical breaker panel. Nope!

Then, I tried sniffing the wet paint while listening to Beatles' Lucy in the Sky with ... I was transported to a realm of utter musical mystery tour ... oops ... no ... an alternate reality of sonic delights ... no ... someting happened.

Paul

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the 1derful1

Joke all you want, but a recent experience with poor power in my house has made me a believer of conditioners: When I first installed my 950/7100, I noticed the lights would dim on every power-up. Obviously a temporary power dip on an overloaded circuit. This was acceptable until I hooked up my $5000 Infocus projector into a different outlet (but on the same circuit). Long story short, the first system use and the projector no longer worked. A trip to Infocus to replace a power circuit board and lamp controller and then back home, now hooked up to a power conditioner with many uses and no problems. No dips in the lights anymore either. Now I wouldn't hook up a single component without the insurance. There is no substitute for good clean power.

Of course it's very important to have some circuit protection, especially if you live in an area where lightning strikes are common. Some people go way overboard however seeking to cure imaginiary problems. Green paint (actually it was "Teal" colored) is the only cure for these problems.

In what was one of life's little chance moments, I happened to be reading this thread earlier today when our neighbourhood experienced a brief brown-out / power failure. Other than the twin beeping sounds telling me that my two UPS units had kicked in to protect / keep my home theatre and home network powered up, there were no other effects. Likewise the nearby lightning strike last month. In fact in the case of the latter occurence, a tape dub and a DVD burn kept humming along undeterred. Protection from damage and inconvenience: that's what it's all about. Improved sound and picture during normal operation: gimme a break!

Regards.

Jeff Mackwood

We did not have a storm, but on Sunday some major power interrupts, 3 times in a row over about 30 seconds.
My UPS on the pc screamed but the PC just glided through, no problem. Screen did not even flicker.
In the HT room, the FM on and the entire electronics shut down, which is what the Panamax will do for major power excursions.
I powered everything back up and nothing was amiss. No better test than the real world.

We jest, but there *can* be value to power conditioners. I have an Equitech balanced power unit that uses the same principal for noise suppression as balanced interconnects: common mode noise rejection. And it also has surge protection, unfortunately with MOVs. But fortunately, there is an indicator light on the front that always shows the status of the MOVs. But it is still black. Maybe I can get even more improvement if I painted it green!

BTW, I *was* joking about any improvement with the power cords. Just that having shielded interconnects *and* power cords does make sure I have the quietest system possible.

Here's how I view it: no fancy schmancy power cord, power conditioner, cable, speaker wire, etc, can make a system perform better. But what each of those can do (to various degrees), if a person is strategic about getting value for their money, is to allow a system to perform to its maximum potential. Kind of like a crappy (anything) can make things worse, but IMO you don't have to spend much to get to a level a quality in an accessory component that *won't* degrade things and let's the source shine through unimpeded.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited August 13, 2003).]

As the king of car analogies, I must say some people drive around just fine with the stock batteries that came with their cars. Those that tweak their rides or go offroad know the value of a quality aftermarket battery. Likewise, a good set of heavy duty, super insulated plug leads can make a world of differrence. Others drive along just fine oblivious to these subtle enhancements.

What power cord did you upgrade to on the 950 and where can you get one? Thanks, Kevin

If you reread this entire thread a little more carefully, you'll see that every response that was made after the post you just quoted is really a good bit of sarcasm. Most people in the saloon tend to believe that changing 6 feet of power cable between your 950 and the wall is not really going to change anything about your system.

If you are still interested in "high-end" power cables, check your local hi-fi store. There are plenty out there seeking your hard earned money. Here's one example:

www.psaudio.com/products/xstream_power_statement.asp

and here's another:

www.analysis-plus.com/Pages/powercables.htm

Thanks for the advice, but I did read the thread quite carefully. I feel personally that if a person thinks that a cable, be it power or interconnect, can make a difference in their system, that is for them to decide. I was simply asking what cable dybbuk chose to replace his stock cable with.

I've got the monster hts-5100, and it works great. They definately work. I paid $699 for mine, and i think it is well worth it. It does improve the sound, as well as the video clarity.

Anyone have an opinion of the (custom) VansEvers altered power strips? See:

http://www.vansevers.com/

for his "home-theater" device.

Jay

Here's another surge protector/line conditioner that seems different. It doesn't use MOVs and it's literature is very convincing. Anyone have an opinion on:

www.pricewheeler.com

They make an audio "brick wall" device for $249 that looks promising.

Jay

you would be nuts to not protect your equipment with something, but make sure it can handle everything you plan on connecting. speaking of funny, i like those companies that sell a $3000 power cord, now that is funny. i am partial to good quality (not outrageous) cabling, but NOT FOR SPENDING MORE THAN A COMPONENT on a stupid power cord.

Here’s a way to get some good power cords that’s financially more sensible.
http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html

Any truth to the notion that a power amp will be restricted to its performance if hooked up to a surge protector? I have my 770 and by sub's amp hooked up to separate surge protectors to "protect" the auto on circuits. Good idea or bad?

Alejate:

My Panamax 5100 power conditioner has two out of ten outlets suited for amps. In the manual, it says while offering protection against power surge, those two outlets do not restrict power level in demanding situations for amp. Monster brand may have the same as well.