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I was also planning on running stereo subs and was planning on taking care of all bass management via an ICBM (which I would put between the 950 and the 7100). In the set-up I'm looking at, the front left and right speakers would be full range, so I really don't want to have the low frequently information for the front speakers summed and directed to the LFE channel. Nor do I want the low frequeny information in the surround channels summed, since the plan was to have the ICBM direct the low frequency info on the left surrounds to the left subwoofer and the low frequency info on the right surrounds to the right subwoofer. Obviously, this is only a problem if you're using a DVD-Audio or Multichannel SACD player via the 5.1 input, but that's exactly what I was planning to do.

I suppose that one solution would be to bypass the 950 entirely and connect the DVD-Audio/Multichannel SACD player directly to a 5.1 switcher, and then connect the outputs of the 950 to the switcher as well, and then connect the switcher to the ICBM. But then we're dealing with (1) an awful lot of cables and (2) two devices inserted between the 950 and the amp, resulting in god knows how much degradation of the audio signal. Maybe someday we'll get an ICBM2, with two sets of 5.1 inputs.

Personally, I still don't understand why the Outlaws bothered to incorporate flawed analog bass management into the 950. It would have made far more sense not to have messed with the 5.1 input, and then those people who needed bass management for their DVD-A/SACD player could simply buy the ICBM.

Actually bestbang4thebuck's solution is a hell of a lot simpler than using a 5.1 switcher, since it's really only the sub-out on the 950 that presents a problem. That's probably what I'll end up doing.

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I can certainly understand why they'd be reluctant to admit that there's a design flaw in the 950, much less correct it. But it still amazes me that they even went this route in the first place. First of all, it's not as if people were screaming for analog bass management on the 950. Indeed, the Outlaws had already produced a separate device for that. And second, virtually all of the second generation DVD-A and SACD players incorporte some kind of bass management. So the problem the analog bass management in the 950 was designed to deal with is becoming less common, and now it's the 950 itself that's creating a problem by adding bass management where none is needed.


[This message has been edited by David Olstein (edited August 15, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by David Olstein (edited August 15, 2003).]

Hmmm... Sure enough, if you use the left/right recombine switch and set the main channels' crossover to something other than bypass (if you set it to 80Hz, for example), you can achieve double bass. Interesting...

I forgot to mention another bit of the "mess:" not only is there more cabling and an extra switch to make, but in this case, just 5 of the 5.1 channels have volume control via the 950, while the only adjustment for the .1 channel is on the ICBM. The LFE adjust on the ICBM is not really meant to be operated as a volume control. This means finding a couple volume settings on the 950 and the ICBM that match up well with each other in the 5.1 bypass mode, but it hardly gives one a maintainable balance with a volume control that can be altered from the listening position(s) with the remote.

I'm for sending $50 to Outlaw and saying, "Please supply a mod that allows me to defeat the 5.0 low frequency summing to the SUB OUT while maintaining my warranty."



[This message has been edited by bestbang4thebuck (edited August 15, 2003).]

Sorry, all. I didn't realize in the first post that the question centered around the use of the ICBM.

Also, I have a seperate processor that I built for an LFE discrete sub system, so the LFE signal never enters my 950 at all.

It's good to note here that the LFE channel is basically a double bass channel. That is, it's almost exclusively used to double, or boost the bass tracks of the other 5 channels.

The double bass refered to in this thread is when the 950's analog BM switch is set to 'off'. Then, the 5 sats receive full range signal while a copy of those 5 signals is sent to the SW output, filtered @ 80 Hz. and summed with the LFE signal.

My answer to this situation is a simple one. I connect the player's SW output to a one channel pre/pro that is specifically designed for LFE, which then outputs to it's own LFE sub.

This will allow you to set the 950's BM any way you like and use the ICBM very succesfully, if you like. You may also use 2 subs for stereo redirected bass (in addition to the LFE sub).

My LFE pre/pro actually has a crossover (as opposed to a LF filter) which allows an LFE satellite to render the LFE channel in Hi-Rez MC audio a full range channel. Or, you can set the crossover to, say, 60 Hz and use an upper bass sub to enjoy the full 120 Hz LFE range with punch.

Outlaw has maintained all along that the 'double bass' issue is not a serious one for most systems. That is, more or less, a correct statement (see my post above). Using the ICBM is a different story as this thread proves.

All I can really say is, what a difference a year makes! It's great to see so many posts from people who understand the LF of MC audio vs the utter state of confusion that existed this time last year.

As always, I point to Gonk as the go-to guy in this forum to at least get the ball rolling if not to nail the solution in, like 12 seconds after you post a Q.

I tried to bring up the phase cancellation problems of using stereo subs in another thread
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000245-3.html

but no one responded.

I'm glad some of you are thinking about it (this obviously is different than the usual double bass issues here, but still).

My question is: Can you hear Double Bass and if so, How bad are the effects?

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MeanGene's Home

MG- You can actually test this for yourself, but obviously, you need a 950 and any player hooked up to the analog inputs.

I remember a guy a while ago who got rid of the 1066 because of how much bass he got. Obviously user dependent on the room, and the kind of speakers you have.

Digital bass management is not applied in 6ch bypass. This is the main reason I am going to try the ICBM. However, I am disappointed there looks to be no clean way around the 'double bass'.

Does anyone know what would need to be modified on the board to eliminate this problem? I am very confortable with removing a few thru-hole or SMT components.

Is it possible with the 950 to set the crossover at different frequencies for front, rears and center? My Maggie MMGs (front) roll off about 50Hz, the center I plan to get at 80Hz and MGMC1s I plan to get for rear at 80Hz.

Pardon if this is a dumb, but I am new to bass management and it gets very confusing.