Lexicon's return policy is exactly what you said Outlaw's policy is: that you can return the unit for inspection. The difference is that Outlaw's sales channel is internet-based and Lexicon's is dealer-based.

In other words, you're biting into an apple and complaining that it doesn't taste like an orange.

Jeff


[This message has been edited by D'Arbignal (edited August 30, 2003).]

Apples and oranges...I never appreciated likening a $6,000.00 preamp to a perishable good.

If it's a dealer network, then any dealer should be able to address the problem. What if KCB had lived in Minn when he made the purchase and then moved to CA?

In any case, to have called and been told 'We'll get back to you' and heard nothing for over a month, or to be told that your problem is a non-issue is poor service...period.

BoB,

Comparing Lexicon to Outlaw isn't exactly fair, either. Lexicon has outstanding customer service, true, but very few manufacturers indeed have the level of service that Outlaw provides. And remember that Outlaw does it without the middle man, which itself has advantages and disadvantages. (How many people would just love to have gone to a showroom and listen to an Outlaw product before buying?)

Jeff


[This message has been edited by D'Arbignal (edited August 30, 2003).]

Also though, companies that use dealers to sell (and service) their product may do fine even if internet boards say something negative about the company's service. But Outlaw, on the otherhand, depends so much on the finicky internet community to sell their product, and doesn't have a neighborhood dealer on their side to off-set anything negative from the internet boards, which may be another reason Outlaw has to try very hard to give good customer service.

Well, I own a Lexicon and I'm going to be purchasing a 2004 Acura MDX so I guess I'm in for a heap of trouble regarding customer service on both counts, right?



Seriously, let's not lose focus here. Granted, service can vary from dealer to dealer and not having do deal with dealers (lot of "dealing" going on here - almost sounds like a casino!) may have some good points. Since Outlaw is a direct to customer manufacturer they at least have a handle on being responsible for reacting to a customer's problems with no outside variables beyond their control. And on the question of customer service I feel that Outlaw has gone "above and beyond."

When I was a beta tester with Outlaw on the 950 I felt that perhaps the great interactivity and support I had from them was, in part, an accommodation to me because I was testing their 950s (several iterations of it). However, now that the 950 has been in the public sphere for a long time, I continue to be impressed how Outlaw has dealt with issues that have come up with "regular" customers - even when other manufacturers may have taken a different stance on these issues. Kudos to The Outlaws on that.

In fairness, dealer networks cost money to the manufacturers so that a $6000 list price unit with dealers in the mix doesn't represent a product that should be 7+ times better than an $800 one that is sold direct. True, one should expect the $6000 unit to be considerably better and, in my opinion it is in a number of areas. What is surprising is that the difference in sound is not as big as some might expect.

Dealing with dealers can be variable. Luckily, I've had no "display" issues with my MC-8, but if I did, I'd take it up with my dealer. It's funny, but the Lexicon Display issue seems to be running parallel to the 950 "hum" issue. I didn't have an issue with that either, but I realize that others did. As others have mentioned, Outlaw handled that issue very nicely for most concerned, although there still was a bit of grumbling. You can't please everyone. It's just that with the Outlaw direct-to-customer model, there are fewer people involved to screw things up.

The bottom line is are you pleased with your products? You choose a particular item because you like the way it performs. You've probably done your research and your final choice is based on the features and the performance over time. And you also hope that you will have some recourse in case you have problems.

When I decided to purchase a Lexicon I did this based on what others thought of their units, the features that it had, the ability to get answers to questions (SMR forum is a top-notch resource) and an upgrade path (Lexicon traditionally takes care of users with software and hardware updates and generous trade in offers when new products come out.) I realize that things can go wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that my MC-8 is one hellova piece of equipment.

I'm not about to purchase a less capable product because its dealer network is "better" (whatever that represents). My first priority is the quality of the unit I'm considering once I've established my budget. To me, a better support structure for a lesser product is not my top priority. For others, their priorities may differ. And, for the record, I think Lexicon is very responsive to most needs based on what I've heard.

And the same goes for my upcoming Acura MDX. I've looked at a lot of SUVs over the past few months and I'm going with the Acura. I have a very good dealer and in talking to others who have used this dealer find that people are satisfied with him. Sure, there may be some bumps in the road (no pun intended), but once again I'm placing the features, performance and reliabilty I want (and which get a great rating) ahead of the supposed "superiority" of a competitor's dealer network. If something is reliable there is an extremely good chance that you won't have to "deal" with a dealer after the purchase. And if I do, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Yes, quality of support is one thing to consider, but quality of a product is my most important parameter.

My 2 gold (Au) cents, one Aural and one Auto.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 07/27/03)
Now includes my Runco CL-710 DLP FP
and Lexicon MC-8

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited August 29, 2003).]

bossobass,

Thanks for the kind words. They are appreciated. My goal was to offer something that might be useful to a wide audience. Glad to hear that you feel I've had some success with this goal.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 07/27/03)
Now includes my Runco CL-710 DLP FP
and Lexicon MC-8

D'Arbignal- I think your point is only somewhat valid, 'course I have some info right now that you don't. 1st, in terms of what is wrong with my unit, the dealer wouldn't be able to fix it anyway. Would have to go back to the factory. Now, you could say that gee, maybe he'd give me a loaner while that happens, or even swap units straight up. I personally think that'd be easy for a $200 receiver, but I wouldn't even suggest that he put up the money it would take to do that in this case. Hence, that's where the mothership comes in.

Oh yeah, said Minnesota up above. For come reason I was thinking about hockey there for a moment. Actually Mass. (I edited the original message.)

Now, I did get a reply back from Lexicon. Admittedly in a nice way, they said that sure I could send it back, but they practically guarenteed that the display would meet *their* specs, and that they wouldn't replace it anyway. They said they'd only replace the display if it failed entirely. (I got the distinct feeling that they have been asked before about this.)

Bottom line, is that yeah, I run the display at 75% and the buzz isn't that big a deal. But for $6k list... And with the experience I had with the 950 and Outlaw... Just makes me think is all...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited August 30, 2003).]

RAF,
I agree that product quality should be foremost in a decision on a purchase. I think customer service and attitude is as well. If you have two products that from your view are close to each other in what you want, for me, customer service is a factor that would influence my decision. Did you find Lexicon a significantly better product, from your point of view, that their customer service, as experienced by Kevin and myself, would not be a factor if you were buying again?
Also, I was curious if you researched Parasound (C1/C2), Anthem, etc. before you decided on Lexicon. If you did this research, from your point of view, how was Lexicon significantly better?
Chulona

[This message has been edited by chulona (edited August 30, 2003).]

Jeff,

Your points are valid and duly noted. I'm a fan of Lexicon products for years.

Just don't count KCB out yet...he is a smart guy who doesn't usually take the first answer...to the benefit of every consumer of the product in question.

Chulona,

The difference Lex offers is I/O, matrix modes and tweakability. They are, simply, the best in the world...thus, the price difference.

I have outboard I/O routing schemes that suit me, outboard tweaks that rival the Lex and am not interested in matrixes, so the 950 is, simply, the King of Pre/Pros, to me.

OTOH, guys like RAF and Jeff and Sanjay have their own valid reasons for thinking the same of Lexicon, and I'm sure no one will dissuade them.

The subject of customer service is just icing on the cake for me, in the case of any Outlaw product.

Raf,

Where credit is due, no thanks are necessary, nevertheless, I appreciate your comment.

Price IS an issue for me, so I tend to buy budget pre/pro's or pre/pro/tuners and for the same reason, I don't upgrade every year like some folks do. I won't upgrade what I have unless it's for a "gotta have" feature and of course, the price has to be right. At the time I got my 950, a "gotta have" feature was DPL II.

As I recall, the very first inexpensive pre/pro available to the general public that supported DPL II was the Rotel 1066 closely followed by the even cheaper Outlaw 950. Even today, these two remain two of the least expensive pre/pro's or pre/pro/tuners with DPL II available to the general public -- which is remarkable since they've each been out for about a year and a half.

I don't yet know what will replace my 950. I don't know when I'll replace it. But I'm pretty sure it will be replaced by a budget pre/pro/tuner. I think a "gotta have" feature will be it has to support the STANDARD digital interface for DVD-A and SACD. And I think budget pre/pro's and pre/pro/tuners will support this standard before long since players and receivers (from different brands so they should interoperate) already support it. Hopefully budget pre/pro's and pre/pro/tuners will be available soon that support the same standard interface that receivers are already starting to support.

Best,

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited August 31, 2003).]