Why can't we all just get along?

For me it was simple: I really liked what the Cirrus/Outlaw CES modes did for 5.1 soundtracks in a 7.1 speaker system, so I tried Logic 7, and never looked back.

But the thread kind of veered into DSP for 2 ch sources. I agree, not preferred.

Wow. Glad to see that the Outlaw crowd is still opinionated.

willscary,
Good to hear from you, too. Glad to know you are enjoying your system.

And to the others, yes, I've moved on to a Lexicon and will probably never look back. This was a decision on my part and I've explained this elsewhere in this thread so I won't rehash it here.

And yes, now I find the MC-8 to be superior to the 950 because of its great flexibility. Does this make me a "shill" for Lexicon? Absolutely not! But having heard both units I can understand why some people become Lexicon zealots.

It's funny, because it was only a little over a year and a half ago that I was considered by some to be a "shill" for Outlaw! How the times change.


One thing is very clear to me, based on real world use of both units. The 950 lists for $799. The Lexicon MC-8 lists for $6000. While the MC-8 is, in my opinion, superior to the 950, there is no way that it is over 7 times better. This makes the 950 a remarkable bargain in the entry-level pre/pro field (especially when coupled with some of the Outlaw amp combination packages.) I've still not changed my opinion in that regard.

Is the 950 the only entry-level priced separates solution out there? Of course not. But, except for the used components approach, the Outlaw products still represent the best performance for the dollar. In fact, the sound of a 950 can get to be quite close to that produced by the MC-8 (although I have to admit that after living with the MC-8 for about two months now and learning more about tweaking it I prefer the Lexicon's sound). It's just that approaching that level of sound is a bit more cumbersome on the 950 (with the signal acquisition and volume issues I discussed elsewhere.) The MC-8 is just a lot more elegant in that regard, with a menu system and parameters that far exceed the 950's capabilities and tweakability (if that's a word.)

But, to reiterate once again, nothing that I've said above is a knock on the 950. In fact, if price is the major issue, then the Outlaw has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. One of the other 950 beta testers compared the sound produced by the 950 favorably to his Lexicon MC-12 (big brother of my MC-8 and sonically equivalent). I can now confirm his findings.

'Nuff said.

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 07/27/03)
Now includes my Runco CL-710 DLP FP
and Lexicon MC-8



[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited August 26, 2003).]

I think it's a matter of personal preference whether the extra money is worth it. Certainly, there're diminishing returns. If I move from a Bose speaker system to an Energy speaker system, I'm going to see a huge improvement. If I move from the Energy to Aerials, I expect to see a big improvement, but as big as from Bose to Energy. If I move from Aerials to something better, I would expect the improvement to be even more subtle.

Same with the MC-8/MC-12. I absolutely love my MC-12, and wouldn't change it for the world. That being said, I had no problem recommending the 950 enthusiastically to Nostaliga, since I know that for his purposes, the 950 was more than sufficient, and a lot less expensive.

Jeff

Well put, Jeff. That's the heart of the matter. Sonically, the 950 gave me very good performance. The only area that was a bit lacking had to do with some convenience issues as I've noted previously in this thread. My installation is a fairly standard one. There are no weird angles in my room and very little that has to be "tuned" to accommodate the space. True, my MC-8 has parameters to allow for speaker delay, etc., etc. and most of those go unused. But when I decided to treat myself to a MC-8 for my birthday (old guys get to do that, sometimes ) I probably went from 95% sonic satisfaction to 99% sonic satisfaction. (I would have said "100%" but I like to leave my options open for future enhancements. Certainly, the MC-8 is perfect for my forseeable needs right now.)

Not everyone can afford to drop $6000 on a pre/pro and the 950, at $799 (or less in a combo package) brings a very similar sound to the affordable level. And at that price it just about reaches the level of disposable hardware so all the competing products that still cost at least a bit more than a 950 while offering some type of "upgradability" really don't offer an advantage in this regard. As some others have stated, you can keep the 950 until the "960" comes out and then just move on to the next level of features. (As an aside, the various support and upgrades that Outlaw has offered on the evolving 950 - less hiss, new chip, etc. - is service "above and beyond" in my book. Kudos to Outlaw for that.)

------------------
RAF

My HT (latest update 07/27/03)
Now includes my Runco CL-710 DLP FP
and Lexicon MC-8

[This message has been edited by Robert A Fowkes (edited August 27, 2003).]

Actually just to balance the equation a little more, Outlaw's customer service kicks butt all over Lexicon.

There is a small but nagging issue for a small percentage of MC-8/MC-12 owners. If you set the display brightness to anything other than 100%, it buzzes. For example, at 50%, I can hear the buzz at my listening position, about 8 ft away. If I set it to 25 or 75%, the distance of audibility drops to an acceptable 2 ft. (I have mine at 75% now, even though I'd prefer 50%.)

So far, here is Lexicon's official response:

http://www.lexicon.com/kbase/answer.asp?qid=3535

I was OK with this for a while. But I have personally decided that for $6k list, this is unacceptable. So I'm trying to see what Lexicon will do for me behind the scenes.

We all *know* what Outlaw would do... I would have a replacement unit to try within days to compare to the original. (There is a known variation among Lexicon pre/pros in that only a few people have noted this.)

So it will be curious now that I have escalated this a little, to see what happens...

I own an Acura MDX. What you state is not much different than the impression one gets with Lexus vs. Acura.
Acura is the luxury arm of Honda but you would never know it by the way most dealers treat their customers.
In fact many of us (acuramdx.org) go to Honda for routine service for less bucks for the same mediocre service.
It is interesting how uneven customer service can be for products touted as superior.

Kevin,

I don't think it's fair comparing Outlaw support to Lexicon's: their sales and support model is completely different. I think that Lexicon gives absolutely outstanding direct support considering that they're dealer-based.

Jeff


[This message has been edited by D'Arbignal (edited August 30, 2003).]

Kevin,
I too have pursued a "fix" for this noise. I don't understand why this issue which seems small will not be addressed by Lexicon. I had not read the Knowledge Base from Lexicon on this topic. It pre-dates my efforts to resolve this problem. Perhaps that's why I've received the "cold shoulder" from Lex. They don't feel it's an issue. I've called them a few times and they said they'd get back to me. It's been over a month and I have heard nothing. There's two threads in the SMR forum that go into this in depth.

Chulona

[This message has been edited by chulona (edited August 28, 2003).]

Dealing with Outlaw regarding any sort of problem you might have or think you have has certainly spoiled me.

Any other purchases I've made, from a car to a toaster oven, causes me to pray I don't have to deal with customer service for any reason. OTOH, it has been such a pleasure to deal with the Outlaws in any capacity, and bears repeating here.

RAF, I just spent a good deal of time reading every part of your excellent site. It made me want to buy stuff. Hats off for a monumental effort that benefits all who enter.

Chulona- SMR was how I put 2 and 2 together in terms of my "buzz". I did get an email from them today suggesting the fix was to run the display at 100%. That's a band aid. I kindly asked back, what if I want to send it back to see if they could fix it? Oh, my dealer is in Massachusetts, I am in CA, so I don't think it makes any sense to try and go through him.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited August 30, 2003).]