Hello all you Outlaws,

Newbie here with questions about the dialog performance of the 950.

I have an aging Pioneer Reciever (D906S)that needs replacing bad. I also have 2 amps a Rotel Rb976 & A Mcintosh MC7100. My Speakers are either Complete Klipsch Ref3 set-up or Complete JBL Northridge Set-up. Stepping up to a good AV Preamp is the logical next step for me, I know. The Outlaw 950 is right down my alley (Budget & Spec wise).


Thing I need to know is how does it perform on Dialog? With the set-up I have now Dialog always seems to get lost amoung the heavy action scense. On the quieter passages I have to turn the volume way up to understand what the hell is going on then down when the Boom drops. I was wondering if you guys ever expeirence this with you 950's?


Any and all comments welcome,
Thanks
2B

2B -- I have not had any trouble with dialog on my 950 (which is paired with a Model 750 amp and Paradigm Reference speakers).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

No such problems at at all. When properly calibrated, all channels come through quite clear and crisp. And then there are the new surround standards that the D906S does not have DTS, Cirus Surround, Dolby Pro Logic II (sweet when listening to stereo television broadcast), etc... It makes for a great upgrade. Since you already have the amps, this processor is a definite good way to go.

Thanks for the response guys....

Oaf: Yes I am aware of all the latest advances in Technology, Thanks Again.

The thing I really needed to know was If after getting the 950 could I finally put My remote down and just enjoy the show. No More Darn Up Down, Up Down???? The only time I wanta touch that remote is to pause for bathroom breaks.

2B

When properly calibrated

Dialogue is great through the 950, (my favorite descriptive word for the unit = transparent)
Calibration is very important for separates. (I've found it to be more so than with receivers for some strange reason) When I received my first 950 I was running Def Techs CP100’s with matching center, When I added my Beethoven mains I ran the Def Tech center for a week till I broke down and ordered the matching VA Maestro. The Maestro was noticeably difficult to distinguish quieter Dialogue before calibration compared to the ‘shriller’ DT center. Dramatic difference on the night my shipment came in and I picked it up, - my husband stopped a movie to switch the centers out …but the kids being in the middle of a BB rental, they howled over me calibrating. (They don’t care they just turn dB up for everything!)

Bugged the heck out of me till I could get the meter on it.

Calibration makes such a difference not only on your soundstage, but dealing with issues like too forward/ or muffled dialogue through center and mains. This does not avoid the director (or sound mixer) who like to have you leaning forward in your seat for a whispered conversation between two characters (b vary vary qyiet!) (just before the bomb goes off and hits your sub!)

But yes I find Dialogue very well translated, very clean (after Calibrating for speakers) through the 950.

Thank you SL Lena.....

Unlike the others here I do have a problem, although I don't think it has anything to do with the 950 since it also occurred with my replaced Denon AVR3300 receiver. On DD broadcast TV or some DD/DTS DVD's my center channel dialog is often muddled by the L/R tracks and general background sound. I'm not talking about action scenes where it's often expected. My speakers are calibrated.

I've read about this anomaly on other venues, especially the AVS forum. To better understand dialog I often toggle to PLII-M mode. A solution also utilized by Jim Fosgate.

I also experience instances where the center channel dialog is not as loud as it should be, and this happens mostly in the matrixed modes. I know this has nothing to do with the 950, and I do know how the center channel is supposed to sound, being present at the mix of a couple films that I have this problem with. I'm afraid there are simply too many variables; surround modes, competing encoding schemes and processing options etc., that problems like this are to be expected.

Calibration makes such a difference! (if you have never) in seamless sound and can (depending on CC dB setting in relation to the rest of your channels really reduce the severity of that problem.) But (whoops) as G and SH pointed out, it won’t help on certain discs and Broadcasts.

If after getting the 950 could I finally put My remote down and just enjoy the show. No More Darn Up Down, Up Down????

When what SH and G are referring to is going on..
There is a trick to try, which can sometime have a net positive. Ever watched a WHOLE movie when the volume is just muffled by everything else? Try bumping up your center channel trim for that particular time period you have the problem (just note your original setting to go back to.) This can in certain scenarios reduce how much volume <> manipulation you have to apply.

Will not always work, depending on what else (besides dialogue) is recorded in the CC. Since your just increasing the volume of the CC in relation to your other speakers, can’t help much if what’s muffling your dialogue is duplicated in your CC. When all of it isn’t’ this can help reduce the issue so that dialogue rises to a clearer level.

Just something which has worked for me occasionaly!

Just what you want to read, another Outlaw stating what everyone just wrote. You can't do much about software issues, but if you are noticing this dialogue "problem" with almost every dvd, then you do have an issue. I find the 950 is very transparent compared with my H/K when it comes to dialogue. Have seldom ever wished to increase the center channel trim, however my dvd player has an optional "dialogue enhancer" feature just for this type of situation, (though I have never used it). I think you will be very surprised how well the 950 processes your surround sound. If it is still "muddy" after calibration, then you may have a center speaker issue. Keep us posted.

That may just be with certin software titles all.....I guess everyone expirence this at one point or another, regardless of the $ amount of their gear.

I've been thru 5 different set-ups (Recievers & Speakers) over the last(9)years. The Highest quality Center would have to be my Klipsch RC3II, My JBL Ncenter coming in at second (both have this problem). The Other speaker aren't even worth mentioning. But, One and I know I'll get Flammed for this.....and I don't care....The Original Bose Lifestyle 12 set-up we had. It never had problems with dialouge. I later sold it cause found many of the complaints that People have about Bose to be true (bass shy, crappy music playback etc etc....and Then The 12 didn't have that "NEW Standard AC-3 Digital" that was due out.

Anyway I think I have two pretty decent center channels. That's why I was starting to look at upgrades. One Company I've Read That does really well in this area, would be Yamaha New Line Of Recievers. They have that eq or center level thingy going on. I've also read that their electronics are actually set-up to produce dialouge better for there language over there in Japan..yada yada et....

I still may order the 950 regardless. As Oaf pointed out there are a ton of new features out since my Pioneer was created. Gotta figure which is more important to me right now a 2ch pre or AV pre.


Thanks for all the comments,
2B

I know I'll get Flammed for this Not here, and I would not dare, after all do not the least and greatest of us often have Bose in the woodpile.

Just kidding I’m all for those who love whatever their system may be. There are many paths and so few lifetimes to explore audio

You bring up a titillating point, maybe SH and the like (professionals) would have some thoughts on the topic. Could it be that your experience with the “Bose Lifestyle” Vs 4 other front ends due to limited frequency response does not ‘pass through’ enough fullness of range from recordings that can muddy dialogue? (And tentatively here) at times HTIB like “Acoustimass” avoids issues of badly uncomplimentary paired speakers, timber-matched speakers, and other interactions, which might need tweaking for optional performance? (Although I’m not too sure if an “acoustimass” set of speakers could be considered timber matched in the strictest sense of the word…just……like unto each other )

I think I understand what your worries are, and what you are trying to inquire into, - and would highly recommend the 950, which handles dialogue beautifully and believe me when I state, very often those who HEAR what the 950 passes through, and what new life it breaths into old collections feel amply repaid, for any occasional tweak on choice of SM, CC Trim, or for the few problem disc/feeds and issues to overcome.

I know I much prefer it over Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Pioneers etc I have heard. I’d give it a demo and see what you think.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited June 18, 2003).]

The only DVD I ever had a problem with hearing the dialog, and I know others did too no matter what the pre/pro or receiver was, was Star Wars Epsiode 1. I'm still convinced there was some problem in the mastering. I bought it when it came out, but I don't know if there ever was a "rev 2" version.

Regarding calibration, just purchased Ovation's home theater set up dvd. The test signals for the three front channels match the 950's test tone, but are significantly different for the surrounds and backs. The 950's test tones are higher for the surrounds and back than the Ovation's. So which do you recommend I use, the settings based on the Ovation dvd or the 950's test tones? Gotta know, just can't stop tweaking.

I would use the DVD's tones, since this is the source you'll actually be using. You might also want to check out this thread on an alternate, more accurate method of calibration:

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000042.html

Soundhound, thanks for the link. I remembering reading it but could't find it. Just finished re-calibrating my system using your advice. Still messing around with the sub's trim. Never really had a center channel "muddiness" like the original post, but was surprised how different the two types of test tones were in calibration. And with so many responses about calibrations I thought maybe this could help the original poster and improve my set up. Thanks again!

Well, I compared the 950's test tones with Avia, and I didn't find any channel that was different by more than 2 dBs. I'm personally not that familiar with the Ovation disk...

Kevin:

2db can be quite a bit when you are taliking about the imaging between speakers. I find that mis-calibration of less than 1db is obvious in my system, although admittedly it is used for mixing, so it's more critical that it be calibrated as closely as possible. Overall, I would consider fine-tuning by 2db quite useful! If all your speakers were perfectly flat throughout the full bandwidth, the test tone from the 950 and full bandwidth pink noise would yield the same trim settings. Since no speaker is in fact perfectly flat, it makes sense to exercise and take into consideration as much of their bandwidth as possible, rather than a narrow-band "snapshot" when doing a calibration. This is why professional users do it this way.

Yes Kevin, the difference for the surrounds was off by 2db, the 950 was higher than the test disc. The difference between my fronts and surround is quite apparent and ears can definately hear this difference of 2db. The reason I originally asked the calibration question was to set my system up the way the software manufactures intended their dvds to be reproduced. However, since using the disc's tones for calibration I can tell a difference but not sure if I like it. Things I use to hear in the background on LOR, for example, have gone from occasionally focused to dispersed with just this 2db decrease. Is this the way it was meant to be heard? I just don't know yet, have to get use to hearing my movies like this for a while. On a side note, could the original question of this thread about the dialogue sounding muffled be from either setting the system with too much bass turned up or having the sub turned up too high? I ask this because when I was re-calibrating my system I saved the sub for last and discovered that with it set too high the dialogue was indeed more difficult to hear. Just a thought.

Yeah, but my 2 dB wasn't limited to the rears or surrounds, and was more randomly distributed within my system. It was a range of 2 dB, but think of it as more like +/- 1 dB.

One way to tell if the sub is interferring with dialog would be to turn it off and see if you can hear the center better.

Generally I have found that the surrounds and subwoofer channels are too loud in almost all consumer's systems I have heard, relative to what I generally hear on a mixing stage. This does not mean that you shouldn't adjust your surrounds to your liking however! The subwoofer especially is actually relatively mild sounding when a film is mixed. That doesn't stop me from cranking my subs (4 18" ones!) when I want to have fun at home!

It's funny, after all this extensive re-calibrating, I'm not impressed with the results. I have only lived with it for three days but plan on returning to the 950's test tone for calibration. Why? The scene in TWISTER where the boat flies at you and then over your head now sound like the boat flies at your and disappears over your head. The rain in JURASSIC park no longer sounds like it is falling on top of the Jeep, (with the previous settings you could almost smell the wet canvas). And in LOR I no longer feel like I am surrounded in the woods. The meter may tell me all channels are set equally using the test dvd, but the actual result is poor. But, this is the fun of having so much flexibility, you can tweak to your heart's desire.

Yes, while you are probably more "technically" well calibrated, you are missing some of the surround level you previously had. Personally, I would simply bump up all the surrounds by 3db in the trim menu. In the end, it's what you like hearing!

Between the Avia DVD test tones and the 950's internal test tone I had about a 2dB difference on my center channel, with the Avia reading lower. I went with the Avia tone and bumped up my cc. The mains are Paradigm Mini-Monitor v2's while the cc is a CC-370.