I have enjoyed my 950 after a very long wait as many had to endure.. I , for one, find the price drop a "slap in the face". I think the Outlaws should have offered a merchandise credit, or something. Manufactureres have every right to lower there prices, but this was different in that we had to wait so long and even had to put our neme and CC number down because they are offering this product at an intro price of $899. I now , as much as I want the PSA cables will have to think hard about this. I believe this kind of marketing hurts a company more than it helps!

How long have you had your 950 Everett? How long is a company supposed to wait to drop a price on a product?
If you bought within the 30 days what are you worried about? Give them a call.
If not, why should they make an exception for you?
What is your comfort threshold? Want them to raise the price so you can feel better?
Guess I don't understand why this so different than any other merchanidse.

Everett, I am having a hard time understanding you? Think about this, you have owned the 950 for almost 300 days and now you want a price match? You know that isn't reasonable, even under the circumstances of the 950's release. The Outlaws just can't give us stuff for being loyal (they actually do with the family discount) as much as I would like that too. Your posts are usually insightful or, at very least, rational, but I really think you need to rethink your position on this. Sorry if this came off the wrong way.

Jed M: Whats not to understand.. they lied to us. "reserve your 950 now before the prices go up" I was on the list and waited about 9 months I recall/gave them my CC number etc... I dont fault others for buying this at $799, but those who waited so long, hiss problems etc. then, well we didnt mean it.. lets drop the price $100. Not good..I dont get upset with Toshiba for selling the 65HX81 for less than I paid.. but they did not make such a deal out of urgency to buy to lock in a price. Maybe Ill buy a couple of mono amps to go with my ATI2505. But, to me, this company rubs me the wrong way.....

Everett, where did they say prices were going to go up? Can you post a link because I never saw it?

I can understand your concern, but Toshiba a long established company, and has very entrenched policies. But they do bend. In fact refunded me $300 for a 2 month out-of-warranty complaint, because I thought it was unreasonable for soemthing to go out that soon...sorry, I digress..
the world of audiophile equipment is much different than a large based consumer electronics manufacturer.
Maybe Outlaw did not project the response to their new product would be as good as it was. And they worked with the customers to take care of the hiss problem, etc.
They were also very generous with 30 day customers on the price drop for the 950, and have continually offered deals on multi-item purchases as well as the 'family' discount.
I find it hard to hold one misjudgement on their part against them, or see it as a blemish against a company that produces quality products at a very reasonable price.
You have to look at whole picture, and sure there will be scenarios where your particular situation offers no big advantage for the time you put in. But it is your money, and how you spend it is entirely up to you.
I would imagine Outlaw may back off on reserving orders for new equipment in the future, if it does lead to customer complaints.
I have never been one to jump on the bandwagon anyway, prefer to wait for new models to be proven on the test track of other users first. "You pays your monies, and makes your choices......."

Everett!

The deal was NOT reserving your 950 before price goes up. It was …..reserve at THIS price including the potentialy non-calculable effects 'demand' due to the ‘talk’ on the web, might have on the product…with limited early initial rollout which affects most new production lines. Your wait had the potential for being excessive, - if you did not get on the list earlier than later.

The whole “Hiss” deal cost me about 5 min of real time. (Or it least it felt like)…… I WASTED a lot of time on the forums about it, only because the topic of Outlaw was my down /leisure/ play - time of the moment.

In reality ……I had three 950’s shipped here …purchased 2 of them. Had sound going ALL the time, after the arrival of the first unit. Outlaw spoiled the heck out me!!!. Made the whole process SO MUCH EASIER than standing in the 32-person length line to return/exchange a defective unit at my local mega “Frys” storefront. The service per customer time averaging 6 to 20 mins, standing there has always been slower than oil paint drying. The last time I heave ho’d a computer monitor into “Best Buy” , they lost it and it took 3 months to get it back.

Outlaw (god they trust us all…course they have that little credit card # hanging over me, - if you DONT send it back). Tells me on the phone they are SO SORRY for the inconvenience. When I offer to pack up the first unit and ship it back …the reply is NO NO NO, just wait….we will get you a NEW unit out (imediatly)….THEN make arraignments for you to return the first unit.

If Outlaw would sell every item that could feasibly break in my household. HAVAC, appliances….My life would be bliss……..compared to some of the “fixes…return…repair…” scenario’s I deal with now!

Goofy me, (not because I had chosen it, - as best choice for me, - but just because IT was available) I almost got SO tired of waiting on my new pre-pro, 3 times I came this (-) close to plopping down (it was 2k or 3K? top retail) for a recently launched HK8000, and separate amp, - Just because it was sitting on a shelf RIGHT in front of me every time I walked in that store. (I’m an INSTANT GRAD type personality) Any returns or issues at this location would have involved….don’t have another new box unit….past 30 days, - gotta ship it back, and wait, and wait and wait. (Gee can’t believe they don’t run the equivalent of a loaner problem ..that Outlaw version of fixes gave me, HERE HAVE TWO UNITS SO YOU”ll only be down the cable swap time).

By the time I finally received my delayed Outlaw, I could have picked up the HK8000 for 1K less, - street!. Would I have felt bad. NO.
For it was part of the PLAN, I knew that most Super Receivers drop dramatically in price in under 12 to 24 months.

Depreciation, is the name of the game on most purchases. You buy what you like for the money you have available at the time. AND relax with your new sound/video, Your return is in enjoyment NEVER dollars.

I would not have felt (bad) about the HK8000 (in a pinch purchase) because I would have done it full realizing what was coming down the pike. I EXPECTED a big hit. Oh dear, my bargain Outlaw dropped a whole 100 dollars. What a depreciation.. (12 ½ % after owing it 2 years) Where as the HK during (just) the time I was waiting on the 950 reserve list (5 months -with the production delays), dropped almost 50%!.

I am looking to purchase (maybe) right now a Dell 8500. Am I aware that its been out a bit, and that the new flagship is on the horizon (rumored 8550 or 9500 or some such). And that right now I will still spend TOP DOLLAR for the Dell with the WUXGA Wide aspect.07 fine pitch screen, and that at the cycle point (on this model), when the new flagship launches I will start seeing greater promo’ and reductions on the (old) 8500. Additionally (it’s a laptop) easy to spen 4K today with a street worth of about 1K on it in possible 12 months!

Yes , I'll prob. do it anyway …because I (need) it now. But at least I know what WILL happen and will not be a bit surprised to see it come.

I paid SO MUCH less than several receiver/separates choices I evaluated during my purchase decision time (so kindly stretched out by Outlaw’s production delays that I REALLY had time to sort the choices out )

I DID GOOD! Sorry you feel regretful (Vs my over-joyed satisfaction).

Don’t mind the overlong spouty post…..she is stressed right now…and when she’s stressed ….she gets MEAN!

This Was a attempt to kiss the sting of that slap you received….hope it helps …to remind you that this purchase is subject to the same foibles as ANY OTHER we make…..with the difference …Outlaw treats their customers better during the process of these ups and downs than almost any other I can name.

JMLife


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited June 15, 2003).]

Hello Again: Im not going to repond again but will say this: I stood behind Outlaw despite all those early problems and went tho there defense against those wishing for them to rush production..repeatedly saying ..get it right..I will wait. Many of those who jumped on the Outlaw bandwagan have done so recently, some admitedly have never even purchased there products. But, I dont like being lied to...there is NO GRAY MATTER. Its either the truth or not. Its been over a year, but, even at 53years old, my memory is good enough to remember I received a Email, long sence deleted, that said that I needed to give them a CC # to insure that I get the unit at $899 before prices go up..I did and, like many others , I waited and waited until my time came. I dont blame, as I said, others who just got one at $799.. I feel, however, if Outlaw should offer something to us(and theres a lot of us) that was on that long list that paid the full price. Heck! I would settle for $100 of free shipping for future purchases. I cant compain about the enjoyment ive received this past year with by 950..I just expected a company that depends so much on word of mouth and service , to make a BETTER EFFORT to care for there customers. What is so wrong with that? Can others not see this? Is it wrong for someone to feel this way? I dont think so..didnt someone mention that Outlaw dod some form of merchdise credit on the 1050 before.. I , frankly, am dissappointed with them for not doing the same here..I expected it.... As Kevin has said, " I would raise the price $100 " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps it is the following you are referring to. It is a clever piece of "marketeering", an example of "...what would you pay...", but I do not think is says "order now because the price will go up." In fact, I think it is much the opposite.

If you are put off by Outlaw's marketing methods, vote with your dollars. I think everyone wants to buy from a viable company. There are a lot of good companies with great products that don't make it because of poor marketing. Outlaw can be a little "pocket fisherman" at times, but I think there is an important difference in that they deliver an excellent value for your dollar.

Excerpt from the Jan 2002 news letter:

We have to admit we're amused by all the speculation about future pricing on the Model 950. When we first announced the "Introductory" price we used that phrasing to protect ourselves in case we found that the cost of the final unit would be such that we might have to raise prices after a few months. While anything is possible, we do not see any major pending price increase, and in any case we will honor the $899 price for everyone who places their name on the reservations list. That's all. As to some of the speculation about our pricing plans where some people say a major increase is coming, we find that hilarious. It's nice to know that some of you think that people would pay over $1,000, and its performance will certainly justify a multiple of that price, but it has always been the Outlaw way to deliver value far in excess of the retail price of our products."

In spite of reading all of the above posts and the reasoning with them, I just can not understand the dissatisfaction with Outlaw in regards to their lowering of the price of the 950. Maybe I am not the kind of person who will resent someone else's good fortune.

Those who begrudge Outlaw for the delay and teething pains in regards to the 950 BEFORE the price reduction are at least consistent when they continue to have negative feelings after the price reduction. Those who were not dissatisfied prior to the price reduction and who now are dissatifsied after the price reduction because of the price reduction (regardless of past issues rekindled) have no sympathy from me.

As is the case with technology items, the price of existing technology decreases, or, for the same amount of money, you get more.

I bought a computer box back in 1989 for about $1.2k. Just the case, cpu, memory, power supply and hard drive. It had an Intel 486 50MHz (not a dx2, it had a 50MHz memory bus), the fastest available at the time. The cpu alone cost $700. The little shop I bought it from in Palo Alto, CA was really lacking in technical skill. After the delivery date came and went, I went in and showed them how to configure it properly.

A few weeks later, the 66MHz 486 came out, and came out for less money than the 50MHz version. I did NOT expect an accomodation on my recent purchase in spite of the poor service this company gave. I understand that when I took delivery of my purchase for the agreed upon price, that was that. I still had my 50MHz 486 based system and it still worked fine for many years.

When Outlaw first announced the 950, the may have had a general idea of what the selling price may be, even though the 950 itself may not have been finalized. They do not know what they will need to charge a year or more down the road. Many compontents that are technology driven, such as DSPs, logic, CPUs, and such are initially priced based on recouping the R&D costs, not the cost of manufacure.

Other components, whose R&D costs have been recovered long ago, such as resistors and capacitors, transformers, diodes and such are priced based more on the cost of manufacture (or what the market will bear).

In the case for all components, the price will be affected by what the competition is offering and charging for it.

In the case of the 950, once the cost of R&D, of the tooling and setup charges for manufacture, have all been recouped and if the costs of the components, licenceing fees, actual manufacturing costs will allow, the price to the customer might be lowered.

I am glad that Outlaw has lowered the price of the 950. I hope that their cost for the 950 has went down by a similar or more amount because companies need to make money to stay in business to bring us new and ever more wonederful products.

Paul

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the 1derful1

[This message has been edited by Paul J. Stiles (edited June 15, 2003).]