I just saw a pic from the Home Entertainment 2003 show showing an Outlaw banner for the 950. The interesting part was the price was reduced from $899 to $799. I see on the Outlaw “place order” page it is also listed as $799. When did this happen?

Another shot of the Outlaw display shows a very un-Outlaw “silver” box with “Scott”, I believe, stroking it. Anybody know what this might be? The RR2150? A replacement for the 950 or the 1050?

Answered my own question....It's the RR2150.

Did I miss e-mail?


[This message has been edited by Xyzfla (edited June 07, 2003).]

Yes, the 950 is now $799. (Personally? I would have *increased* the price. )

The silver one is the RR2150. A mockup. Near as I can figure, a stereo receiver with analog BM!

Got to meet Peter Tribeman and Scott Jackson for way too short a time. Very nice guys.

Did I mention the Outlaw sub they had there? They only pointed to it. No time for info. Hopefully I'm not letting any cats outta the bag...

All of us fence sitters are going to be heating up the phone lines this week. Should be an interseting week. A price decrease almost always means a new model is at least on the drawing board.

Price drops like this usually mean sales aren't that good. What this does is reduce the resale value of those of us that forked over $899 a few short weeks ago.

Mike

Mike -- Price drop in the past for Outlaw (the 1050) has meant that they've gotten production volumes up to a point where they can reduce the price. Rather than an indicator of poor sales, it may be an indicator of good sales.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk, yes that is the other side of the coin. If that is the case, and sales are so great, then there should be a retroactive rebate of some sort to those of us that made the price drop possible. I bought my 950 in March and less than 60 days later it's $100 cheaper? I personally feel sales aren't what they expected. Not that it's a bad product but the economy is preventing alot of people from buying big ticket items...hence the price drop. IMO

Mike

Ooops, should have said less than 90 days but my point is still valid.

Mike

...90 days? I'm still in my 30 day trial period.

I've owned mine for under 400 days. Can't we all just get a check for 100 bucks from Outlaw? And when I say all, I mean everybody, not just 950 owners.

I am in the fourth day of my 30 day trial with 950/7100 and thinking about returning on principal. Many stores let you know a sale is coming when you talk to them about a product or have a 30 day grace period if the price drops. When I called Outlaw before my purchase they made no mention of the upcoming sale. Ugh!

I agree with you, “Raider”. But I paid $74 for shipping to me and I guess shipping from me will be another $74. Add this to the fact that I sold my 1050 which means I will have to buy something else. Agggghhh.

I see the 7 pack of cables has been reduced by more than 50% from $99.95 to $49 with pre/amp purchase. Another, Aggghhh.

At least I didn’t buy Krell. They just reduced some HT products by $2,000.00 to $3,000.00. Well, they call it a trade in discount.

This looks to me like the result of a soft market. I believe Adcom also has some “promotion” going on. Sunfire seems to have lots of B-stock available. Tweeter Inc. just hired some genius from Best Buy to try to stem the decline in same store sales. Etc etc.

By the way is Outlaw or its parent a publicly traded company?

Just an FYI.

There is no real reason why anyone should be upset at any price drop. I hardly doubt Outlaw wanted to screw anyone over ( BTW I have yet to purchase any products from Outlaw, but they are a brand I am looking at )

Life is like that folks, I worked in the electronics industry for 5 years and price drops of such are common place. Look at those who bought Playstation 2 for $300 USD and then a $100 USD price drop came. We are talking about electronics and they almost always drop in price over time. There are generally two reasons for this.

1: Market share has been reached and a price reduction will allow the company to keep moving product. Not a bad thing even for those who paid a higher price as you generally have had more time to enjoy the unit while others have yet to enjoy such.

2: The industry moves forward and new products come out or are coming out by all manufacturers and the compnay wants to sell through so it is not left with a wharehouse of higher priced less competitive products.

Personally I believe Outlaw should have dropped the price of the 1050 but $50-$100USD only because the market is now saturated with 6.1 and 7.1 receivers. The 1050 is still a superlative H/T receiver but its edge in pricing has all but gone.

The 950 is still on the leading edge but obviously Outlaw wants to sell through the 950 to keep its market share. Remember for most Outlaw owners ( or any higher quality brand ) ownership generally brings you brand loyalty. Outlaw has made obviously good profit ( not a bad thing ) on the 950 and now wants to saturate its market segement, hopefully bringing it more loyal customers.

As for those who feel slighted... DON'T this is life in a socalled free market. Everyday in life we see price fluctuations. If the price whent up by $100USD you would feel like you made out like a bandit ( OUTLAW TALK ..LOL) But what if Outlaw said to you "Hey we know you just bought your 950 for $899 a month ago etc. but can we bill your credit card an extra $100 bucks because the price went up?" What would you tell Outlaw to do? Yes, we know your answer. So why should Outlaw who even at $899 are offering you a great product ( or you would not have bought it ) give you $100 back? There is no reason for them to do so. It's business and they are not screwing you around ( NO!I DON'T WORK FOR THEM! ... LOL )

Look at it this way as Outlaw sells through product, it will be able to bring new products at still good prices in the future and your next purchase from them might be a better and/or cheaper product for what it may offer you and that folks can't be too bad!

[This message has been edited by Time_Stands_Still (edited June 08, 2003).]

If I was in my 30 trial period the thing would be on the next UPS truck. I bought into Outlaw because I thought they were a different company. They haven't won any loyalty from me with this move.

Mike

I am in the middle of the road on this debate, I bought mine on 6/02! But already got a $50 discount as a previous customer.
I think this pre/pro is great and am not about to ship it back out of spite. Prices change all the time, technology has passed you by the time you purchase anything.
If I was outside of the 30 day period I would just write it off. In all fairness where do they draw the line, 30 days, 60 days, or based it on who's the most pissed off?
But if they are willing to show some good will by sending a pair of cables, etc. for the exta 50 bucks, I would be happy.

[This message has been edited by DaleB (edited June 08, 2003).]

Mike.

How else could they have done so? I mean a price change is a price change. How could anyone expect it to be done?

If you buy into a product at its listed price, you have accepted it for what it was worth. The fact that a few weeks later it dropped in price is moot. My point still stands, if the price went up by $100 within 30 days then by your logic could Outlaw ( or anyone ) not demand to charge your credit card an extra $100? What would be the difference? I am sure had it been this way, those who bought it at $899 would say. " That's too bad Outlaw you agreed to sell it to me for $899." So why should it be reversed at a lower price?

The price of gas for our cars can go up or down in price daily. If you bought your gas for say $1.50 gallon and the next day it was $1.40 a gallon, would you scream for the difference back?

Sorry but I hear that we live in ( sort of ) the free market world, and with free markets comes the right to raise or lower prices as need be. When one buys say the 950 at $899. That day they got it for the best price they could. If tommorrow or a week later it drops in price, well is nobodys fault but a snapshot at this socalled wonderful free market all too many people CHEER about!

Look I am not trying to be a jerk, but I know that pricing is a subjective thing and something that remains in FLUX, If you buy the 950 at $899 it was obviously a good enough deal for you to do so. The fact that at a later date one could get it for $799 really does not matter and should have NO impact on loyalty. Outlaw is a business like any other. It needs to sell through stock and make a buck or two to survive. Charity need not apply in business. Early adopters always pay the most for the privilage to be the first on the block owners of anything.

Just my added 2cents.

P.S. It would be Outlaw's PRIVILEGE to price protect anyone within the 30 trial period. It may be a wise thing for them to do so if only to keep any hassle of possible returns to a min. But it is not a customers right to demand such. Remember though even if they were to do such a nice corporate thing, what of the guy who is 31 or 32 days past, now they are pissed off. Where does it stop then?


PLEASE NOBODY BITE MY HEAD OFF OK?

[This message has been edited by Time_Stands_Still (edited June 08, 2003).]

And my Mac Dual G4 450s should still be worth the $2500 I payed for it new!!!

I'm sorry here folks, but if you bought your 950 beyond 30 days ago, Outlaw doesn't owe you a penny. Technology changes and so do prices.

I do think the 1050 could use a price lowering too. I may smart about that a little but I would still recommend it to everybody looking for a receiver in that price range.

I am writing mine off, but if Outlaw has any sense of fairness they will give the guys who bought it less than 30 days ago a price break. If I bought a car today and a couple of days later was being sold for 11% cheaper you'd be damn sure I'd be at the dealer asap.
The same goes for a computer. The fact is business will screw you any time they have the opportunity. I'll say it again, I thought Outlaw was a different kind of company... I expect better than the norm.

Mike

Outlaw is not a leopard that changes it's spots at a moment's notice, it a manufacturer of quality audio compenents.

To even equate a price drop with a generalization of busineses always being out to rip off customers I feel is totally unfair.
True, something like a 30 day price guarantee would be good, or throwing in more 'stuff' so you don't feel you are being slighted. But if they didn't, does that lower the quality of the product they produce? Not hardly, and they could fix the price at $899 and you would go merrily along your way thinking you were getting the same value today you did last year.
Nobody is telling you how to spend your money, so stop acting like you are getting what you paid for at first, only to have the company come back and put the screws to you.
I am glad for the future buyers of this great pre/pro even if it is a lower price.



[This message has been edited by DaleB (edited June 08, 2003).]

I work for a company that sells retail to the public. People will buy if they feel price protected for say 30 days. A lot of people will not buy if they think there is a possibility the price may go down. Some retailers will guarantee their price for 30 days to keep sales flowing which seems to be reasonable. Outlaw can do whatever they want and I will do what I want but I will not lose sleep over the $150 bucks. Actually if I was one of the Outlaws I would give $$ credits toward future products. That lets them keep the revenue, insure some future purchases, and make some folks happy. Also, future purchasers will not be constantly delaying purchases thinking there might be a price decrease.
Will be interesting to see if the Outlaws will break some more rules. Are they like everyone else or do they want to develop brand loyalty?

$100 price drop = company screwing customers?

Wow, the old adage really is true: no good deed goes unpunished!

Sanjay

SanJay,

One of my favorite quotes. I always stump folks by asking them if they know who is credited with first using that phrase. Hint, it was a woman with a varied career that went from Broadway to Congress and was wife of a famous publisher. A very interesting lady.

Price drop: If you're in the 30 day window, I'd call them/email them. Maybe they'll work a deal with you. They are nice people after all!

Outside the 30 days? Gee, when did anyone here get any money back from Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, et al, when those companie shave dropped prices?

But someone did mention a 30 day price guarentee. Most individual stores do have that. I'd bug Outlaw. See what they say.

Duplicate

[This message has been edited by sdurani (edited June 09, 2003).]

Hillary?

OK, second guess: Clare Booth Luce?

Sanjay

Yeah what he said! Hey I bought a box of Cheerios last week from the supermarket for $3.50 and now they're on sale 2 for $5.00 I want my $1 back!!!

People, this is riduculous.

They already have a well publicized "family discount" program. This is how I got my 950 for $850 last December. Since I was a previous Outlaw customer I got a discount, and I assume I would get one on that sub (licking my lips).

------------------
Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited June 09, 2003).]

"Outlaw is not a leopard that changes it's spots at a moment's notice, it a manufacturer of quality audio compenents."

That's exactly what Outlaw did. It changed it's spots!
They droped the price without giving customers who bought in the past 30 days notice or the courtesy of offering them the new price. That is a lack of the "customer service" that they so loudly tout and may be an indication that Outlaw is hurting financially. They have that money in hand and probably need to get rid of excess inventory due to soft sales hence the price drop; not the corporate line they gave in the latest newsletter about production volumes. If you believe that I got a bridge to sell ya! Outlaw ain't moving that many 950's to drop the price $100 to benefit the customer. In fact the opposite is more likely true. They have too much product on hand that ain't been sold. As Xyzfla stated above, alot of the Biggies are offering huge discounts. Many of them, including Outlaw, may not survive the current economic downturn. How many people go out and buy Audio equipment without hearing it? Not many, and the only reason they do is
word of mouth and customer service which for Outlaw may be on the downward side of the curve with this move. Outlaw should step up to the plate and honor their new price to those who bought within the 30 day period.

OK, Outlaw lowered their price. Keep in mind that the 950 is rolling off the same line as the AT and Sherbourn clones and several other variants like the Fosgate. The core architecture of the 950 is in a lot of products, and manufacturing savings are hardly improbable in that case. They could have left the price at $899, but have decided to instead offer their customers an even better value. Shame on them?

Now, they announced the price drop over the weekend. It was at a trade show, a logical place to do so. As I've already indicated, I don't understand how we can condemn a company for lowering the price on a product. I also don't know how else they could go about announcing a price change. If they say that they'll lower the price next month, then they are stuck with no sales for 30 days while everybody waits for the price drop and they have people waiting impatiently and wondering why they can't go ahead and drop the price now -- and apparently people who bought one at some point in the past complaining. So they announce it and make it effective immediately, and avoid two of those three headaches. For those people still in the 30-day return period (xyzfla, raider), I do think it's worthwhile to investigate a refund.



Since we haven't actually asked them yet, it seems premature to complain about terrible business practices because of the chance that they will say "no" to xyzfla, raider, and others in the 30-day window. All we have right now is a price reduction. The horror. Find me something in the newsletter that says "Oh, and if you just bought a 950, tough luck -- we're not interested in discussing a rebate." It's not there. I just looked. Take a deep breath, relax, and let's wait a few days to see what happens.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Nice statement, Gonk. We probably are getting ahead of ourselves here.
Yes, Outlaw does rely on word of mouth as Mikehdtv suggests, but I doubt this particular situation is going to turn anybody away from a fine product, especially when it's cheaper.
If anyone feels they are being ripped off after buying a 950, or think the company is less than ethical, they should follow through on their convictions, and sell THEIR 950 FOR A LOWER PRICE, and never purchase anything from Outlaw again!

[This message has been edited by DaleB (edited June 09, 2003).]

QUOTE] Originally posted by Mikehdtv:

...a lack of the "customer service" that they so loudly tout and may be an indication that Outlaw is hurting financially... They have too much product on hand that ain't been sold... Outlaw, may not survive the current economic downturn...
[/QUOTE]

This sounds like the beginning of a ugly conspiracy theory. Outlaw drops the price of an item, and the company is out of cash. But after further consideration... these rumors of the Outlaws imminent demise are just what they don't want us to even dream about... the whole deck of cards might collapse right before our eyes. It's so obvious to me now... all the value, quality and customer service are just a desperate ruse. Outlaw is an economic gamble that, alas, was too good to be true.

Outlaw only shows prototypes at the HT 2003 Show, but where's the real product? They want us to believe they are growing, but in reality they can't afford to actually build real working equipment.

Tell me that the former Secretary of the Treasury James O'Neil is running the supply vs. demand models for the this bankrupt company, and I will believe it. Soon the Outlaws' faces will be appearing on decks of playing cards, and we will have to hunt them down because of the threat they pose to our national security.

Hi guys, I saw a thread at Hometheaterforum and then decided to surf by here to see what is being discussed.

Let me cut and paste my thoughts:


Let me interject my thoughts...

Ive known all the Outlaws since the inception of the company. I was a beta tester for the 950 and was scheduled to work the San Francisco show for them until my wife announced she was pregnant and due to deliver (she is now at 41.5 weeks and still holding on :-( ). I was even given the previledge of sitting in on a design meeting for the new retro receiver.

Outlaw Audio has a long history of consistantly going above and beyond for their customers. If you are within a 30 day window from your purchase give them an email or a phone call and discuss the issue with them. I am confident they will do whatever it takes to make you a satisfied customer.

Please remember that the email and the notification of the price drop occurred while the entire Outlaw crew was in San Francisco. GUYS...THEY ARE STILL OUT THERE!!! As with other trade shows, the employees will be packing up gear on Sunday evening and Monday AM then be returning home. I fully expect them to be in the office on Tuesday.

Im guessing the price drop is to stay competitive as new products hit the market. The 950 has always been a competitively priced product, and now for $799 there is nothing comparible to it, especially if you do a combo deal and get an amp and the interconnects!

Regards,

Gregg Loewen

AGAssarsson,

For some reason there are always some people out there who, for reasons known only to themselves, are bound and determined that Outlaw Audio is "out to rip them off" or "too good to be true" and that the rest of us are shills for being happy with our purchases. I have no idea why Outlaw seems to attract these sorts of people, but ... {sigh}


Xyzfla, Raider, Mikehdtv & the others concerned about the price,

As Gonk has said, so much more eloquently than I could, give the Outlaws a chance to respond before you castegate them. It doesn't matter when a new product or a price change is announced, there will always be someone who purchased the day before and would have waited or what not. They choose to make their announcement at a heavily attended show, good for them. Heck, have you even called (it's a toll free phone number) or written them about your concerns? Or did you just head for the first public site you could think of and start trying to "rip them a new one"?

The show was on the West coast and most of the Outlaws live on the East. Why not let them get home and reply to your concerns before convicting them?

I guess the society of "instance gratification" and the "they owe me" attitude have once again invaded the forums, eh?


------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Thats a good value, one wonders why anyone would spend nearly double on the Sherbourn or Atlantic Technology Clones???

I would be very interested to hear from Outlaw regarding recent purchases at the former price(s). My 950B/770 combo was ordered in early May, the order was acknowledged May 5, and shipped a few days after that.

There is not much point either speculating about the Outlaws policy in this situation, or becoming emotionally embroiled in it. I don't think it has ever come up before at Outlaw. We might as well see if there is an official response. (Are you there, Scott?)

Meanwhile I have no ill will toward the Outlaws. When prices were $100 higher, Outlaw gear was still one of the best values going. Of course I could use the $100 on other audio gear if the Outlaws wanted to be nice and offer a partial refund/rebate, or even a set of seven interconnects.

I simply can't believe this discussion is taking place. Damed if they do, damned if they don't! If anybody has an issue with a recently purchased 950, I would simply contact Outlaw and see how they will accommodate the price difference.

Please, get outside. Catch some sun and fresh air. Pet your dog. Kiss your significant other.

err ... I live in southern New England ... what is "sun"?

pat----

Don't feel bad, it's drizzling here in "sunny" southern CA now.

If you look at my original post I simply asked when the price changed. I first learned about it from a pic of an Outlaw banner at the Home Theater Show. I haven’t received an answer from the knowledgeable folk in the formum or from Outlaw (I e-mailed them twice). It only matters in that if it happened two weeks ago I could have contacted Outlaw sooner. I’m assuming the change coincided with the start of the show. But what does matter is my 30 trial is over Wednesday this week. So I have a decision to make. Will I keep the combo even though the list price has been dropped and I’m not wowed by it or will I return it and look elsewhere, unfortunately I sold my 1050. Also I would have bought the 7-pack wire deal at $49 whereas I didn’t at $99.95. Can I buy the $49 wire bundle after the fact but before my trial period expires or not? A simple question requiring a simple answer.

Outlaw will decide policy and I, as a customer of 1050, 200’s and now 950/7100, will decide to keep the combo or not. I don’t feel ripped off or cheated in any way. It’s simply a timing issue and a matter of company policy. Once I get my questions answered I’ll make my decision. End of story. Oh, yes, before this current issue came up I had decided to keep the combo, but it was a close decision. I’m a two channel stereo fan and I could have bought a new cartridge for $1,000 and happily lived with my 1050. The 2 channel & HT are different setups.

Prices change. But I was betting that the 1050 would be reduced/replaced soon, certainly before the 950, so I sold mine and bought a 950. So I was wrong. Of course that wasn’t the only factor in my 950-purchase decision but it was one of them.

I am outside, soundhound, with my computer at poolside. Significant other and dog to boot. But … under the lanai at the moment because of the drizzle. Yes, it even rains in the Sunshine State. I’d invite you all to go sailing on the Gulf but who wants to sail in the rain? Bummer!!!

Well, its sunny here in Vegas and like you XYZfla, I am heading out back to the pool to do some reading.

Outlaws, when you get back you can start to paypal me at jmcchesney@cox.net whenever you like; 24/7. No amount is considered too large or too small. All I ask is if you do over 10 transactions a day, please leave the cut for paypal also. Thanks.

Guys,

I just remembered what the Outlaws did when the 1050 receiver was reduced from 599 to 499, they offered a $100 rebate to all that had ordered the receiver within a 30 day window. There is no reason to think they would do otherwise with the 950 and its $100 price drop.

Keep the faith, and wait fro the Sherriff and the rest of the gang to return to ranch ?? (or is it the Saloon? Jail?).

Gregg

SanJay,

I gave you too many hints you got it. She was like Hillary but the exact opposite, both hated by the extremes on either side.

Obviously a lot of you have never run a business. If they had given a warning, who was going to pay the light bill and all these fine customer service people while you waited a month to buy? It is called cash flow ladies and gentlemen, if they had done this they would be out of business and then where would all of you be. As for refunds as far back as 400 days? Give me a break. They would go under. A start up manufacturing business competing against the big guys is already treading in deep water. Be thankful they are making an aggresive move to stay on top and put pressure on the competitors. In the long run every owner of Outlaw Products will benefit from them making this move.

Believe it! Worse than sad, it's petty (conspiracy theories and all). Sorry to be harsh, but I too can't believe some of the comments I'm reading in this thread.

Sanjay

Did you read the second part of my statement? I thought it would be fairly obvious it was dripping with sarcasm. Sorry for the confusion.

Harsh, but so very true.

Truth is Outlaw could end this discussion in a nanosecond and earn the good will of everyone and prove me wrong. Give back the hundred dollars to those that purchased 30 days ago or less! Outlaw should do the right thing! The ball is in their court!

Mike,

Please ... give them a chance to get home. From the newsletter that's set so many people off:



pat----

This is the 21st century. What, you think all the Banditos left the hideout without their laptops and cell phones! Heck you can be at basecamp on Everest and be in touch with your crew back home. And I'm sure no one is back home to take all the new $799 orders or resolve customer questions! Do you honestly think they didn't consider a 30 day price break before they put out a press release?

Mike

Conspiracy, I should say so. I think what is going on here is pretty obvious. The Outlaws need to get some price separation between the 950 and the next generation pre/pro. The RR2150 is just a mule for the new look of the new pre/pro. Remember, the Nimitz was snatched back before it could have any impact...

Go back 30 days? At that rate you could never have a price reduction what about the 30 days before that and the 30 days before that? Bummer? Yes! Unfair? No! That is part of life! No where on there site does it say anything about a price guarantee. You always have the right to return it in those 30 days. Otherwise you just have to live with it.



------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's
"Pain heals, Chicks dig scars and glory is forever"
From the mouth of Keanu Reeves one the great pundits of our time!

"Go back 30 days? At that rate you could never have a price reduction what about the 30 days before that and the 30 days before that?"

Huh? it's simple eh? Outlaw anounces a price drop. If ya bought it 30 days or less from the announcement you get the new price. Done all the time and if Outlaw shoots straight they will take care of their family and not just give customers BS sloagans but action.

Mike

Mike,

I think I'm the oldest member of the Outlaw family on this forum, I was one of the five original beta testers of the Model 1050 in May of 2000. I can honestly say that the Outlaws have been straight shooters since day one. Sure they've made mistakes (research the delayed launch of the Model 950 for an example), but they have always taken care of their customers.

pat----

Am I the only one that bought a computer only to see the price drop the next week. Did anyone buy a flat screen plasma last year for $5'000, now they are down to $1'999. My sexy digital camera was over $500 when it first came out. I bought it when the price dropped below $300, and six months later I saw it for $250. Sh&t flows downhill and so do technology prices.

PS: I bought my 950 & 770 a month before the price drop. I would like to have the extra $100 in my pocket, but I made the decision to buy and in the 30 days in between I've blasted the house with; Ice Age, The Matrix, The Fifth Element, Rumble in the Bronx, Star Trek Nemesis, Lord of the Rings & Cannonball Run.

PSS: I play the pass line. I get happy when I throw a 7 or 11 on the come out roll and I say CRAP when I throw a 2, 3 or 12. Most things in life are a gamble. Go with it and have fun.

Am I the only one that bought a computer only to see the price drop the next week. Did anyone buy a flat screen plasma last year for $5'000, now they are down to $1'999. My sexy digital camera was over $500 when it first came out. I bought it when the price dropped below $300, and six months later I saw it for $250. Sh&t flows downhill and so do technology prices.

PS: I bought my 950 & 770 a month before the price drop. I would like to have the extra $100 in my pocket, but I made the decision to buy and in the 30 days in between I've blasted the house with; Ice Age, The Matrix, The Fifth Element, Rumble in the Bronx, Star Trek Nemesis, Lord of the Rings & Cannonball Run.

PSS: I play the pass line. I get happy when I throw a 7 or 11 on the come out roll and I say CRAP when I throw a 2, 3 or 12. Most things in life are a gamble. Go with it and have fun.

Oops.

What a bunch of whining!! maybe I should complain to the grocery store since strawberries cost less this week than last week. Or complain to Intel everytime they drop the price of a CPU chip. Or now that computer memory costs less than last week, I guess I should have a hissy fit....... Gee, I sure hope the price of those spiffy Plasma TVs don't drop or it'll hurt the feelings of my brother-in-law who just bought one.

Turning to reality, what company shares its marketing strategy BEFORE they implement it? few, if any!! and there is no reason to expect it.

I bought an Outlaw component a few months ago. If the price should drop in the future, well, I got my enjoyment out of it for these few months -- and these months of enjoyment is what I got for any price difference - no grumbling.

Leave it to somebody come along and try to use logic to explain something!! haha kidding! The whole thing is quite ridiculous.

Jed,

Sorry, I was brezzing through forum and wanted to make a comment in a hurry and in general to the ones that were so upset. I picked one comment out of your statement without reading it all to catch the sarcasm.

Step into my little dinner theater. (you know my penchants)
“As good as it gets”
Carol: OK, we all have these terrible stories to get over, and you---
Melvin Udall: It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times,---- noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good.

I beg indulgence, - as my position as a early 950 purchaser may be coloring my opinion.

“1776”
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Revolutions come into this world like bastard children. Half-improvised and half-compromised John Adams: This is a revolution, dammit! We're going to have to offend SOMEbody
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Tell me, Mr. Wilson, when you were a judge, how in hell did you ever make a decision? James Wilson: The decisions I made were based on legality and precedent. But there is no legality here, and certainly no precedent. Dr. Benjamin Franklin: [losing his temper] Because, it's a new idea, you CLOT! We'll be making our own precedent!

They are a small company bucking the industry Old World business model. They will have to be judicious with their assets to remain viable.

“Black Adder”
Captain Edmund Blackadder: I, on the other hand, am a fully rounded human being with a degree from the university of life, a diploma from the school of hard knocks, and three gold stars from the kindergarten of getting the **** kicked out of me.
Edmund Blackadder: Right Baldrick, let's try again shall we? This is called adding. If I have two beans, and then I add two more beans, what do I have?
Baldrick: Some beans.
Edmund Blackadder: Yes... and no. Let's try again shall we? I have two beans, then I add two more beans. What does that make?
Baldrick: A very small casserole.
Edmund Blackadder: Baldrick, the ape creatures of the Indus have mastered this. Now try again. One, two, three, four. So how many are there?
Baldrick: Three.
Edmund Blackadder: What?
Baldrick: ...and that one.
Edmund Blackadder: Three and that one. So if I add that one to the three what will I have?
Baldrick: Oh! Some beans.
Edmund Blackadder: Yes. To you Baldrick, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?

Don’t sweat bean counting too much, have you EVER owned any electronic devices that increased in value, and does that state of affairs ruin your usage of these items? Ask your wives about missing (or hitting …..”but IT WAS on Sale”) the deals of life. It’s a dicey business and as a prior poster put, often like Craps.

“Black Adder”
Lieutenant George: Oh, sir, if we should happen to tread on a mine, what do we do?
Captain Edmund Blackadder: Well, normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump up 250 feet into the air and scatter yourself over a wide area

You can get upset about it but aren’t you over anticipating? If you gave them time to respond to your direct e-mails in private before broadcasting discontent and accusations of nefarious practices all over the site (knowing that a small company has asked for patience on response turnarounds during their large shows and times of heavy scheduling). Would that be the wiser more reasonable course? HOW silly will you feel if they do refund your money for purchasers whom are under 30 days (absolutely not implying they SHOULD). But the terse tiny apology I’ve seen men grudgingly grant Outlaw when [issues] that arise occasionally are settled is NOT NEAR enough recompense for what they suffer from chronic quickshooting lambasters.

“Mayberry”
Barney Fife: A dog can't get struck by lightning. you know why? 'Cause he's too close to the ground. See, lightning strikes tall things. Now if they were giraffes out there in the field, now then we'd have trouble

My public stance if (FORBID) Outlaw went out of business tomorrow, I’d still BE satisfied with my 950/770 and 950/750 and interconnect purchases. I CHOSE the products at the price I paid, when I paid it, - everything I purchase is instantly on the path to the end of its life span, or in middle of nowhere. My CHOICE is not invalidated because the next person pays less for what I enjoy. Otherwise I’d have to consider myself a fool. And please believe I put a LOT of research into the attempt of being a responsible cagey and well satisfied audiophile when I purchased Outlaw. JME.

“Lonesome Dove”
Clara Allen (Angelica Huston): Here, Mr. Johnson. Meet your son. (Hands baby to July Johnson, who tries to take the infant gingerly in his arms.) ……Well, that's a good sign. I guess you'd at least catch him if somebody threw him off a roof.

I feel that many here agree their purchase with Outlaw was a wise choice, if you ‘liked’ your 950 at 899, what’s changes your tune so colorfully at 799 in a turbulent economy?. Don’t let this lesson of free trade destroy the possibility of a beautiful relationship with your 950!

Hee, hee. I *still* think Outlaw should have *raised* the price Would have prevented all the whining.

Kevin, I can't believe that's actually starting to make sense!

Sanj

OFCCM, no problem, I just didn't want you thinking I was the dumbest person on the internet, which is still yet to be determined.

Its amazing, Outlaw tries to keep us updated on what they are working on and ask for our input and then people whine about when it will be released. Now they don't share anything with us. I can't believe some people are seriously upset and complaining about this price drop. Oh well, this is why I would fail at retail.

At least Outlaw is not alone.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=1595684#post1595684

SLL,

You are, without question, the best. I Bow to your greatness! Thank you!!!

pat----

Smart Little Lena -- Classic stuff, as always.



Yep, and try this thread to see the hot pokers in the eyes that Ron was referring to.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Dengor, this ain't strawberries, a product that you use and it's gone. :-P

This is a durable item and I'm talking about a 30 day price guarantee which many reputable companies provide. If Outlaw can't do that for their customers then their whole customer service line is a sham. Outlaw says they are a different kind of company... I say that is PR BS unless they belly up to the bar and prove me wrong. This will only help Outlaw, just think of the positive PR gained by throwing that into their ads! P.S. I won't gain a penny since I bought mine in March, no problem there, but for all those customers who bought in the past 30 days Outlaw should have some respect and do the right thing, give them back the $100!


Mike

As one who falls in that 30 day period when the price changed, I want to thank the self-chosen champions of our cause, but we know what they say about 'good intentions'.

While your efforts are appreciated by yours truly, there can be too much a good thing.

I could care less about the $100 price drop, if anything it should scare the hell out of the receiver manufacturers. I have had my 950 since January 2003 and have been overly satisfied with the unit. In my opinion, the 950 was a bargain at $900. A friend of mine dropped $2900 on a anthem avm20 and it is in the shop for the second time in 6 months.

For all those who have bought a 950 within the last 30 days or so and are whining about how bad you feel about Outlaw having the audacity to lower prices on the 950, why haven't YOU contacted Outlaw and asked about a price accomodation?

I agree that it would be a nice thing for the Oulaws to make a price adjustment for those who purchased a 950 within 30 days of the announcement of the price redudction, BUT they are not obligated to do so.

If you paid with credit card, some credit card issuers have a price protection feature.

------------------
the 1derful1

I have had mine for over a year and have loved it. I am not upset with the price drop. Outlaw DID drop 1050s price after a while too, what makes us think they would not do that for the 950!!! I would not mind a "better" family price on some 200s instead of fighting about the 100$$ wink,wink!

Outlaw will cut a check to those within the 30 day period, according to the first review listed at

http://www.audioreview.com/pscAmplification/Preamplifiers/Outlaw,Audio,Model,950/PRD_130685_1591crx.aspx

I've had my 950 for a couple weeks, I just emailed them about this.

I have enjoyed my 950 after a very long wait as many had to endure.. I , for one, find the price drop a "slap in the face". I think the Outlaws should have offered a merchandise credit, or something. Manufactureres have every right to lower there prices, but this was different in that we had to wait so long and even had to put our neme and CC number down because they are offering this product at an intro price of $899. I now , as much as I want the PSA cables will have to think hard about this. I believe this kind of marketing hurts a company more than it helps!

How long have you had your 950 Everett? How long is a company supposed to wait to drop a price on a product?
If you bought within the 30 days what are you worried about? Give them a call.
If not, why should they make an exception for you?
What is your comfort threshold? Want them to raise the price so you can feel better?
Guess I don't understand why this so different than any other merchanidse.

Everett, I am having a hard time understanding you? Think about this, you have owned the 950 for almost 300 days and now you want a price match? You know that isn't reasonable, even under the circumstances of the 950's release. The Outlaws just can't give us stuff for being loyal (they actually do with the family discount) as much as I would like that too. Your posts are usually insightful or, at very least, rational, but I really think you need to rethink your position on this. Sorry if this came off the wrong way.

Jed M: Whats not to understand.. they lied to us. "reserve your 950 now before the prices go up" I was on the list and waited about 9 months I recall/gave them my CC number etc... I dont fault others for buying this at $799, but those who waited so long, hiss problems etc. then, well we didnt mean it.. lets drop the price $100. Not good..I dont get upset with Toshiba for selling the 65HX81 for less than I paid.. but they did not make such a deal out of urgency to buy to lock in a price. Maybe Ill buy a couple of mono amps to go with my ATI2505. But, to me, this company rubs me the wrong way.....

Everett, where did they say prices were going to go up? Can you post a link because I never saw it?

I can understand your concern, but Toshiba a long established company, and has very entrenched policies. But they do bend. In fact refunded me $300 for a 2 month out-of-warranty complaint, because I thought it was unreasonable for soemthing to go out that soon...sorry, I digress..
the world of audiophile equipment is much different than a large based consumer electronics manufacturer.
Maybe Outlaw did not project the response to their new product would be as good as it was. And they worked with the customers to take care of the hiss problem, etc.
They were also very generous with 30 day customers on the price drop for the 950, and have continually offered deals on multi-item purchases as well as the 'family' discount.
I find it hard to hold one misjudgement on their part against them, or see it as a blemish against a company that produces quality products at a very reasonable price.
You have to look at whole picture, and sure there will be scenarios where your particular situation offers no big advantage for the time you put in. But it is your money, and how you spend it is entirely up to you.
I would imagine Outlaw may back off on reserving orders for new equipment in the future, if it does lead to customer complaints.
I have never been one to jump on the bandwagon anyway, prefer to wait for new models to be proven on the test track of other users first. "You pays your monies, and makes your choices......."

Everett!

The deal was NOT reserving your 950 before price goes up. It was …..reserve at THIS price including the potentialy non-calculable effects 'demand' due to the ‘talk’ on the web, might have on the product…with limited early initial rollout which affects most new production lines. Your wait had the potential for being excessive, - if you did not get on the list earlier than later.

The whole “Hiss” deal cost me about 5 min of real time. (Or it least it felt like)…… I WASTED a lot of time on the forums about it, only because the topic of Outlaw was my down /leisure/ play - time of the moment.

In reality ……I had three 950’s shipped here …purchased 2 of them. Had sound going ALL the time, after the arrival of the first unit. Outlaw spoiled the heck out me!!!. Made the whole process SO MUCH EASIER than standing in the 32-person length line to return/exchange a defective unit at my local mega “Frys” storefront. The service per customer time averaging 6 to 20 mins, standing there has always been slower than oil paint drying. The last time I heave ho’d a computer monitor into “Best Buy” , they lost it and it took 3 months to get it back.

Outlaw (god they trust us all…course they have that little credit card # hanging over me, - if you DONT send it back). Tells me on the phone they are SO SORRY for the inconvenience. When I offer to pack up the first unit and ship it back …the reply is NO NO NO, just wait….we will get you a NEW unit out (imediatly)….THEN make arraignments for you to return the first unit.

If Outlaw would sell every item that could feasibly break in my household. HAVAC, appliances….My life would be bliss……..compared to some of the “fixes…return…repair…” scenario’s I deal with now!

Goofy me, (not because I had chosen it, - as best choice for me, - but just because IT was available) I almost got SO tired of waiting on my new pre-pro, 3 times I came this (-) close to plopping down (it was 2k or 3K? top retail) for a recently launched HK8000, and separate amp, - Just because it was sitting on a shelf RIGHT in front of me every time I walked in that store. (I’m an INSTANT GRAD type personality) Any returns or issues at this location would have involved….don’t have another new box unit….past 30 days, - gotta ship it back, and wait, and wait and wait. (Gee can’t believe they don’t run the equivalent of a loaner problem ..that Outlaw version of fixes gave me, HERE HAVE TWO UNITS SO YOU”ll only be down the cable swap time).

By the time I finally received my delayed Outlaw, I could have picked up the HK8000 for 1K less, - street!. Would I have felt bad. NO.
For it was part of the PLAN, I knew that most Super Receivers drop dramatically in price in under 12 to 24 months.

Depreciation, is the name of the game on most purchases. You buy what you like for the money you have available at the time. AND relax with your new sound/video, Your return is in enjoyment NEVER dollars.

I would not have felt (bad) about the HK8000 (in a pinch purchase) because I would have done it full realizing what was coming down the pike. I EXPECTED a big hit. Oh dear, my bargain Outlaw dropped a whole 100 dollars. What a depreciation.. (12 ½ % after owing it 2 years) Where as the HK during (just) the time I was waiting on the 950 reserve list (5 months -with the production delays), dropped almost 50%!.

I am looking to purchase (maybe) right now a Dell 8500. Am I aware that its been out a bit, and that the new flagship is on the horizon (rumored 8550 or 9500 or some such). And that right now I will still spend TOP DOLLAR for the Dell with the WUXGA Wide aspect.07 fine pitch screen, and that at the cycle point (on this model), when the new flagship launches I will start seeing greater promo’ and reductions on the (old) 8500. Additionally (it’s a laptop) easy to spen 4K today with a street worth of about 1K on it in possible 12 months!

Yes , I'll prob. do it anyway …because I (need) it now. But at least I know what WILL happen and will not be a bit surprised to see it come.

I paid SO MUCH less than several receiver/separates choices I evaluated during my purchase decision time (so kindly stretched out by Outlaw’s production delays that I REALLY had time to sort the choices out )

I DID GOOD! Sorry you feel regretful (Vs my over-joyed satisfaction).

Don’t mind the overlong spouty post…..she is stressed right now…and when she’s stressed ….she gets MEAN!

This Was a attempt to kiss the sting of that slap you received….hope it helps …to remind you that this purchase is subject to the same foibles as ANY OTHER we make…..with the difference …Outlaw treats their customers better during the process of these ups and downs than almost any other I can name.

JMLife


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited June 15, 2003).]

Hello Again: Im not going to repond again but will say this: I stood behind Outlaw despite all those early problems and went tho there defense against those wishing for them to rush production..repeatedly saying ..get it right..I will wait. Many of those who jumped on the Outlaw bandwagan have done so recently, some admitedly have never even purchased there products. But, I dont like being lied to...there is NO GRAY MATTER. Its either the truth or not. Its been over a year, but, even at 53years old, my memory is good enough to remember I received a Email, long sence deleted, that said that I needed to give them a CC # to insure that I get the unit at $899 before prices go up..I did and, like many others , I waited and waited until my time came. I dont blame, as I said, others who just got one at $799.. I feel, however, if Outlaw should offer something to us(and theres a lot of us) that was on that long list that paid the full price. Heck! I would settle for $100 of free shipping for future purchases. I cant compain about the enjoyment ive received this past year with by 950..I just expected a company that depends so much on word of mouth and service , to make a BETTER EFFORT to care for there customers. What is so wrong with that? Can others not see this? Is it wrong for someone to feel this way? I dont think so..didnt someone mention that Outlaw dod some form of merchdise credit on the 1050 before.. I , frankly, am dissappointed with them for not doing the same here..I expected it.... As Kevin has said, " I would raise the price $100 " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps it is the following you are referring to. It is a clever piece of "marketeering", an example of "...what would you pay...", but I do not think is says "order now because the price will go up." In fact, I think it is much the opposite.

If you are put off by Outlaw's marketing methods, vote with your dollars. I think everyone wants to buy from a viable company. There are a lot of good companies with great products that don't make it because of poor marketing. Outlaw can be a little "pocket fisherman" at times, but I think there is an important difference in that they deliver an excellent value for your dollar.

Excerpt from the Jan 2002 news letter:

We have to admit we're amused by all the speculation about future pricing on the Model 950. When we first announced the "Introductory" price we used that phrasing to protect ourselves in case we found that the cost of the final unit would be such that we might have to raise prices after a few months. While anything is possible, we do not see any major pending price increase, and in any case we will honor the $899 price for everyone who places their name on the reservations list. That's all. As to some of the speculation about our pricing plans where some people say a major increase is coming, we find that hilarious. It's nice to know that some of you think that people would pay over $1,000, and its performance will certainly justify a multiple of that price, but it has always been the Outlaw way to deliver value far in excess of the retail price of our products."

In spite of reading all of the above posts and the reasoning with them, I just can not understand the dissatisfaction with Outlaw in regards to their lowering of the price of the 950. Maybe I am not the kind of person who will resent someone else's good fortune.

Those who begrudge Outlaw for the delay and teething pains in regards to the 950 BEFORE the price reduction are at least consistent when they continue to have negative feelings after the price reduction. Those who were not dissatisfied prior to the price reduction and who now are dissatifsied after the price reduction because of the price reduction (regardless of past issues rekindled) have no sympathy from me.

As is the case with technology items, the price of existing technology decreases, or, for the same amount of money, you get more.

I bought a computer box back in 1989 for about $1.2k. Just the case, cpu, memory, power supply and hard drive. It had an Intel 486 50MHz (not a dx2, it had a 50MHz memory bus), the fastest available at the time. The cpu alone cost $700. The little shop I bought it from in Palo Alto, CA was really lacking in technical skill. After the delivery date came and went, I went in and showed them how to configure it properly.

A few weeks later, the 66MHz 486 came out, and came out for less money than the 50MHz version. I did NOT expect an accomodation on my recent purchase in spite of the poor service this company gave. I understand that when I took delivery of my purchase for the agreed upon price, that was that. I still had my 50MHz 486 based system and it still worked fine for many years.

When Outlaw first announced the 950, the may have had a general idea of what the selling price may be, even though the 950 itself may not have been finalized. They do not know what they will need to charge a year or more down the road. Many compontents that are technology driven, such as DSPs, logic, CPUs, and such are initially priced based on recouping the R&D costs, not the cost of manufacure.

Other components, whose R&D costs have been recovered long ago, such as resistors and capacitors, transformers, diodes and such are priced based more on the cost of manufacture (or what the market will bear).

In the case for all components, the price will be affected by what the competition is offering and charging for it.

In the case of the 950, once the cost of R&D, of the tooling and setup charges for manufacture, have all been recouped and if the costs of the components, licenceing fees, actual manufacturing costs will allow, the price to the customer might be lowered.

I am glad that Outlaw has lowered the price of the 950. I hope that their cost for the 950 has went down by a similar or more amount because companies need to make money to stay in business to bring us new and ever more wonederful products.

Paul

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the 1derful1

[This message has been edited by Paul J. Stiles (edited June 15, 2003).]

Everett, I was on the list for a long time and if you want to know what day I received my 950 click on my profile and see the date I registered. I have been through it all so I know where you are coming from and because of that I feel I can assure you that they never said the price was going to go up, ever. In fact, I am sure that you are alone with that recollection (anybody else remember? speak up now). Maybe it was just a private email only addressed to you because I doubt anyone else will recall Outlaw telling them that. Who knows? I've been wrong before. And if you still can't see it our way, all I know is the better Outlaw's bottom line is, the cheaper I get my products, so in that way their success is more advantageous than 100 dollars in shipping credit.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited June 15, 2003).]

Well, at first, I also did have the impression that if anything, the 950's price would go up. But geez, that was over a year ago! Times change and economics change too.

Hey Kevin,
Couldn't you use the $100 to defray the cost of your new Lexicon?

message deleted by poster.

[This message has been edited by fmcorps (edited June 15, 2003).]

Who'd of thunk saving the old newsletters would be worthwhile ...

From the 17 July 2001 newsletter:


And from the 18 October 2001 newsletter:


Notice the phrase "subject to change without notice".

------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

speak now or forever hold your peace. That line always sends a crawl up my back at a wedding,....I'm always waiting for a "The Graduate" reaction from someone someday.

Everett, I See your displeasure after your last post more clearly now.

You think Outlaw over a year back? enticed you to purchase NOW, before price went up. Without having a hardcopy of every purchaser’s e-mail responses, I can’t guarantee that some such wordage was not on yours: (lock in price). I just pulled my own hardcopy emails I printed from my early order days with Outlaw, (would attach them but the files have been cleaned out of the computer). And none of these mention submitting my CC# to lock in the price.

Comments about the CC only concerned locking in my reservation which:
1) they have the right to cancel
2) they have the right (during early shipping-back order) to limit to one unit per purchaser
3) I have the right to cancel during my ‘window’ when notified that my reservation # has queued.
4) They required submission of the CC# to hold my reservations but clearly stated no charge would appear on my CC until I have been notified I can order, and confirmed that I still desired to place this order.

I was just happy Outlaw did not go like several other purchases I have dealt with. Specificily some major car part purchases ranging in cost from 400 to 3500. As soon as ordered was placed these were charged to my card, although receipt of the products were always delayed anywhere from 6 weeks to (Literally in one case 6 months).

I TRULY don’t think Outlaw was pulling the slimely car lot deal, (this offer is good if you buy RIGHT now, …TODAY…tomorrow morning I won’t be able to do this amount).

The terms “Introductory” I see pasted over most new products/ads. I was one of the (way to much time to kill) posters (if I remember) in one post actually theorizing out loud on the possibility the 950 MIGHT go up in price. Hence people like me causing the “newsletter” response “We find it amusing” that JJ99 just cut and pasted.

I truly wondered if it would. For a time there was a feeding frenzy about the 950. And back then I remember thinking I it could be 50, 100 or 200 dollars possibly. However I never expected a price increase to occur after a short while of musing on that subject, as I was watching combined effects on our economy of , 9-11, the pending war, the Enron fiasco, the stuttering Stock prices, Airline crunch etc. across America. In fact all these factors should make a company like Outlaw SO much more attractive, when consumers watch and worry about the future.

Reading some of these quotes I remember (way back when) some days thinking the price would go UP, and other days it WILL go down. I bet Outlaw hoped to push it up,,,, but competition for market share is just going to get tougher…you will see…(I expect) more and more ‘deals’ going on around AV. And as mentioned in this thread earlier, there are some other brand owners out there who are unhappy about price reductions. I just feel it benefits us all, (if things don’t drop too far too fast, …bad sign for industries) I choose to order Outlaw for the sound and performance, - but Outlaw is also JUST the kind of company I would turn too when times are lean if I was attempting to factor frugality in my non-essential purchases.
I think although ‘price’ is the topic that’s bothering you right now….you made a VERY wise choice as regards the COST of keeping up to date with AV current tech. I’ve felt AV is [really] getting close to the dramatic instant depreciation effect of buying each latest update for your computer, which makes a company like Outlaw (who cuts the middle man) that much more attractive. I get really tired of taking those extremely DRAMATIC price hits, although my “have it now’ personality can lead me into these.

I do ‘remember’ thinking “might they go up?” But if I had felt that Outlaw might go DOWN in price in a year or two ( or even 3 months) and I [was] paying the highest retail early release price (when demand was high). It would not have stopped my purchase at that price at that time. I was WAY past ready to buy during that period. I thought the 950/770 combo was a GREAT deal at its release. Wow……what a stunner at the ‘new’ price, - for what you get!

by the by,...Happy Fathers Day to all "Dads"!

Fine points, Lena. Imagine living in bliss, courtesy of ignorance, in owning some high end gear that you paid too much for to begin with.
I see little 'quibbling' room with Outlaw. You would be in dire straits searching for equipment as good for double the price (discounting clones) let alone trying to find anything half as good that is cheaper!
Sometimes the optimum point is near the bottom of the price scale. Enjoy it! You are among some great folks here!



[This message has been edited by DaleB (edited June 16, 2003).]

Since we are up to three pages on this topic, I just had to add my two cents. This is NOT K-MART! Stores like this offer a 30 day price protection policy because what they lose in one area of sales they make up in another area. In case you didn't notice, Outlaw doesn't have the same inventory as K-MART. Sure, who wouldn't want an extra $100 in their pocket? But this is a company with a small selection with reasonable prices, so why is anyone complaining about a small reduction in price? If you want to complain, then take on the automotive companies whose product significantly depreciates by thousands of dollars just by driving it off the lot. I always appreciated the lowering of prices on CD players, the invention of the boom-box, cheap all-in-one box hometheaters. This brings technology into millions of homes and fuels the home electronic industry which in turns puts more money into further development. I for one am glad Outlaw lowered their price, it may put more 950s into households which in turn gives Outlaw more revenue to further advance their products.

Outlaw has always been the Kmart of the separates world. Nothing wrong with that...they've found a niche!

;-)

Mike

Isn't that a bit self-depracating? I know I would not spend any time on a forum at a KMart website, even if they sold A/V equipment.
It's the customers that also 'make' the company. There is a niche because there ARE customers willing to overlook a 'pretty face' and lots of hype in favor of equipment more favorably priced with essentially the same performance. And while it may be a matter of opinion, great customer service besides. Of course you can go to places where they will roll out the red carpet for you, give you a coupon for starbucks, and all for a heavy toll. But here you are ...

Hello All,
It's good to be back (?). Once again I've read an incredibly exausting thread. And once again I've heard great things and some crap. Crap is relative and logic is not. And then again, crap can be logic relative to one's understanding. Lest I wax philosophic, I will proceed. Soundhound, Miss Lena, Sanjay, and others, well done. Yes, I have my two, or three, cents to include, but you've already done it with great eloquence.
For some people, the only way to be taught is to be shown. Let them hear with their own ears, and let them be the judge. With a thirty-day guarantee, nobody loses.
The choice is theirs.
As Always,
Mix
P.S. Anybody got the number to Intel?
The latest processor just came out.

Hello All,
It's good to be back (?). Once again I've read an incredibly exausting thread. And once again I've heard great things and some crap. Crap is relative and logic is not. And then again, crap can be logic relative to one's understanding. Lest I wax philosophic, I will proceed. Soundhound, Miss Lena, Sanjay, and others, well done. Yes, I have my two, or three, cents to include, but you've already done it with great eloquence.
For some people, the only way to be taught is to be shown. Let them hear with their own ears, and let them be the judge. With a thirty-day guarantee, nobody loses.
The choice is theirs.
As Always,
Mix
P.S. Anybody got the number to Intel?
The latest processor just came out.

Outlaw has always been the Kmart of the separates world
MIKE, you cracked me up over that analogy!

TALK TO THE HAND.
(that means STOP, I strongly disagree)

If you were a girl (in Dallas) you would get this one (but I’ll try to translate for you!)

When I go to Loehmann’s I can pay $128.00 for a shirt. (very well made and special)
I can go to Neiman Marcus and pay $325.00 for that same shirt.

But what I can NEVER NEVER DO…is find that shirt at K-Mart (or anything the caliber of Outlaw)!!!.


Mix. HI! Intel Cust S. toll-free at 877.649.5817. Hey Mix, are you up on laptops? If so can we start an off-topic in Outlaw to Outlaw?

Little Lena you're not so smart because you didn't get the essence of my post; so I'll translate for ya :-) Outlaw delivers a decent product aimed at the bargain shoppers of the Home Theatre World. In my opinion the 950 is a good but not great Proc.
But for the money... it delivers. No debate there. Just as Kmart, Walmart, et al provide basic no frills
products for their specific customers. Outlaw is a good bottom of the line product. Why are all Outlaw owners so defensive?...maybe having second thoughts?

Mike

Actually, Mike, I think Smart Little Lena did get the essence of your post but disagreed with you, hence the response:



She also offered an excellent analogy explaining why she disagrees, which I will not waste bandwidth trying to improve on.

Oh, and as for the "second thoughts" -- heh-heh, not me. I'll be hanging on to my 950 and 750 for a long time to come...

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

As was said, there is nothing in K Mart of this standard.
Maybe buying the same Acura part for cheaper at a Honda dealer would be a better analogy.

Little Lena you're not so smart
Truer words were never spoken.

you didn't get the essence of my post
crystal

{excellent} product aimed at the bargain (and audiophile) shoppers of the Home Theatre World
edited to reflect personal opinion.

In my opinion the 950 is a good but not great Proc
Disagree with your opinion but only due to the fact that I have my own opinion.

Walmart, et al provide basic no frills products for their specific customers
When the 950 launched it had what other processors DID NOT have. (now admittedly this step is easy enough in the broadest terms due to the fact that a “latest” model anything normally carries the newest abilities per its genra which is not to be confused with the quality of the implementation). Two yrs out the 950 is a heavy contender in the most current pack.

Outlaw is a good bottom of the line product.
I can’t even count the number of products I would rate behind the 950 in the Que.

maybe having second thoughts?
Yes. Matter of fact: During my second thoughts purchased a second 950.

Mike, messing with you don’t want to be confrontational. Just disagree with your opinion. I should have used a automotive analogy (I will remember my location next time) Something ‘men’ can relate a little easier to.
The wealthiest woman I knew (growing up) shopped at K-Mart and interspersed purchases from that location with her higher-end from boutiques. Everyone naturally assumed (she was rich wasn’t she!) she paid a fortune for everything she and her daughters wore.

Where the clothes analogy is still very appropriate (for my tastes )is the fact that she knew how to discriminate between junk with a designer label and what was quality regardless of class. And she knew when the weight of the cotton and loom weave on a simple T, was higher thread count (and better quality) than a lessor quality “designer” version. She also knew when the $4 dollar T (Vs the premium $6 dollar T line at K-Mart) would shrivel up, - never to be the same size nor wrinkle free after its first laundering. She shopped judiciously, but she (or I) could never get the 1000 hand-sewn crystal embroidered evening gown with 100 % natural silk lining at K-Mart. I see a difference between having money to shop anywhere and shopping only by name (or popular trends) and guarding that pocket book by shopping for quality without prejudice towards what or whom provides it. Thus my choice of comparison.

I think (just my life now!) that Outlaw is more a company for those who have time for research, torridal transformers, quality of crossovers, filters, resisters and chips Vs faceplates and feature set (stated very clearly in the broadest terms right on the box (or website) for those in a hurry)

How do you like HDTV (assume you would not live without it since you add it to your moniker).
I find it very gratifying!

Some well made points, but the fact is the 950 was a flawed product from the get go. It was released without adequate beta testing. Hence the hiss problem and LFE fiasco. It also has what I consider flimsy construction. The on off button is almost Fisher/Price quality. The in/out jacks on the back are not solid, they are loose compared to other Pre/pros. The finish is cheap. The noise floor is only adequate especially on SACD/DVD audio. The tuner quality is laughable. But hey ya get what cha pay for. And I ain't complainin just pointing out the facts! Heck my 950 had to be returned because it froze up the first time I tried to use it. But their customer service is good. So all in all for $799 it's a good deal it just ain't great.

;-)

Mike

adequate beta testing. Hence the hiss problem. What is adequate beta testing? Hiss reared its head only on a few systems. What do you theorize are the conceivable multiplicity variations on a possible HT rig. Is that how many beta’s should be hired and system configs tested. Pi times what?

Are you referring to the DTS-ES fix?. Yep that was a real BIG fiasco, noticed no one even noticed (including professional reviewers/beta testers/ and self-styled audiophiles), until massi2u
brought it up and posted almost 2 years after launch. Outlaw had a ‘fix’ in place within something like 19 business days from original query by consumer to posted official fix. I do agree ….I LIKE their service!

It also has what I consider flimsy construction. Mine is so much lighter than all those DVD chassises out there! Take that amp section out of the super receivers and see what you end with.
Edit: cause I did not like my prior sentence, - was not Mac to Mac, I find construction quality perfectly comparable in its class (pre-pros)
The on off button is almost Fisher/Price quality. Only stands up to a 3-yr old? Good thing I use the remote!

The in/out jacks on the back are not solid, they are loose compared to other Pre/pros.
I’d guess you got a ‘bad’ unit. Rock solid and high quality are the reviews I’ve seen and the condition of the 3 units I’ve had. In fact they held up very well when I mistaking tried to rip out my ‘locked’ barrels one day. (whoops- that was early days with locking connectors!)

The finish is cheap. I like it (and green is the color of money) but right now I’m in my black developmental stage. Hate those high-end silver jobs, messing up my whole black theme. But I know someone who shops first for ‘Silver’, he likes silver right now. I used to love brushed high-grade thick aluminum plates, in fact, Outlaw IS kinda responsible for me heading towards the ‘dark’ side now. I noticed my flat screen type LCD floated above all black components in a way I preferred over silver drawing the eye down and away from the video.

The noise floor is only adequate especially on SACD/DVD audio. There are bench-tested units that beat it and bench tested units it beats.
I put it in the same class as the ‘digital teeth’ effect of Digital processing Vs old analogue tube lovers when digital first hit the scene. Because analogue has infinite variations upon increments of possible electrical replications on the chart. Vs the jagged teeth effect of the exact ‘stops’ of digital, which would be either on or off one of the stops. Till digital could process a greater number of these points out of all possible. (to me) There was a cold mechanic's to sound in early digital processing Vs Analogue. I much preferred the analogue with its higher noise floor. Personally regardless of the spec, I truly am happy with the end result the 950 puts out (end sound of)

returned because it froze up the first time ouch!, that sort of thing ruins my day!.

Mike! I do believe you and I are in a shootout! Woodrow to Gus "Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I'm concerned. I'd like a chance t' shoot at a educated man once in a while." Time to remove my “The Red Violin” CD and insert a Ennio Morricone score. It exhilarating, but I’m going to get in BIG trouble with my professional deadlines. Look in later!. Take care!.


Edit: Gus (that ole latin lover, - was speaking to Woodrow (a pragmatist) for “Lonesome Dove” dot your iers


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited June 18, 2003).]

As opposed to 'flawless' products from other A/V manufacturers?

As a long time user of Lexicon products I can tell you that if that company had waited till all the flaws had been worked out before releasing a product, they wouldn't have released a single surround processor; let alone any of their pro/studio gear. That's right: none (zero, zip, nada). And this from a company that whose reputation is built on solid engineering.

In the real world, there are no manufacturers releasing flawless products. The real measure of a company then is how they deal with any problems that may crop up with their products. In this area, Outlaw has stood head and shoulders above the competition. Do you know of many (if any) companies that have been more responsive to their customers? I once looked up the word 'fiasco' (I forget which dictionary) and the definition read: "spectacular failure". The hiss and DTS/LFE problems don't come close to being anything that severe. Further, both were dealt with as timely and painlessly as logistically possible. You've been doing nothing but "complainin" since your first post in this thread. If you want to call it something else, fine. But no matter how you choose to label it, one else is mistaking your baseless claims as "pointing out the facts". What's a better deal? Have you found surround processors that have more features and better quality for less money than the 950? If so, can you name a few? (Go ahead, I'll wait.)

Sanjay

Mike, I am strongly considering a 950. You state for $799 its a good deal not a great deal. What pre/pro do you consider to be the Great deal for $799?

Mike- Wow.

In the past 5 years, I have had A sony TA-E9000ES, the 950, and now a Lexicon MC-8 in my system. The 950 more than held it's own against both of those higher priced (and in the Lexicon's case, much higher priced) pre/pros.

Backside conectors: I disagree. DVD-A/SACD noise level: I disagree. The hiss problem: I actually consider this a win for Outlaw, because not only did they go back *once* and address it, but they went back again, even though at that point in time, only 1 - 2% of customers were complaining about it, and they finally fixed it once and for all. Comparison data point: Rotel is *still* shipping the 1066 with the double bass problem that you cannot not get around except if you open the unit up, voiding the warranty, and cut two resistors. LFE: again a win, because everybody got it fixed for free. *EVEN THOUGH THE 950 WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE SOFTWARE UPGRADEABLE.*

Cheap finish: I disagree. I thought it was very well built. I personally didn't like the green Fisher Price Power button or the rubbery volume knob, but neither of those items had anything to do with how it performed.

For it's intended market (young children), Fisher-Price is considered to be very high quality.

In it's intended market (value conscious cognoscente of audio-video playback equipment), Outlaw Audio is considered to be very high quality.

I find no objection in this comparison.

Paul

------------------
the 1derful1

Sanjay you are right! At the low end Outlaw is tops and it has no competitors at that price point. That's the beauty of Outlaw... they found a niche. Kudos to them! I would recommend the 950 if you are in that budget area. Seems like the political atmosphere here is don't criticize. Everything I said I stand by.

;-P

I would recommend the 950 if you are in that budget area.
I recommend a demo to any potential purchaser at any budget level. Particularly to any who like to upgrade frequently (for the savings) and to any who like to purchase for the long term (performance, sound par to satisfy indefinitely, if you upgrade in rare spurts)

Seems like the political atmosphere here is don't criticize.
Speaking purely statistically, I would expect an Outlaw Forum to be more highly populated with satisfied Outlaw purchasers (than not ) Last week a bunch of Lexicon ites came by for coffee, but mostly in absentee today. (and many of these own something Outlaw anyways)

For that reason when two opposing opinionated types come together for
Debate
/d"bet/ verb (-ting) 1 discuss or dispute, esp. formally. 2 consider, ponder. noun discussion, esp. formal.

Rule #1: It shall always be lively!

Everything I said I stand by. And so you should.

Forgive me Mike and thanks for the release from everyday worries during this point/counterpoint thread. Maybe its time for some of the Gunslingers to dump me in the watering trough. No tar and feathers Please!

Mike,
Your comments really show your lack of experience with electronics. When I read your 'flawless' comment I couldn't help but laugh. I use a much higher-end prepro and when I had it upgraded it went back to the factory twice before it was 'flawless'. People are speaking a lot of good sense to you, you're just not listening!
Mix

Miss Lena, I do know laptops. Contact me.
J

That's really not a fair (nor valid) criticism, especially in a thread where people have taken the time to address your complaints on a point by point basis without resorting to any name calling or ad hominem attacks. For the record, some of the strongest criticisms of Outlaw Audio have come from owners of their products, and in these very forums.

Sanjay

Miss Lena, I usually mosey on in for the atmosphere, though I'll admit the Saloon does brew a nice cup o'joe.

Sanjay

Mike- See that's just it. For example, if the 950 had Logic 7, I would still have it, even if it did still did cost only $800 or $900. So I think the 950 does reasonably compete with gear quite a bit more expensive.

It's OK to stand by what you think, but let me ask, what other pre/pros or receivers have you directly compared it to in your system?

And not to dwell on the "flawless" thing, but it did take Sony about 18 months and 3 software upgrades to get the TA-E9000ES to the point where it should have been when it originally shipped, and maybe Sanjay can comment on the fact that even Lexicon with the DC-2/MC-1 ended up with software at the version 4 level, so they weren't flawless when they were originally introduced either. The 1st version of the Anthem didn't ship with DPL II or DTS-ES, Rotel and the double bass problem, the B&K Ref 50 and the high freq digital electronics whine, etc, etc, etc...

To all

This thread is beginning to look like an AVS thread where equipment bashing is the sport of hifi champions. I bought my Outlaw 950 and 7100 amp because I drive a 200 HP Mustang and not a 350 HP Corvette. However I do not go around bashing Corvettes because they get me from here to there for a hell of a lot more money and gas than my Mustang. I bought Outlaw products because they are different and I like to be different. They are functional and serve the purpose that I bought them for. Bottom line: If you need to bash Outlaw go on over to the AVS form and do your thing. I was a founding member there and it is sad to see what it has become.
Regards,
TCIII

Well said TCIII! Wasn't this thread about the $100 decrease in the cost of the 950? What saloon are we drinking beer in now? This type of feedback is the exact reason I was against the "Your System" thread, it tends to turn into the negativity of the AVS forum. I still think the 950 is a good value for $899, and some lucky Outlaws get to have it for $799 now.

At $899 or $799 the 950 is an awesome A/V processor. If I actually could feel good about budgeting the money to buy the 950/7100 combo I would. At $1500USD that is a combo that would make 9/10 H/T users and audio/videophiles quite happy. But alas I really do not have the dispensory cash to buy such a combo. To anyone here who have a 950 with whatever Outlaw amp you should stop crying over $100 and sit back and enjoy one of the best A/V values for performance around regardless of price.

At $899 or $799 the 950 is an awesome A/V processor. If I actually could feel good about budgeting the money to buy the 950/7100 combo I would. At $1500USD that is a combo that would make 9/10 H/T users and audio/videophiles quite happy. But alas I really do not have the dispensory cash to buy such a combo. To anyone here who have a 950 with whatever Outlaw amp you should stop crying over $100 and sit back and enjoy one of the best A/V values for performance around regardless of price.

Mike makes a valid point. At first I was upset and then I started thinking about it and I just figured maybe I should hear him out; maybe k mart does make high quality/good value gear. Don't ask me why but I put my 950/770 up for sale and cruised out to K-Mart and picked up this high quality receiver/processor . I don't want to make an early judgment but for my initial review I will admit at first I was a little disappointed. It seemed as though the sound was compressed and a little thin. I called my K-Mart store and talked to the technician who sells their electronics. I was really impressed by the extensive knowledge the staff of KMart had dealing with HT. Unfortunately, after he went through a few steps with me and helped me calibrate my system/clock I still was not wowed by the sound. Before I was going to take it back I decided to try one last thing, so I changed out the power cord and all I can say now is WOW! What a difference that makes. The sound stage has completely opened up and it seems as if it could easily compete with units 3 to 4 times its price. The best thing about this unit is it has no history of bugs or flaws so I can rest easily knowing I have finally found the Value Mecca we all have been seeking. I will be doing a shootout against the Anthem next week so stay tuned for the results.

Jed M ... now that's funny... I eagerly anticipate your shootout review!

Would this discussion have even happened if the price drop was announced concurrently with the release of the 950's successor? I don't think so. I bought my first pro-logic receiver for $600 immediately after it was discontinued, it listed for $1600 before AC-3 came out. Today it's probably not worth more than $50. I think it's important to note that when you buy this type of equipment you are consuming, not investing.

On the other hand: A habitual upgrader who sells equipment before it is fully depreciated has to think about the cost of ownership. Since used 950s were offered for at least $799, the price of a used 950 definitely went down as a result of Outlaw's new pricing. And for this reason I can see why a certain segment of 950 owners are somewhat cross.

But, are you mad at the automobile manufacturers for continually increasing their rebates on new cars? This puts downward pressure on the price of the car you are currently driving. Could this and some of Outlaw's other moves been made more smoothly? Probably. Will I replace my Denon AVR-3000 with an Outlaw 950/770 combo when I have a dedicated HT room? Probably. Will I pay less than $2,398? Probably, if it's after the 950's big brother comes out...

I regret that I ever used K-MART in my comment. I never knew it would become so twisted. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? Large department stores have a vast and diverse inventory to make money from. Some offer a reimbursement if a product is purchased just before a sale. They can do this because of this vast inventory, what they may lose on one product they will make up on another. And some stores like K-MART end up in economic disasters. So what the hell does this have to do with Outlaw's product quality or customer service? The point is Outlaw doesn't have an automotive dept., sporting goods, clothing, etc. to draw from to simply say it will reimbuse all of us 950 owners $100. Is this economic lesson too difficult for some of you? They are a new company trying to stay afloat and doing the best they can. I for one am glad to see they are responding to tough financial times. This has nothing to do with K-MART's AV line or customer service.

JED. YOU ARE EVIL

...and it can stand up to a 3-yr old

I feel funny talking about this, after jumping all over Mike for his comments, but my objective, which was to say there is little in common with KMart and Outlaw remains the same.
Last week I was given an offer in regards to the price drop since I purchased a 950 just four days prior to the announcement.
Outlaw had me call them and made me a rather generous offer which was a choice of a credit refund, or more credit for a future purchase.
Then I get an email yesterday, stating that since I took advantage of the family discount, and that is no longer in effect, they will just refund half of the amount. No more for future purchases was mentioned.
Now, by itself, this is still a fair offer. What upsets me is the saying one thing and doing another. Obviously, they made a mistake and pulled back since I already had a family discount. Well, come on, they just said the family discount no longer existed, but if they can pay out less money I guess it still comes into effect.
Ok, Ok I am being a little testy about it. They are giving me some money back and I appreciate that.
But when a company errs in a policy decision, it should always err on the side of the customer. And I told them that straight out.
Am I pissed? Not really, I have a quality pre/pro and thanks to one discount and a refund, I saved some money. But would have liked the option on future purchases.
It is not always whether you do the right thing or the wrong thing, but 'how' you do it that can leave a lasting impression.


[This message has been edited by DaleB (edited June 19, 2003).]

DaleB, I have to agree with you. I am in management, my word is gold with clients. If I say I'm going to do something for a client, I do it, even if it is not always policy. The positive effects from keeping your word have incredible benefits, the consequences of not keeping it are devastating. Just think of all the AVS Outlaw haters that just read your post, this will definately add fuel to their fires. On the other hand, had Outlaw followed through with you, your post could have won over those who can't decide if they should invest in an Outlaw product. Like you, I still think the value of their product is great.