I'll let you know soon. My 950B + 7100 will arrive tomorrow. They will replace a 1050. I was hoping to have a somewhat direct comparison but alas I sold the 1050 within hours of posting it. It was pick up and cash paid within 24 hrs. Wow!! And after a year of trouble free ownership I sold it for 80% of what I paid for it. Cost of ownership for 1 year $99.

So I've tripled my cost and now have $1498 invested. Will I be able to sell them for 80% of purchase price in a year ... well, I believe I have a better chance than with a receiver from BestBuy or Crutchfield. And oh, If I really like one or the other I can upgrade one piece at a time.

I've never owned a receiver from Denon, Onkyo or whatever so I decided to see if I should have bought one rather than the 950B + 7100. Since I haven't heard the separates or the receivers I guess it's fair too look at spec sheets to try to determine the proper path. I noticed a few things. First the Denon etc. receivers have loads of features ... Unbelievable ... and they are lightweight too ... wait, that doesn't seem right. Turns out the AVR 3803 at 36.4 lbs. weighs 0.1 lbs. more that the Outlaw 1050. Lets see it sports seven channels all at 110 watts per channel. That's bigger than the 7100!!! What does the 7100 weigh ...51 lbs. Seems strange. But of course you would have to add a 950B to make it a fair fight ... that's another 17.6 lbs. For a total of 68.6 lbs.

What the heck since we're not listening to anything lets see what the cost per pound is for these set-ups.

Denon AVR 5803 List $1199 weighs 36.4 lbs. = $32.94/lb at $900 it = $24.73/lb
Outlaw 950/710 List (no discount)$1798 Weighs 68.6 lbs. = $26.21/lb at $1498 = $21.84/lb.

What about the top of the line Denon the AVR 5803 it lists at $4300 & is 63.9 lbs. = $67.29/lb

The other strange thing I notice in my silent comparison was the length of the warranty. All three receivers, the Outlaw, and both Denon's, even the one listing at $4300, have two year warranties. The separates all have 5-year warranties. So what's up with the receivers? Do the manufactures know something the buying public doesn't. Oh yes that extended warranty offered by the superstore. Looks like it's a good idea.

Take a look at the Denon site under support. It says:
"Check back here in the near future for all support and service information, including:
Warranty and Service policies and procedures"

Yep, the warranty isn't published for any Denon product. I found the 2 years listed at one of Denon's authorized dealers sites.

Man, I can't wait to get my Outlaw 950B + 7100.


[This message has been edited by Xyzfla (edited May 13, 2003).]

Interesting. I'm curious what Xyzfla will conclude once his new equipment arrives. I guess I'm still somewhat skeptical that there would be a $1200 difference in sound? I would love to do a side-by-side comparison since I wouldn't expect anyone who purchased the 950/7100 to say that the 1050 was better sounding..........

Well the 950B + 7100 have arrived. I'm impressed with the build quality. After hearing so much about the 950 "look" I must say I'm pleasantly surprised. And the 7100, what can I say, it’s built like a tank. How does it sound? .... might be until the weekend before I know.
To "armstrg" point I do believe the new equipment will sound better than the 1050. But if it doesn't back it will go. I don't expect a $1,000 improvement in the sound. I'm also buying increased capability such as surround processing modes, multi-zone, ability to place the amp where I want it, a more powerful amp with 1 more channel, an improved upgrade path and more.
The 1050, while I think it is a great buy had some sonic characteristics I am hoping (expecting?) will be improved upon by going to separates.

To clarify my previous (and brief) reply, when I replaced a 1050 with a 950, I was already using the 1050 purely as a pre/pro -- the 750 and Parasound HCA-800II amps that I am using with the 950 were already in the system. The improvements I heard were only related to the pre-amp and processing roles. Going from a standalone 1050 to a 950 and amp (be it the 7100 or the 770 or a stack of 200's) would offer the additional benefit of separate amplification. Like Xyzfla, I got a 950 in part to gain new features (surround modes, bass management, more inputs, better remote, ...) and to improve the sound of the system. What the dollar value of that sonic improvement and those additional features is depends on the person, of course -- I think I got my money's worth, but some people would probably think I spent entirely too much money on it all.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Kieran, I am a relatively new 950/7100 owner who did upgrade from a Sony receiver to these separates. I thought I would be hearing improvements but my penny-pinching wife just said HA! When it arrived, I played one of her CD's and brought her down to listen-- she couldn't believe how much improved it was-- she heard things on the CD she never realized was there!!

In regards to Xyzfla's poundage comments, I was just reading the latest Home Theater mag. (June 2003) where Mark Fleischmann (the reviewer) commented in his review of the Harman/Kardon AVR 325 A/V Receiver "... If I could condense everything I know about receivers down to four words of advice, they would be these: Buy by the pound. A heavier black box is more likely to house a beefier power supply, and that suggests greater dynamic prowess, among other benefits."

Hope this helps, and remember-- you have 30 days to test this combo IN YOUR OWN HOME AND SEE IF IT WORKS FOR YOU. If it doesn't, send it bacK!!

about a year and a half ago, i decided to try an A/V receiver. the first receiver ever to be in my rack.

first, was the onk 797. a terrible piece of hardware, IMO. next, the onk 898, which, after the pro-logic adcom pre (a really terrible piece of hardware), sounded pretty good and had many 'features'. i used it as a preamp, as i have 260 watt mono blocks and 12 channels of pro-sound amps. (this is the first advantage of seperates...the amps are forever, if minimal care of them is exercised).

the onk sounded a bit thin to me so i got in line for a 950 and, in the meanwhile (a LONG meanwhile), off i went to compare (outlaw 1050, marantz, H/K, denon).

i also looked at the other pre-pro of that time, the rotel 1066, but i simply did not like the business model of a manufacturer that protects a dealer who tells you that you shouldn't buy the rotel.

much has been said about the triple priced pre-pros superior too (oops) to...er...that's not it...oh, yeah...two channel capabilities. that's not why i bought a pre-pro, so it matters not to me.

i think the 950 is a hall of fame multi-channel pre-pro. movies are great, but multi-channel audio is it's strong point. DTS-CD, SACD, DVD-A. as far as a 'sonic signature' goes, i feel that the 950 is simply CLEAN. the only 'signature' point i personally would make is that of the low end. it's warm, full and smooth.

i'm positive that you'll hear a marked improvement in sound over ANY receiver.

to me...any sonic improvement is priceless. i'm as happy as i can be that i got that without having to choose from $3K pre-pros.

setting up your system to compliment the 950's strong points is important and that takes a bit of tweaking, as is the same for any pre or receiver. this is the place to come to get help in doing that. the 950/(amps) beats ANY receiver. i stand ready to be proven wrong.

i'm interested to hear your conclusions...let us know and good listening!



[This message has been edited by bossobass (edited May 14, 2003).]

Good discussion. I'm Anxious to hear Xyzfla's honest /unbiased opinion on the 950/7100. Wouldn't this debate be a great CONTEST for the folks at Outlaw??

950/7100 vs. 1050

Wow.

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. I was this >><< close to pulling the trigger (how's that for Outlaw colloquialism?) when my girlfriend and I decided to spend 9 days in Europe this July. Cost: ~$1500. So, the 950/7100 may have to wait... Although I'm still very tempted. The benefit of having a quality multi-ch amp like the 7100 as a permanent fixture in my system is very tempting. We'll see...

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-Kieran

I can relate Kieran, I've resisted until the last price drop. I really don't NEED (but that's not the point is it) the seperates I've enjoyed the 1050. I keep telling my wife the Outlaws made me do it.
As an update on my new setup .... the equipment is in place ... all cables are attached (I found it works better if the cables ARE hooked up correctly). All seems to work. It's 1:30 in the morning and right now I couldn't tell the difference between the best setup and a clock radio ... sleep is in order. Serious listening, and I assume some break-in of the electronics, will have to wait.

My suspicions are slowly materializing concerning this debate. I'm ALMOST convinced that the 1050 is pretty close to being sonically equal to the 950/7100. Aside from the flexibility/expandibility the 1050 seems like the better value?