This is my first bout with the audio dropout problem, but last night I had three episodes while watching the new Harry Potter DVD. The audio would drop out for several seconds, and the display would flash different labels. For instance, it would change from DD+CRM to DD-ES and back. Anyone else having trouble with this disc?
Thanks,

I watched this movie the other night and had no problems with the audio at all. Enjoyed it very much.

Don

I haven't watched it yet, but I expect that I will be very soon (it's sitting on the shelf at home right now). I was a bit surprised to learn that Warner re-introduced the EX flag that caused so much trouble for several receivers about a year and a half ago (some Onkyo's with an early method of generating a surround back channel and Outlaw's 1050 if the surround back speaker is disabled in the speaker setup). If it is switching from "DD-CR M" to "DD-ES" then it's definitely re-acquiring the digital audio signal. I wonder if it's related to the problems some of us have found with Panasonic players cutting off the digital audio on DTS-ES soundtracks at layer changes and when skipping chapters? Did the dropouts occur repeatably at the same points in the movie? Mrs. gonk and I will certainly keep an eye out for it when we watch the movie.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Well I have been getting dropouts with increased regularity myself. It started about 3 weeks ago and has since gotten worse and it has even happened with my CD player using a coxial cable.

I am going to call them (Outlaws) tomorrow.

Good Morning,
I'm using a Panasonic CP72 and optical cable which has been glitch free. I haven't checked repeatability for the problem yet, just wondering if the dropouts were occurring on anyone else's system.
Still waiting for my new Eprom card too.

Scott just emailed me concerning this. Apparently I failed to notice that HP was an ES encoded disc, was using the Cirris overlay when I should have been using DD-ES. I kind of figured it was a disc problem per my first post but it turns out some moron with poor eyesight was responsible.
:-)
Scott, thanks for the help.

Not quite - its' 6.1 is Dolby EX not DTS-ES.

MM- It shouldn't matter whether you use EX decoding, simple DD, or DD with CES to watch Harry Potter. The decoding algorythm shouldn't have anything to do with drop outs... ??

It shouldn't, but if Potter is using the EX flag that gave so many non-Dolby 6.1 surround decoders fits last year it is possible that flag is still creating problems?

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Gonk- I guess that's possible, but then the only time that should arise, is if/when the 950 loses and then tries to re-acquire the signal, and then maybe then it gets confused. But then it shouldn't be losing the signal in the 1st place, unless it's a dirty disc, across a layer change with a player that takes too long, skipping ahead or back chapters, etc. I suppose it'll be curious if the dropouts go away when he changes the DSP mode... Before I did the Eprom swap, I did play a DTS-ES movie with DTS-CES, and no problems, but maybe that's completely different than DD/DD EX...

I agree wholeheartedly -- a flag issue shouldn't cause dropouts like this. I had a 1050 at the time the EX flag problem first came up, so I was very curious about the problem even though it didn't affect me (I had a surround back speaker on my 1050, which prevented it from exhibiting the problem). Never did hear a real complete explanation of the issue (which would cause 6.1 receivers with Dolby Digital support and EX flag recognition capability but not official Dolby EX decoding, since it wasn't available for licensing at the time), but there was something about the EX flag used on those three discs -- and now on Harry Potter -- that would cause receivers to drop out spontaneously every few seconds. Unrelated to layer change, chapters, or any other event that would cause the receiver to have to re-acquire the signal.

Whew! That was a longer reply than I intended. I am pretty much taking a shot in the dark that the EX flag has anything at all to do with it, but since 1050 users have discovered that the dreaded "problem" EX flag is back , I wondered about it.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I think it's also entirely possible that Dolby and DTS have some programming inconsistencies in the way they implement these flags which can cause problems with particular hardware combinations.

Or the producers of the discs aren't following protocol. (I don't have the Harry 2 disc yet, so I have no specific experience there.)

When a PC program has bugs, you don't blame the hardware. Same rules should apply in the computer tech that drives HT these days.

Good morning all,
Thanks for the discussion. I haven't had time to go back in and see if changing from DDm+cr to DD ex is the culprit or not. I should have noted the passages. I suppose it could be a long layer change, but 3 on one disc? Also remember that the display changed briefly, so that doesn't sound like a layer change. Could just be a funky disc. I watched "The Transporter" in straight DDm+cr last night with no problems as usual.
Thanks,

[This message has been edited by minuteman (edited April 19, 2003).]

For what it's worth, we watched Chamber of Secrets a couple of days ago. I let it default to DD+CRC (rather than DD-EX) just to see if it caused any problems. It played back flawlessly, no dropouts.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I'll post a quick follow up too. Can't remember the flic, but I watched a recent one with DD-CRC. I *did* notice that the 950 did lose and then reacquire the signal at the layer change, but, no dropout in the audio.

So you guys use DD-CRC and not DD-CRM?
I only tried DD-CRC briefly, and thought DD-CRM was the way to go.

For Cirrus Extra Surround, Pro Logic II, and NEO:6, there are both "C" and "M" modes for "cinema" and "music" -- the idea being that "C" is better suited for movies and "M" better suited for music. There is likely some personal preference involved, but in general I've stuck to "C" for movies and TV and been fairly pleased. I haven't used any of those modes much at all for music, but did recently tinker with it a little and felt like I could hear some benefit to the "M" mode.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

What gonk said. I use the C mode for "normal" movie sources, and the M mode for things like concerts on DVD.

For broadcast TV I use PLII-CRM. Started off with CRC but found CRM gave me a better center channel. I also found that switching from digital to analog for ABC's implementation of DD5.1 improved center channel dialog on programs like Alias and Dragnet. ABC's implementation of DD5.1 causes way too much surround bleed through to the center channel. The bleed problem doesn't occur on the other networks.

On another forum I read that Jim Fosgate also prefers PLII-CRM on stereo TV sound.

This is interesting. I use the music mode straight across the board. The one time I tried Cinema, I thought it was lacking. I will have to revisit that mode.
Thanks,

I'm not sure you are replying to my post. If so, to clarify, it *was* the music mode I was referring to. IOW, PLII-M = good and PLII-C = not so good.

I only get drop-outs when the 950 gets to hot. Do you have it in a cabinet? I bought an indoor-outdoor thermometer and monitor the temperature inside the cabinet. When the temp gets over 97 degrees the Outlaw starts to act up.


------------------
MeanGene's Home

You know what's weird? I am watching X-Men right now (processor on DD-CR-C)and am having lots of dropouts. Before this, I was watching some satellite tv and was having a bunch of dropouts, also. I figured it was the satellite, until the DVD started doing the same thing. I have my satellite receiver hooked up via optical and the DVD hooked up via coax. Something definitely is not right here.

I suppose it could be heat related. Though it was a little warm here today (62F), it wasn't any warmer than it normally is in my house and I've never had dropouts before.

I took a picture of my rack, but I don't think you can attach to these posts. I can email it to people, for comments, as requested.

I am not an alarmist and have been perfectly satisfied with the performance of this unit so far, but think this may require some looking into on my part.

Allen

Well, after some experimenting, it was totally a heat issue. I had my satellite receiver on top of the 950, to begin with. I moved it to the top of the rack and started watching the movie again. Sure enough, the dropouts went away. I have seen amps cut out like this before, but never a processor. Moral of the story, make sure you have it on a shelf by itself and have adequate air flow over the vents in the case.

Allen

I should also mention that my Sony DVP-875P and my JVC HRS-710u VHS player also start to show signs of stress when the heat rises, it's not just a 950 problem. This problem is being addressed in the Cooling Suggestions Thread

Also, check out my cabinet cooling Project web site.


------------------
MeanGene's Home


[This message has been edited by MeanGene (edited May 04, 2003).]

As a semi-disgruntled 1050 owner (with a WAF about going to 6 or 7 spearkers), I would love to have a clear understanding of whether the 950 can play Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets without dropouts in a true 5.1 speaker configuration with the 950 configured to playback Dolby 5.1. I am beginning to worry that this is only the first of potentially many DVDs that the 1050 cannot handle in 5.1 mode.

FWIW I would also like to know if any of you are aware of other equipment that cannot play this DVD properly. I haven't found a lot of discussion on the Internet forums that I follow about this being an issue.

have a clear understanding of whether the 950 can play Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets without dropouts in a true 5.1 speaker configuration with the 950 configured to playback Dolby 5.1
I own two 950s.
ONE: a full bore system. VA floorstanders for mains, and VA center speakers, small DT Cinema Pro 100’s and the one step up upgrade Sub from the Definitive Tech CP 100 line, for satellites and LF. Right now due to extreme spousal (handyman hat hung up) neglect (pout) I am running only 6.1 here, (the 7th speaker is sitting on a shelf unattended to).

SECOND: 950 setup, The hodgepodge extra system, runs 5.0. Two old 2’ tall Fishers (model #’s and specs lost in the mists of time) for mains, Def Tech CP 100 center channel and SL/SR DT satellites.

Neither setup has any trouble what so ever with audio dropouts on Harry Potters COS, nor any other disc played. (and I’ve played all the major blockbuster each seemingly coming out recorded closer to distortion tolerances than the last one) - through both systems. X men/JP/Matrix/ HP(both)/LOTR etc….

My opinion is this whole area is a case by case setup dependent issue, with an occasionally glitchy unit (pre-pro or receiver) thrown in to confuse the various base culprits.

I have noted last year, that speakers were definitely fried (it was in the various forums) by the first release of LOTR. (DTS and hot/hot/hot).

I have noticed units…receivers or pre-pro’s (any manuf) having ‘issues’ when pushed hard by these blockbusters, overheating, dropping out, flags, etc commented on to a percent by all users of current AV. These traced in each case back to [per system users cabinet/air flow component interaction disc etc basis).

I have had three 950’s cabled into my system, None have exhibited problems, and although I do not give my main system the airflow I would optimally like to, (for least heat, least stress to extend its projected life). I did work with the issue (addressing within reason) for my home and cabinet, and never having a negative reaction I assumed I’ve given this particular setup the lee-way it needs. I also pay attention to ‘web talk’ and caution users here. Any other product I purchased and installed or stacked would need the same attention to its tolerances when mixed with other products which will effectively change the problems on per situation basis. My 950’s (three) have exhibited a great tolerance for pushing the edges on heat (for me). These will however vary from you to me. What if your DVD player puts out 3 degrees more of temp than mine while in use. This affects the total ‘effect’ of heat in your system differently than mine.

I have a wood cabinet with perforated metal shelves for the interior, Front/Back open. But these shelves are CUSTOM to the unit’s place on them. So the front gives the net effect of a solid wall. Don’t tell Outlaw, but my 770 sits on a bottom shelf with a 1” head clearance to the next shelf above which holds my 950.
The perforated metal the 950 sits on, allows hot air to rise that one inch below from the 770 right to the base of the 950. BECAUSE of this, we added the side cutouts in the wood cabinet one adjacent to the 950 one to the 770. You can feel a breeze rising from these two side vents when the system is on for any length of time.

Pretty tight tolerances on heat (AND NOT RECOMMENDED) …the chimney side vents saves me…and all’s well after 2 years and 3 950’s.Heat can affect ANY component in your setup and these interactions I feel are very cabinet/component specific and you need to figure out what tolerance level, your stack/your shelves allow. In addition there is Common sense needed when playing the new blockbusters, per your speakers etc. The industry knows we perceive loud as good and race each other to put the biggest baddest ST out there. It’s ours responsibly to use moderation with these.

Personally I watched 950 posters for 2 years talk about the latest ‘wow’ DVD. Due to my own experiences (detailed above) and months of web talk. I do not believe the 950 has any problem (beyond the odd incidences in the industry, flag…..LOTR ... bad unit, Etc going on out there.

PS, Of the posters who blew their speakers with the LOTR disc, none owned a 950 that I saw. I guarantee my 950 would ‘allow’ me the capability of blowing mine up too, if I didn’t use some common sense with that disc and others borderline kin to it.

Bottom line, I have excessive heat in my setup (beyond recommended). Three 950’s have not exhibited problems with heat, any disc specific issues (beyond documented flag problem discs, nor have posters I have watched on the forums who critique the latest (X) blockbuster through their 950 system.

It has been {my} experience, the 950 exhibits an equal or higher tolerances across the board than some brands, - to some issues which do arise in systems. Heat/flags/disc SM at max recording, etc.

I have not seen specifics that have rounded the web on HP “Chamber Of S”, except for an issue with playing extras on Macs. There is some sort of encoding on HP COS the Macs don’t like.
The HP “Sorcerers Stone” disc did have issues in some peoples AV setups traced back to finally a studio release of some discs with one version of Copy Protection and other discs without it (or just a different version as according to the studio all discs WERE protected one way or the other).

Could be we have two version of encoding (again) being tested by the studio on COS also which could cause one system to glitch with one version of the encoding while that same version of encoding does not bother another system. ( and the two versions of disc on market as was SS can confuse the issue more).

Here’s an issue which can get you a repeat error performance out of a rental disc depending on player.

“The DVD-RV32 performs quite nicely. Additionally, the disc stabilizer system is supposed to make slightly warped discs easier to read. This feature should come in handy if you rent a lot of DVDs, as rental discs can be badly handled. Even discs with rental clamping area stickers (i.e., bar code stickers) are mostly playable (see picture). Sometimes these stickers causes some DVD players to lose grip of the disc, resulting in difficulty with play back (dropouts) and even loss of play back capability. Other times, the stickers can be applied unevenly, throwing the disc's balance off. The DVD-RV32's disc stabilizer feature handles these cases with little difficulty. It certainly does much better than my aging Sony DVP-S7700 DVD player. Kudos to Panasonic”
Excerpt from following
http://timefordvd.com/hardware/review/Panasonic_DVD-RV32.shtml


And here’s a helpful list of current players with reports of problems (dropout’s etc) experienced by some owners with discs in general:

http://www.dvdfile.com/software/glitch_gallery/hardware.htm

Not impossible but I would not worry too quickly about Outlaws 950/1050 not handling any disc even with a couple of reports…this stuff takes a bit to iron out, and I see it again and again (usually traced to something else).

My 950 Owner's Manual only says adequate ventilation. What is the "beyond recommended" point in degrees.

Lena: Thanks for the two detailed replies. I am still waiting with semi-bated breadth for an "official" reply from Outlaw on the 1050 problem with dropouts. However, as I mentioned in my original post in this tread, I haven't found any mentions on any forums about dropouts like the 1050 is experiencing and I am not alone from the posts on that forum.

As for heat build up, I think this is higly unlikely, I have my system on an slanted, open metal racking system, so that the front of each item is 5-6 inches back of the item above it with plenty of vertical clearance as well. Finally my 1050 is on the top shelf (to get the clearest path for the remote), while my parasound amp is on the bottom shelf. Ambient room temperature in the room is under 70 (24x7), this time of year as I live near the beach in So. Cal. and it seldom ever gets above 85. My biggest problem is rust from salty air.

FWIW, I had no problem with LOTR on my system.

That can be a huge problem. I have seen circuit boards where the pins of the ICs were literally corroded through by the action of salt air, and the IC was just hanging by a few slivers of the pins. Keeping the room closed to the extent that you can will help to some degree.

My biggest problem is rust from salty air Can you hear the ocean? I hope to hear one in a few weeks! It does not sound like heat, as a possible, would factor in your system.

beyond recommended..in degrees Have never seen a recommendation stated (in degree) for the 770. I Just used the term ‘recommended’ in the generic sense of how much room you should give any high current amp. Outlaw lists air space above it at 4/6 or 8 “ (?) and as much ventilation as you can arrange for it would always be good. Which I try not to think about as you noticed mine is way off!. Very relieved to see it handles it, I still want to move it to the upper shelf ..above the 950 since heat rises, but the husbands worried about the shelf tolerating the weight. 770’s are not exactly svelte. Top heavy is not an issue since this cabinet only rises 21” from floor.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited May 11, 2003).]