i've said it before, and i'll repeat...rick, it's good to have you here. though your search seems to have no particular goal in mind, or you just enjoy the upgrade hunt (actually, the stage one is your first REAL upgrade, from the previous equipment list you post) more than it's end (what i refer to as being 'itchy'), i stand to gain from your posts. that's always a welcome thing.

i just can't read the parts of ANY pre-pro review that center on '2 channel performance' with all those 'thin, open, fast, tight, wide, harsh, smooth, bright, warm...', well, you get the gist.

who buys a pre-pro for it's 2 channel performance? no one with sense. none of them, at any price are 'audiophile' quality in this arena.

if you want soundstage and depth and clarity, etc., dvd-a/sacd/dts-cd are the formats to review. these are the best of the multi-channel formats...the ones that really matter.

try to follow this:
if '2 channel' is the bulk of your listening enjoyment, the 950 is the obvious pre-pro choice. with the rather substantial monies you save, you can buy a good cd transport and stereo preamp (the player being the most important piece in the cd 'chain').

it makes much more sense to purchase a used stereo pre, as they've been around forever and have been documented as to performance nuances and engineering principals from every conceivable angle, so your 'deal' is predictable as to outcome.

at ces, i heard a $60K pair of signature phoenix speakers by calix. the cd was specifically selected, as were the cables, pre, amp and player. it sounded as good as i've ever heard a stereo cd sound. but...it was still, unmistakably, a stereo cd.

to contrast, i heard a multi-channel sacd (through a sony, off-the-shelf player) at spectron/von schweikert's room. though spectron's class d amps are pricey, the system was still much less dinero. the sound was remarkably better. use any words in the english language to descibe the sound. it was just remarkably better.

you may argue how many people still prefer stereo cd, how much hardware and software is out there, yadda, yadda, blah, blah. the stereo cd is a dinosaur. it is not why i would buy ANY pre-pro. as i've said, i have a 30 year old bob carver, a 25 year old crown and a 12 year old macintosh stereo pre, any of which easily rival the stage one's 2 channel performance.

the point is, we all have specific reasons for our 950 purchase. because we were very specific in our reasons, we are mostly very happy with the purchase. for me, cd performance had ZERO to do with it.

analog I/O is the reason for 'no aragon for me'. i'll wait. the lex MC12B is the only existing pre-pro with what i really want. but, get real with the stupid price. straight-up trade? DONE. otherwise, i'll wait. outlaw will have it soon enough, at a price i'll pay. a lot more multi-channel software will be available by then and better uni-players will be here, too. (maybe even one from outlaw).

each person in this forum has his/her reasons to prefer the 950. trying to convince them that their reasoning is grossly flawed is a pretty dumb move.

now you know why my first post was the short version answer. the above is strictly my opinion. as we say, YMMV.

ricky..i would really like the opportunity to demo the sunfire ultimate...i can't find anyone who has it in stock..i would appreciate the info..my email is: cappy24@optonline.net

I said I wouldnt respond but a couple of the last posts have actually been level-headed..

First, Thanks Boblinds for defending my beloved NHT's..there not the best speakers out there but I love their characteristics.

Bossobass,

You bring up some valid points about sacd etc. Ive had two sacd players (sony 555 and 775)..I really loved the sound but the problem was that the selection of music is just so small that I got frustrated everytime I went to tower records/best buy and saw nothing new. Maybe someday there will be more selections but I doubt it as Joe six-pack doesnt give a hoot. I currently have a dvd-audio player and am having the same frustration..

Secondly, you mention two channel as though it is worthless. I HIGHLY disagree. CD's for the most part do sound harsh etc. but there are some very well recorded ones out there. Also two channel for me is all about albums (yea thats right) the superior format and I would argue just as good as scad or dvd-audio in many cases. I picked up 500 albums for about 150 bucks, hell it took me 10 times more money to buy that amount of cds (I dont even want to mention the price of sacds)..To my ears, a good turtable setup in yes (two channel) can be unbeatable...Ive found the aragons bypass to be the best at getting out of the way then any pre-pro Ive had before (truly).Its built around the aragon arium (spelling ?)..which is a highly respected stereo pre..I agree thats theres better choices out there but keep in mind that imo the aragon makes an excellant stereo pre alone...Now dont get me wrong, I wouldnt mind getting a high end tube-pre someday either..Untill recently I didnt think you could get a ht processor that could double as a good stereo pre either (but I have since changed my mind)...You dont know what your missing if you never experience it and thats the main reason I try different equipment

I thought my denon 3801 sounded great never harsh etc...untill I tried the denon 4802..thought it couldnt be beat untill I tried the Lexicon..I KNEW it was the best....untill I heard the aragon...where will it go ? I dont know but it will be interesting. Being close-minded is an easier path but not as rewarding.

Wow!!,the only trade you'd make for the 950 would be for the mc-12 straightup ?...hmm, well to each his own I guess



[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 08, 2003).]

Dear boblinds:

Please forgive me for piling on the NHT's. I believe you made one of my main points, abet more directly. Actually, I do not dislike the sound quality of NHT's, but my personal tastes have led me to choose another speaker. I am wed to the B&W sound contour and other associated sonic characteristics, so when I said I was biased, I was really telling it like it is. After almost 20 years with various B&W speakers, I find that my tastes have evolved with their product line. Although I have owned and do listen to other brands; at this time, I would not choose another speaker, no matter the price.

All the sonic attributes that Ricky used to distinguish between the Aragon and the 950 pre-pro could easily be said of any speaker, and with even more intensity. I strongly believe that speakers, their placement, and the rooms' acoustical profile will have significantly greater impact on overall system quality than the differences between any two reasonably qualified pre-pros. For the many contented Outlaws, the 950 qualifies to this end.

As Ricky felt at home in this forum to denigrate the 950 on it's home turf, even to the extent that he provides counsel to potential 950 owners about the alternative products that he clearly believes leave the 950 in the dust. "Thin, harsh, narrow soundstage, shallow soundstage, lack of detail, poor rendering of female vocals"... these are not terms of endearment.

Given his own clear and aggressive opinions in this forum, he could not tolerate even the suggestion that his choice of speakers might have the same sonic limitations when compared to others. Ricky's retort, " Hurl all the personal insults you want. And attacking NHT 3.3s?". Woooooo baby; when the shoe is on the other foot, don't we get sensitive.

It is just as simple as that. How dare one suggest his devotion to his speakers might be as subjective as our selection of a pre-pro? This is a 950 forum so he has diplomatic immunity? For all those who seek to find the silver lining to Ricky's obsession, may I suggest the new French Outlaw 950 forum.

best multi-channel discs:
sacd: spyro-gyra: 'in modern times'
various (great) musicians: 'celebrating the music of weather report'
james taylor: 'hourglass'
pink floyd: 'dark side of the moon'

dvd-a: yes: 'fragile'
[other folks can insert their favs here]

dts-cd: sting: 'brand new day'
alan parsons: 'on air'

dts music video: eagles: 'hell freezes over'

the titles are growing in number, with a lot of good titles arriving this year of stuff that's being written and produced for the formats. i agree about the first titles. i'm not much of a classical or acoustic jazz fan, but every collection has to start somewhere.

to clarify: i don't think stereo is worthless, just no comparison to a good hi-rez, multi disc. my point was that i wouldn't judge a multi-channel A/V pre very much by it's stereo ability. i know that many disagree, but i mentioned it to give some insight as to why i like the 950. it's superb for sacd/dvd-a, and has built-in BM for those formats. the price is the best-in-class...period. the warranty is the best-in-class, and it's solidly backed by a good company that listens to our comments and responds. this forum is the best-in-class.

i choose to wait for the next-generation...which is coming soon enough...rather than to pay 3-4 times the 950's price, only to find it's outdated in less than a year.

i still have every piece i ever bought, in excellent condition. i'm a patient guy, and time passes very quickly. i ain't a used equipment kind of guy.

truthfully, to me, the b&k, aragon, rotel, parasound, anthem, etc. class of pre is only worth $1500-1800. they're way overpriced, largely because the manufacturers know how short their lives are.

i understand where you're coming from, JT. to repeat, aragon is a great company that makes great products. so is outlaw audio. each product to a specific target, each of it's own time, each with it's own set of reasons to buy it. otherwise, there would be 1 company, 1 model.

and...belated welcome to the saloon, where the house drink is magaritas (by the pitcher).

Cappy,

You have email.


AGAssarsson,

I am actually not all at defensive about my NHT 3.3s. You say whatever you want about them.

There are sonic differences between B&W 7NTs and your N803s, right? What words would you use to describe the weaknesses of the 7NTs (if you did an A/B demo)?

bossobass,

Those old stereo preamps in your closet must be indeed nice. Integrating a 2 channel preamp into a HT system could be cumbersome though without unity gain bypass...even harder to use if some of those old preamps don't have remote controls

Hey, were you at the NYC show last May? I was there, the multichannel from that VonSch/Spectron room was quite nice indeed. Of course, most of the gear there was shown in 2 channel!

If one preamp has a better analog section and/or lower noise floor than another, you don't think that could affect dd/dts sound quality? Or the quality of analog sources such as hi-rez 5.1 sacd/dvd-a?

[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited April 08, 2003).]

AGAssarsson,

Your arguments and comments just dont stack up. There were no claims made that the nhts are better then other speakers costing 3 times as much. Of course speakers have different characteristics and are most important along with room/placement etc, Heck my 10 year old son knows this. The sonic values of different speakers are usually explained in terms of sonics and yes, using words like warm,bright,harsh,smooth..and would you believe this (some ARE better then others!) wow thats a revelation..

A pre-pro may not have as much impact as speakers but it DOES have a major impact. The better your system is the easier you will detect the differences. I wouldnt put pep-boys tires on a lexus. If your happy with the 950, thats great!..but contrary to what the majority believe (not all though) on this forum, there ARE better sounding pre-pros out there..If I had the 950 and liked it, I would say so..also thats its a bargain at its price, I dam sure wouldnt make claims that it is the equal sonically to superior units..JUST like I dont claim my nhts match 10,000 dollar speakers..You can say two channel is not important to you, so you didnt take it into account or it has everything YOU need or looks arent important to you or whatever...thats fine, I have no problem with these statements, we all have to make choices that are best for us(my soundstage doesnt have dd-ex or dts-es)..Thats because my room is small and I would rather have pure sonics and thats my choice. I surely wont make the claim that the aragon will best theta, mc-12 or whatever as the difference is.. I know were My gear is at on the "food chain"..



[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 09, 2003).]

Actually,his comments stack up very nicely!
Nobody says there aren't better sounding pre/pros out there,but you will encounter with the "diminishing returns" much sooner,then with speakers.For instance the difference between my soon to be "ex" mains Def Tech BP10 and say the Vienna Acoustics Beethovens,the price differences are roughly the same as the 950 and Stage 1.Which upgrade do you prefer? The room correction,and acoustical treatments,can be a lot less,or more depends on the room,never the less it's far more important then swapping electronics,something most of the "audiophiles" fail to address,or "understand".
Also lets quote MSRPs in context to reference,and not "Krazy Eddie" ones.

I just had some thoughts I would like to add to this post:

The way ears hear details can be influenced greatly by what your mind is thinking. If I want to feel that my system is providing me with a great soundstage, I listen for certain sound cues and go, "Wow, what a great soundstage." If I feel in the upgrade mood and think it might be time to "improve" my system, I listen again for certain sound cues and go, "Damn, I thought my soundstage was wider than that."

This could be why I take all reviews, wether by users or by magazine editors, as general indicators of if a product can function or not. If I find that more reviews provide favorable opinions of the product, I make an attempt to go listen to that product. If my ears percieve that they like it and it fits into my system, both with technical ability and being in my budget range, I buy it.

My main problems with Ricky's review are that all of his conclusions are based on factors that in no way can provide a unbiased view of the product. He is an owner of one of the products being compared which alone disqualifies this from being a fair review. Also, this review was posted on a forum run by the manufactuer of the product that his review basically states is inferior to similiar products on the market. This review works fine on a general forum but not here.

As I said before, these are just my .02 cents on this post. Take them as you will.