A friend of mine had a few days left before he had to return his 950 back to Outlaw (he bought the AT Clone and uses an Anthem Pre2L for his 2 channel listening). I thought why not? This is a good chance to try the Outlaw in my system for a couple days. I did a few comparisons the past 2 nights and one day of listening.

My system is:

Speakers:
NHT 3.3 mains
NHT Audiocenter 2
NHT 1.5 sides
NHT Superzero rears
NHT SW3P passive rear/LFE subs (2)

Equipment:
Aragon Stage One
Parasound 2200II 250x2 Amps (2)
Parasound 806 Amp (sides, rears, 1 sub)
Parasound CDC-1500 CD Carousel
Panasonic RP91 DVD

I had the Aragon Soundstage about 6 weeks before the Stage One (which is about a week old). Before the Aragon, I had the Lexicon MC1 for about 14 months, and the Onkyo 989 about 8 months before that; both excellent performers. Before the Onkyo, I had....well, let's just say my wife tells our friends that our dining room was a UPS shipping outlet for over a year I've had the Parasound amps about a year, and before that a combination of Citation 7.1/5.1 amps for ~ 2 years. Before the Citations...well, my house was a UPS shipping outlet

OUTLAW SETUP

The 950 is pretty easy to set up. Remote is not bad, it is a pain in the ass to have to switch back to the Audio input (950) after selecting other source inputs. Distance settings are too basic though: one setting for both mains, one for center, one for all four rears, and none for the sub. My four rear speakers all vary between 4 and 8 feet from me. Most of the 5.1 processors I've own (at least 10) had distance settings for each inidividual speaker. Also, Outlaw is to the nearest foot; the Lexicon MC1 was to the nearest ~ 0.3 foot, and the Aragon Stage One to the nearest inch.

DVDS (OUTLAW VS ARAGON)

The Outlaw sounded pretty good, with decent dynamics and good LFE. However, compared to the Aragon, the Outlaw sounded a little thin and was harsh at high volumes; the soundstage not as cohesive or big. The Aragon has better, more room filling bass, with superior resolution/detail and never sounded harsh. With the Aragon I notice people's breathing and lips moving. I did not notice this with the Outlaw.

2 CHANNEL (Outlaw vs Parasound CDC-1500 changer)

The Parasound has older 18bit burr-brown dacs and hooked up both digital and analog to the Outlaw. I can A/B on the fly, and made sure the first note in each track was 80dB. Using the Parasound's dacs, the soundstage is deeper, wider, with clearer female vocals.

2 CHANNEL DAC (Outlaw vs Aragon)

I hooked up my Panasonic RP91 via digital to both prepros. And inserted an analog switchbox so I can A/B on the fly (without switching cables). The difference was astonishing to me. Compared to the Aragon, the Outlaw's soundstage was narrow and not as detailed. The female vocals were centered, but seem to dominated the rest of the music. The Aragon produced a much deeper, wider soundstage with clean, rich vocals, and more prominent bass. This is more night and day than any of my previous cdp/dac tests. Perhaps because I am also comparing 2 channel preamps, and not just the dacs.

I buy most of my gear used, so I like to judge prices with used values on the market. A used Outlaw 950 is about $750, a used Stage One about $2600. To match the Aragon's 2 channel performance, one would need to add a 2 channel preamp with HT unity gain (ie, Adcom gfp750 for ~ $750) and spend $500-800 on a used dac. This wouldn't bridge the sonic differences in HT though, as the Aragon's preamp/dac extends to all 8 channels.

The Outlaw 950 is a good performer at its price point; it gives you the new surround modes and 5.1 inputs. However, for pure DVD/DSS playback, a Lexicon DC2/MC1 (going for 1200-1900 used) would beat it in surround processing, flexibility, Logic7 soundfields, and detail.

LOL, Ricky, you kill me. Thanks for the update. Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

first...there is no comparison of the 950 to the soundstage...unless you eliminate dts-es, dd-ex and use external BM on dvd-a/sacd.

the stage one, however, is a great piece of equipment. motorola 56367 dsp chipset, though a few years old, is used by anthem, b&k, meridian, cary audio...all good companies with good products.

i believe the dacs are the same crystal dacs found in the 950.

spoke with jim hunter, klipsch's chief engineer, at ces last january about the stage one and other aragon products. great guy...great company. paul klipsch was one-of-a-kind.

what about dvd-a/sacd? analog BM? if you get a chance, rick, would be cool to know how they compare.

in the end...4 gees. lesser warranty. no stage one forum. newer stuff on the horizon. it's just not that much better than the 950. gonna hang around with my 950 to see what the outlaws have cookin'.

BTW...it's great to have you here. you're a smart guy with tons of great info.

bossobass,

I tried sacd/dvd-a about 18 months ago and got out because the software selection was weak. I'll probably order some dvd-a titles this week. The Stage One's 5.1 inputs is pure, with no bass mgmt.

Klipsch.com does have a forum for their Klipsch and Aragon products.

I am not saying: go out and spend 2600-3200 on a Stage One. Just writing up an A vs B demo, which I've done many times on many different products. However, I think if one is willing to hit the used market (in the 1200-1700 range), there is gear that would provide improvement in their systems over the 950 if listening preferences are skewed. For example, if someone is mostly DVD/DSS/7channel-CDs, a bunch of used Lexicon DC2/MC1s will be hitting the market in the next few weeks with the MC8/MC12 upgrade program. And it would be dealers selling most of these traded-in units (safer to purchase from).

Or if someone wants great 2 channel via digital and analog, a used Aragon Soundstage goes for 1250-1400 (with option to send it to Klipsch for $800 full digital/7.1 upgrade). The Soundstage with the smart jr or parasound cse 6.1 devices will convert the Soundstage's excellent 5.1 into 6.1/7.1; no DPL2 or DTS-Neo though. And all prepro prices I listed will only get lower as time goes on (depreciation!).

'Cuse all the way, Baby!!

Ricky,

Outlaw has proven that they are patient and lenient to a fault in allowing posters unbridled rein but personally I have long felt that you and a few others, are taking advantage of that situation due to your stated unhappiness with Outlaw Customers and prospective Customers countless Posts which offended you, before the 950 was ever released to purchase.

I know your consuming desire and personal crusade to place the 950 in its place as regards the AV hierarchy and how cost should equate to sound. But please consider that this is an Outlaw customer’s forum. Your review of your demo of the Outlaw (borrowed) to the Aragon (which you own) is not inappropriate, and I for one am always interested in individuals tastes as relayed in Head to Head comparisons I read in general forums.
I am assuming you own at least one (an ICBM maybe? ) or intend to purchase an Outlaw product shortly?


I’m sure if you stopped to consider your collective posts recently here in the Outlaw forum and in other forums and contemplating a bit on the motivations you previously indicated are behind your stated credo that Outlaw Owners should be forced to realize that in your decided opinion the 950 could not and (should not) be the equal to any pre-pro costing 3x as much. I believe as a rational and fair-minded individual you should recall that Outlaw has asked that other products not be promoted and hawked in OUTLAW’s forum which is after all set up for the convenience of Outlaw owners. It’s rather bad cricket, in your last post on this page to suggest multiple alternatives to purchasing a 950. (Unless you’d like to take on the costs and responsibilities of this forum)
If you were unaware of the polite request to refrain from promoting competitors products in the Outlaw forum. I think it would take little insight, rather should be self-evident that the proper place to promote those items would be in their respective manufacture’s individually provided forum, or in the many general AV forums, which are available to you on the web.

A gentle reminder (I hope) for you to reflect on. I am very happy that you are enjoying your Stage One, and wish you many fine hours of listening pleasure.
Sincerely, MMS


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited April 06, 2003).]

I cant believe the last post. Talking about going to far, and to suggest Ricky wouldnt have the integrity to do a true a/b is lame. If outlaw has a problem with somebody doing a true a/b of their system and posting then let THEM say so, unbelieveable..

Anyway great review Ricky, you unlike others did a true comparison the right way. If some dont like the outcome so be it. I cant say it surprises me though espcially the two channel comparisions. As far as movies, well lets just say it would be darn hard to beat the sheer dynamics/lack of noise of the aragon (which should beat it by the way)..It sounds like the 950 is a nice unit though and definatly worth the price of admission.

It would be interesting to see if anybody has directly compared the 950 to the Sony da4es for processing only..

I'm afraid MMS is correct - Outlaw DID request that restraint be used in promoting other products on this forum, and I don't blame them. I think a more general interest forum is the place for this. Obviously the vast majority of users of this forum own Outlaw equipment. that's our choice, and if you think we're a bunch of fools for our taste in products, well you are entitled to your opinion ELSEWHERE. You are preaching to people who have voted for Outlaw equipment in the most compelling way possible - with our checkbooks. I'm sorry you can't come to grips with this seemingly illogical (in your eyes) state of affairs.

This "newbie" to the world of Outlaw find it interesting to see how the 950 is compared on this board.

First: I have yet to see an apples to apples comparison... Are there no apples for less than $1'000?

Second: When it is compared it seems to do pretty well. I am new to the world of separates and my room is an accoustic train wreck so spending an extra $2'000 to get a smidge more is just not worth it. Even the earlier post mentioning buying used still costs 25 to 50% more.

Third: Well, I do have to concede that the Outlaw unit is a bit fugly (at least what I can tell by the pictures on their web page). Mine will be sitting in a stack of other black boxes where it can't be much more ugly than the others. Really, how ugly can a black box get (well, I suppose you could put a bunch of gold trim on it).


I have yet to receive the 950 and big fat 770 that I ordered so you will all have to wait for my review. In the mean time everyone may continue to review, criticize and recommend to your hearts content. The different opinions (good/bad, right/wrong) has helped me make my choice, and in the end I put down my $2'500.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnTompkins:
[B]I cant believe the last post. Talking about going to far, and to suggest Ricky wouldnt have the integrity to do a true a/b is lame. If outlaw has a problem with somebody doing a true a/b of their system and posting then let THEM say so, unbelieveable..
___________________________________________

though it's actually pretty funny to me to watch someone burst in here to proclaim our second class preamp status, (even though the dude actually owned an onkyo receiver and admits it), i enjoy rick's posts, he has good information and he can spell. and the stage one is a very fine product.

JT, on the other hand, seems to follow 'ricky' around like some sort of head nodding cheerleader. now that rick has the stage one, jt, whatchagonnado? alas, there are no used bargains yet on the stage one. maybe rick will lend you his and you can pretend you own one. or, upgrade that dinosaur soundstage.

the info in rick's post was not much of a comarison, told almost nothing about the stage one (other than nearest inch distance settings), mentioned no software titles, no dvd-a, no sacd, no dts-cd, what kind of dacs, how the motorola dsp has been updated, no HP points, slopes, I/O info, etc., etc.

but, then again, we already know this information. i discussed pretty much everything about the stage one with klipsch's chief engineer while he gave it a fairly thorough run through. anyone who comes to this forum only needs to ask.

if you're gonna burst in and tell us something...at least use some discretion. otherwise...well...how embarassing for you.

two channel...i guess that's the cool buzz-phrase for the 16 bit stereo cd format...seems to get proportionately way too much press when 'reviewing' a multi-format, multi-channel audio/video pre-pro. you may as well have compared it to a victrola. i have a few stereo preamps a few decades old lying around that will give the stage one a run in, dare i say it???...two channel.

anyway...jt...get a 21st century pre-pro, then come back and ask us about it. if you ask nicely, we'll answer. don't come where i live, talking down, and expexct not to get slapped around.

here's my review: the 950 MUST be better, because I bought one.