If you're referring to me, you're wrong. My beef was not with the fact that you had not heard the Outlaw on your own system. My beef was that you insisted that we had to hear different prepros on OUR OWN SYSTEMS to make up our own minds, while you were allowed to come to your conclusions based on hearing the 950 on SOMEBODY ELSE'S system. That's called a double standard.

You write inflamatory posts on a public forum for the whole internet to read then you complain that we have "some nerve" when we comment on your posts here?

Welcome to the internet. May want to check your closet for the "big boy pants".

BTW good job getting the Outlaw 950 in your house. I hope your audition was worth the time it took to hook everything up.

------------------
Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited April 08, 2003).]

for whatever my two cent opinion is worth, i agree 100% with morphsci...i take ricks review as a plug for outlaw...i am still undecided, but do want to take this opportunity to apologize for asking for comparison reviews....this forum is a great learning experience, and i thank all of you that have offered me your time and help...

Dear SLL, Soundhound & Countrymen:
and Ricky...

I have enjoyed this topic thoroughly. I have laughed out loud, often cringed, and really learned a lot about the human traits of the "audiophile community."

When I read Ricky's review of the "Outlaw 950 vs Aragon Stage One (in the house!!) I was stuck by his perception of the weaknesses of the 950. Compared to the Aragon Stage One, the 950...
1) "sounded a little thin and was harsh at high volumes; the soundstage not as cohesive or big"
2) " soundstage was narrow and not as detailed. The female vocals were centered, but seem to dominate(d) the rest of the music"

The Aragon Stage One had the following qualities by comparison...
1) " better, more room filling bass, with superior resolution/detail and never sounded harsh. With the Aragon I notice people's breathing and lips moving. I did not notice this with the Outlaw"
2) "using the Parasound's dacs, the soundstage is deeper, wider, with clearer female vocals"
3) "the Aragon produced a much deeper, wider soundstage with clean, rich vocals, and more prominent bass

Well... If I had any of these sonic shortcomings on my system, I would be devastated. Thin, harsh, narrow soundstage, shallow soundstage, lack of detail, poor rendering of female vocals... any one of these words are dynamite, but together... these are truly Weapons of Mass Destruction.

But, I don't recognize any of these devastating afflictions in my system configuration, which includes the 950. In fact, these are the very qualities that I am so impressed with... so I began to wonder why? What could possibly explain such contrasting observations of sonic quality?

Maybe, I thought, if Ricky's personal observations were indeed unbiased (as much as can be expected of any of us), there might be something other than the Pre-Pro... that these observations were made using his system, and more specifically though his speakers. And JT, does he have the same speakers? I think he does...

Of all the links in the chain of a quality audio system, I have always believed that it was the speakers (including placement and room charactersitics), the actual vocal cords of the system, that were the beginning, and the end of how every other part of a system configuration must depend. This is why I have asked Soundhound and SLL about their speakers in such detail in past topic pages.

From her posts, I know that SLL has a passion for her new Vienna Acoustics 'Beethoven's mains, and seeks to augment these with more acoustically matched speakers when she has the time and resources available. From what I remember, Soundhound has custom modified Klipsch speakers that have been an evolution of his tastes, his knowledge, and a labor of love to optimize through the use of specialty amplification and a very clear signal path. Both SLL and Soundhound selected the 950 as part of their road to sonic nirvana.

I own B&W Nautilus 803 mains and B&W CDM NT center and surrounds, featuring a metal dome tweeter design. The N803's have a very unique midrange driver (Fixed Suspension Transducer) which transitions seamlessly to the Nautilus tweeter at 4000Hz. To enhance the lowest end, I have 2 Velodyne HGS 15 Series II subwoofers. I like organ music, and the lowest pedal frequency is down at 22Hz.

Well... you can't buy this stuff on the internet, unless it is used. Through my system, Emmylou Harris' voice is beyond description, and the same goes for any number of sopranos, mezzo sopranos, or alto women's vocals I have enjoyed. These speakers are critically acclaimed for their extremely well detailed, spatial and balanced sound reproduction. The soundstage, in terms of width, depth and location, is nothing short of phenomenal. Vocals (especially women's vocals) are breathtaking.

So... how much better could it be... perhaps with an Aragon Stage One, or my preference for a Lexicon MC12 ???? I just can't say. But I can say that with the 950 in the signal path, the terms of art "thin, harsh, narrow soundstage, shallow soundstage, lack of detail, poor rendering of female vocals"... do not apply. Not in the least.

Which brings me to make a suggestion to those who seek to confirm the Outlaw 950 is the weak link in the chain. This is not meant to be cruel or judgmental, but please consider some alternative speaker configurations before you leap to these conclusions.

It is interesting to note that you can point, click and buy the latest NHT's speakers over the internet in a similar fashion that an Outlaw might order a 950. Selling products on-line doesn't mean that they are necessarily of lesser quality, but you have got to do it right. Outlaw does it right.

Finally... I must confess that I am very biased. I could not trade my B&W's for a pair of NHT's, not even if the NHT's were free. Not even if someone paid me.


[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited April 08, 2003).]

I thought this was the "950 Feedback" forum, and my review was giving the Outlaws some feedback on how the 950 sounds (against the Stage One)

I made up the review? You wish. It is what it is. After 72 hours in my system, I wished the 950....sounded better (compared to the Aragon). The 950 actually doesn't look bad at all; the grey finish matches my Xbox and Hughes DSS.

In this hobby where many folks constanting research new brands and products and the upgrade process can be continuous, some of the Outlaw crowd seems to be fixated on one brand, and feel that the sonic limits stop with the 950. The flexiblity of separates means that most of you probably have 7 nice amp channels connected to the 950, and some of you will find it easy to move onto other prepros in the future. Then, you may echo the sonic *improvements* I described in my review, that's what happens when one upgrades. Some Outlaw lurkers probably don't have any issues with my review, but they don't want to post against the MOB.

Hurl all the personal insults you want. And attacking NHT 3.3s? If any posters or lurkers want to discuss my review or alternatives to the 950/amps in similiar price ranges, feel free to discuss on other forums there will be alot of other folks with various experiences across many brands (perhaps a forum that is not sponsored by Outlaw like avsforum). See ya around......

Phillip,

No specific referrals to what you wrote in my posts in this thread.


Cappy,

I know a dealer in Long Island (near you?) who sells both AT (ie, Outlaw 950 clone) and Sunfire (perhaps less than 3k for a demo Ultimate receiver?). If you want to contact him directly and discuss both products for your system, shoot me an email. The guy has dozens of positive reviews (as a seller and someone giving advice) on audiogon and audioasylum).




[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited April 08, 2003).]

I still don't think this forum is the appropriate place for Ricky's comparison style; however, I don't think AGAssarsson
has identified a correct issue.

I have NHT speakers all the way around in my 950-based system and they sound just fine, thank you very much. (I also happen to have an Aragon amp in that system which sounds great.) So you just lay off insulting my speakers, AGAssarsson!!! (Glad you like your B&W's. They are nice, aren't they?)

More to the point, IMHO, is that Ricky's review is stylistically biased (like so much TV news, for instance). We don't have any standard here, just fatter/thinner, bigger/smaller etc. with the negative adjectives consistently applied to the Outlaw. It makes the Outlaw look like a loser throughout the review. Then, at the end, the writer "bails out" with a nod to the price/performance value of the 950. Unfortunately, that "nod" is impotent after the litany of negative-connotation adjectives that preceded it. (Even there, however, he can't help but assert that the 950 NEW remains inferior to another product that STILL costs $1000 more USED. See what I mean about his biased style of writing?)

Even more unfortunately, the price/performance ratio IS The Story where the Outlaw 950 is concerned. The 950 isn't the greatest pre/pro ever made; but for the money it's the best ride in the business and I'm glad I own one.

THAT'S the point, not some arbitrary comparison with another pre/pro that pretty damn well better sound superior at 4x the price.

I also object to the assertion -- in a subsequent post -- that Outlaw owners think Outlaw is the alpha and omega of HT hardware. I don't think even the Outlaws, themselves, believe that. We're not lemmings. Even so, Ricky's comments suggest that he's on a holy bubble-bursting mission. Sorry, my friend, but it's an unnecessary mission and, based on the comments here, an unwanted mission as well.

I AM interested in Ricky's thoughts, but I prefer to explore them on another site -- which is happening, by the way.

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited April 08, 2003).]

Did you put the Aragon in yours?

if so what did you think of the difference?

If we were lemmings, we would have gathered our friends together and piled into an SUV of your choosing and headed off to the nearest Bose store

“Some Outlaw lurkers probably don't have any issues with my review”
“but do want to take this opportunity to apologize for asking for comparison reviews”
Dear Cappy24. Don’t apologize. I don’t have any issue with Ricky’s posting a review, nor is this normal behavior in the Outlaw forum for those whom are new to browsing here. There ARE head to heads and comparisons discussed on this forum. Ricky got an unusually vigorous (and colorful) response because some longer term owners are very familiar with a handful of familiar names (like Ricky and John) whom after I assume peacefully being allowed their own RIGHT TO CHOOSE a product, - cannot tear themselves away from constantly refuting any positive reviews, discussions, or recommendations listed in any thread on the web which complements or recommends the 950. For some bizarre reason the 950 seems to engender much heated outrage from some posters, who rarely bother to comment on the multitude of other choices, owners are left in peace to purchase. The eye of the storm centers on Outlaws alleged reputation fostered by many of its purchasers when posting their opinions who had felt to their varying degree’s that Outlaw far exceeded its price bracketing in performance.
I feel, Ricky’s head to head was “not inappropriate” as I mentioned in my first post. It was a 950 in the demo.
My posts came after Ricky’s second posting in this thread. Presenting himself as a guest in a house. (we are all guests here). While telling all other guests to remove themselves to another location (the promotion of competitors products ie: his list of several alternatives recommendations, rather than any Outlaw product in an Outlaw forum).

but they don't want to post against the MOB Ricky follow my logic please. I am not a MOB. I am a strange ( ) individual female, who researched and deliberated and demoed and happenstance purchased a 950.
I deliberately and with malice of forethought CHOSE IT over other options. I entered the Outlaw Forum and Other Assorted Forums simultaneously. If after my personal journey through research, demo, I at this point capitulated to your desire to let you LEAD ME to a sonic upgrade. Thereupon I WOULD finally become a card-carrying member of a MOB. (Ricky’s Raiders).

And while I am sure you have admirable leadership capabilities, I being “too adventuresome to be briefly described” would make a very poor follower. You’d have insurrection, and mayhap the occasionally assassination attempt, and all sorts of messy bothersome activities to put down if you absorbed me into the Collective. Ricky, have you ever heard the saying “be careful what you wish for.”


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited April 08, 2003).]

Boblinds:

Nice long and well-reasoned post!

Practicing your typing?

No, im using an AT P2000 right now, and i happened to have the Outlaw for a few more days until my 30 day return period is up so we thought we'd take advantage of the situation and have Ricky try it out in his system. I haven't listened to both of them in the same system though and probably won't as the outlaw needs to go back. Maybe one day though we'll do a P2000 vs aragon comparison...